Trivia: Examples of local authority areas that border each other but have no bus routes crossing the border.

[stadler]

I recently noticed that East Sussex and Surrey have no local bus routes (i am not sure if they ever have in the past but i would be interested if anyone knows) despite bordering each other and having a direct road between them.

So it got me curious and i was wondering what other examples anywhere in the UK exist.

I am only asking about direct crossings. So for example East Sussex and Surrey still count because they have no direct crossings. But there are bus routes between East Sussex and Surrey that go via West Sussex to get there.

Also i am only really talking about first level county councils or second level district/borough/city councils or unitary authority councils. I am not really including parish/town/community councils. There will easily be over 1000 examples of those parish/town/community councils that border each other but have no bus routes.

These are the only examples that i have been able to find so far but i reckon that some others may exist.

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Examples where roads do exist but no buses exist:

• East Sussex County Council (first level county council) / Surrey County Council (first level county council) / 1x road crossings exist

• Wealden District Council (second level district council) / Sevenoaks District Council (second level district council) / 4x road crossings exist

• Wealden District Council (second level district council) / Tandridge District Council (second level district council) / 1x road crossings exist

• Crawley Borough Council (second level district council) / Tandridge District Council (second level district council) / 1x road crossings exist

• North Northamptonshire Council (unitary authority council) / Milton Keynes City Council (unitary authority council) / 1x road crossings exist

• East Riding Of Yorkshire Council (unitary authority council) / City Of Doncaster Council (unitary authority council) / 3x road crossings exist

• Calderdale Council (unitary authority council) / Oldham Council (unitary authority council) / 1x road crossings exist

• Cheshire East Council (unitary authority council) / Shropshire Council (unitary authority council) / 12x road crossings exist

• Enfield Borough Council (unitary authority council) / Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council (second level district council) / 1x road crossings exist

• Cumberland Council (unitary authority council) / Scottish Borders Council (unitary authority council) / 3x road crossings exist

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Examples where no roads exist and no buses exist:

• Adur District Council (second level district council) / Arun District Council (second level district council) / 0x road crossings exist

• Brighton & Hove City Council (unitary authority council) / Horsham District Council (second level district council) / 0x road crossings exist

• North Northamptonshire Council (unitary authority council) / Lincolnshire County Council (first level county council) / 0x road crossings exist

• North Northamptonshire Council (unitary authority council) / South Kesteven District Council (second level district council) / 0x road crossings exist

• Enfield Borough Council (unitary authority council) / Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council (second level district council) / 0x road crossings exist

• Argyll & Bute Council (unitary authority council) / Perth & Kinross Council (unitary authority council) / 0x road crossings

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Notable mention of a border that gets only one bus a week in each direction:

• Harrow Borough Council (unitary authority council) / Three Rivers District Council (second level district council) / 1x road crossings exist

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I would be very curious if anyone on here knows of any other examples of local authority areas that border each other but have no bus routes crossing them anywhere in the country.

 

[KHCT]

I believe there are no longer any bus services between the East Riding of Yorkshire (unitary council) and neighbouring Doncaster (metropolitan borough). In the past I think there were bus services from Goole to Thorne and Doncaster. There is however a half-hourly train service on this route.

 

[stadler]

Cumberland Council (unitary authority) and Scottish Borders Council (unitary authority) appears to be another one. It has three roads crossing the border but no bus routes. It is a very rural area.

 

[JKP]

Cumberland Council (unitary authority) and Scottish Borders Council (unitary authority) appears to be another one. It has three roads crossing the border but no bus routes. It is a very rural area.

Correct. There was at one time a variant of Telford’s 127A Newcastleton to Carlisle that served the small community of Kershopefoot in Cumbria principally for primary school pupils but the bridge across the river was narrowed and a weight restriction imposed so that the minibus could no longer go that way.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Cumberland Council (unitary authority) and Scottish Borders Council (unitary authority) appears to be another one. It has three roads crossing the border but no bus routes. It is a very rural area.

Yes - the buses that cross the border from Cumberland do so first into Dumfries & Galloway (the nearest thing to a direct route is the 127A to Newcastleton, which seems to occasionally cross the B6318 bridge near Harelaw, which is very slightly too far west). The relatively frequent cross border X95 crosses at Canonbie and serves Langholm in Dumfries & Galloway.

I've found a rare case of a metropolitan to metropolitan gap. Calderdale and Oldham have a very brief border near the M62 junction 22 (Rockingstone Moss) but no services currently go that way. This is the A672 road between Rishworth/Ripponden and Denshaw/Saddleworth. Of course while both Calderdale and Oldham are metropolitan boroughs which large urban centres (Halifax/Oldham) the area between them is very rural, with the border stretch being remote moors. But it's had services in the fairly recent past (as far as I can tell, bus number 572 was withdrawn in 2006) and it's not impossible to imagine it ever getting service again.

 

[Simon75]

Cheshire East (unity authority ) and Shropshire, Wrexham (unity authority)

 

[Deerfold]

I've found a rare case of a metropolitan to metropolitan gap. Calderdale and Oldham have a very brief border near the M62 junction 22 (Rockingstone Moss) but no services currently go that way. This is the A672 road between Rishworth/Ripponden and Denshaw/Saddleworth. Of course while both Calderdale and Oldham are metropolitan boroughs which large urban centres (Halifax/Oldham) the area between them is very rural, with the border stretch being remote moors. But it's had services in the fairly recent past (as far as I can tell, bus number 572 was withdrawn in 2006) and it's not impossible to imagine it ever getting service again.

The Oldham to Halifax bus was the 562 which went from being hourly (with an extra peak hour service in each direction) to just the subsidised evening and Sunday service which lasted a couple of weeks longer.

It was previously number 556 taking a different route between Ripponden and Halifax and, before that, the express X12. The 556 lasted as a daily service for a while after most trips were rerouted and renumbered (these were a service I used to commute for a summer as well as using less often afterwards).

The decision to withdraw it was taken whilst fares for older people were in flux. West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester accepted each other's passes for reduced fares, but en route to the national ENTCS scheme being introduced local free fares were introduced, but only in the local area, with the option of a cheap cross-border trip diappearing for the period that First used to decide to withdraw the service.

Rishworth has since gone from having 3 buses an hour to a 2-hourly service to Halifax and 1 a day to Huddersfield.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I believe there are no longer any bus services between the East Riding of Yorkshire (unitary council) and neighbouring Doncaster (metropolitan borough). In the past I think there were bus services from Goole to Thorne and Doncaster. There is however a half-hourly train service on this route.

Yes, you're right. The 88 used to run from Doncaster to Goole, but nowadays is a local Rawcliffe Bridge to Goole service which no longer crosses the South Yorkshire boundary.
Back in the 1990s there was a 183 Donny to Goole, and I believe some journeys on the 188 also ran through.
From the Doncaster end you can only get as far as Moorends now.

 

[stadler]

Enfield Borough Council and Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council appears to be another one with no bus routes crossing. There is only one road which is a minor country road and i am not sure if it ever had a bus service.

Enfield Borough Council and Epping Forest District Council is another which has no bus routes. However this one has no roads either so a bus is impossible to run. But there are three footpaths crossing the border.

I also though that Harrow Borough Council and Three Rivers District Council had nothing but it turns out that a once a week in each direction route R17 crosses that border. I wonder if that holds the record for the least served border in the country. I certainly can not think of any other borders with one bus a week in each direction.

 

[CMBS]

Argyll and Bute and Perth and Kinross is an example, however there is no direct road connection due to the marshy terrain between them and the only direct link is by rail.

While West Dunbartonshire has service 309 which crosses into Stirling Council, it was not until very recently that Drymen was connected with the rest of the Stirlingshire network through the C62.
Another example being here is at Tyndrum between the Argyll and Bute and Stirling Council borders, which until a few years ago only had services between the Highlands and Glasgow, and no link to the rest of Stirlingshire until the 913/978 was launched. Transport links have been improved since Ember established services along the A85/84 corridor.

 

[AWWisher]

The Oldham to Halifax bus was the 562 which went from being hourly (with an extra peak hour service in each direction) to just the subsidised evening and Sunday service which lasted a couple of weeks longer.

It was previously number 556 taking a different route between Ripponden and Halifax and, before that, the express X12. The 556 lasted as a daily service for a while after most trips were rerouted and renumbered (these were a service I used to commute for a summer as well as using less often afterwards).

The decision to withdraw it was taken whilst fares for older people were in flux. West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester accepted each other's passes for reduced fares, but en route to the national ENTCS scheme being introduced local free fares were introduced, but only in the local area, with the option of a cheap cross-border trip diappearing for the period that First used to decide to withdraw the service.

Rishworth has since gone from having 3 buses an hour to a 2-hourly service to Halifax and 1 a day to Huddersfield.

In the same area, Barnsley MBC to Derbyshire. Only one road crosses this border, the A628 Woodhead Pass. Used to be served by Yorkshire Traction 20 (Doncaster-Barnsley-Manchester) every 4hrs (2hrs on Sats) and various tries to Manchester Airport. Now long gone.
Now two routes go from Barnsley to Derbyshire but pass into Sheffield first, Stagecoach Yorkshire X17 (Barnsley-Sheffield-Chesterfield-Matlock(-Wirksworth, Sun)) & South Pennine 87 (Wed only, Holmfirth-Strines-Castleton) passes through no meaningful settlements in Barnsley MBC

 

[Whisky Papa]

The Oldham to Halifax bus was the 562 which went from being hourly (with an extra peak hour service in each direction) to just the subsidised evening and Sunday service which lasted a couple of weeks longer.

It was previously number 556 taking a different route between Ripponden and Halifax and, before that, the express X12. The 556 lasted as a daily service for a while after most trips were rerouted and renumbered (these were a service I used to commute for a summer as well as using less often afterwards).

The Halifax - Oldham route was extended to Manchester Piccadilly at one point - I was given route learning on it in the summer of 1989 having just passed my Class I at Halifax, but as a vacancy opened at Todmorden (phew!) I never drove it. I can't now recall if it was the 562 via Sowerby Bridge that was extended or if it was still the 556 via Barkisland at that time. Any thoughts?

The decision to withdraw it was taken whilst fares for older people were in flux. West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester accepted each other's passes for reduced fares, but en route to the national ENTCS scheme being introduced local free fares were introduced, but only in the local area, with the option of a cheap cross-border trip diappearing for the period that First used to decide to withdraw the service.

At the points pre-ENCTS when West Yorkshire offered free off-peak travel, Greater Manchester's flat concessionary fare was still honoured on cross-boundary routes; thus Todmorden - Rochdale or Halifax - Oldham was for a while 17p, the GM concessionary flat fare. I think this would still qualify as cheap?

What did cause confusion and some friction was West Yorkshire retaining half-fare for concessions from 1500-1800 on weekdays, and worse, that based on an adult fare that was also higher at that time of day. People found their journey home could be much more expensive if they strayed into this time, and for cross-boundary services it was taken as the time the service crossed the boundary into West Yorkshire, not the time of boarding.

Rishworth has since gone from having 3 buses an hour to a 2-hourly service to Halifax and 1 a day to Huddersfield.

That is really poor. I'm embarrassed by our local buses, in all honesty.

 

[telstarbox]

As a counterexample the 1066 from Hastings to Tunbridge Wells runs East Sussex - Kent - East Sussex - Kent again.

 

[Deerfold]

The Halifax - Oldham route was extended to Manchester Piccadilly at one point - I was given route learning on it in the summer of 1989 having just passed my Class I at Halifax, but as a vacancy opened at Todmorden (phew!) I never drove it. I can't now recall if it was the 562 via Sowerby Bridge that was extended or if it was still the 556 via Barkisland at that time. Any thoughts?

The 556 (for a while) and X12 both ran through to Manchester. Years later for a while alternate 561s finished at Rishworth or ran non-stop to the Trafford Centre.
The X12 stopped before I started journeying further afield so I only used it between Bradford and Ripponden (in 45 minutes!).

At the points pre-ENCTS when West Yorkshire offered free off-peak travel, Greater Manchester's flat concessionary fare was still honoured on cross-boundary routes; thus Todmorden - Rochdale or Halifax - Oldham was for a while 17p, the GM concessionary flat fare. I think this would still qualify as cheap?

I think you're thinking earlier than I am. The period I'm talking was after both WY and GM had a fixed fare for Senior Citizens. Central government then briefly mandated free travel, but only in your local area. First then decided traffic was too low and withdrew the route in 2006.

What did cause confusion and some friction was West Yorkshire retaining half-fare for concessions from 1500-1800 on weekdays, and worse, that based on an adult fare that was also higher at that time of day. People found their journey home could be much more expensive if they strayed into this time, and for cross-boundary services it was taken as the time the service crossed the boundary into West Yorkshire, not the time of boarding.

Rules on that (and for Day Rovers) changed regularly, which didn't help getting people to use them.

That is really poor. I'm embarrassed by our local buses, in all honesty.

The 586 to Commons was reduced from hourly to two-hourly (with a last bus from 2300 to 2120) due to driver shortages, but there seems to be no rush to make it more frequent again. Last time I tried to catch it (from the stop after the timing point in Rippponden) it ran several minutes early.

 

[gnolife]

Argyll and Bute and Perth and Kinross is an example, however there is no direct road connection due to the marshy terrain between them and the only direct link is by rail.

While West Dunbartonshire has service 309 which crosses into Stirling Council, it was not until very recently that Drymen was connected with the rest of the Stirlingshire network through the C62.
Another example being here is at Tyndrum between the Argyll and Bute and Stirling Council borders, which until a few years ago only had services between the Highlands and Glasgow, and no link to the rest of Stirlingshire until the 913/978 was launched. Transport links have been improved since Ember established services along the A85/84 corridor.

Used to be two buses a week on Saturdays only between Tyndrum and Stirling (number S60)

 

[CMBS]

Used to be two buses a week on Saturdays only between Tyndrum and Stirling (number S60)

Still runs, but it isn't a regular service

 

[stadler]

I have found one in NI and ROI with Fermanagh & Omagh District Council and Leitrim County Council which appear to have nothing crossing the border between them.

 

[JKP]

Still runs, but it isn't a regular service

Since when is a route operating on one day a week not a regular service? It regularly operates on that one day, a Saturday, every week. I think the word you were looking for was frequent.

 

[riceuten]

I can see lots of this getting much worse when Unitary Councils replace County Councils and will only finance routes wholly or predominately in their area, even when it makes no sense. We had this in Herts for a while, when the 44 bus to Luton Airport Parkway from Stevenage terminated at Peter's Green at the weekend, for no other reason than this was the Herts/Beds border.

Abroad, it gets even more surreal. I know people who live on the 29 bus route in Brussels which heads from the centre to a terminus called "Hof Ten Berg", which, as the name suggests, is directly on the border of Brussels/Flanders - the Dutch speaking part of Belgium. A more sensible arrangement would be for the bus to terminate in nearby Kraainem or Sint-Stevens-Woluwe, but instead terminates in the back streets of nowhere, but there is no way that Flemish authorities want Brussels buses clogging up their roads.

​

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There used to be several different routes between Barnsley (Barnsley MBC) and Huddersfield (Kirklees MC) but now the only cross-boundary services are the Holmfirth to Castleton route mentioned in post #11, and South Pennine Community Transport route 90/91 from Barnsley to Holmfirth via Denby Dale which operates a handful of daytime trips.

 

[AWWisher]

There used to be several different routes between Barnsley (Barnsley MBC) and Huddersfield (Kirklees MC) but now the only cross-boundary services are the Holmfirth to Castleton route mentioned in post #11, and South Pennine Community Transport route 90/91 from Barnsley to Holmfirth via Denby Dale which operates a handful of daytime trips.

Too true. There used to be an array of routes between Barnsley MBC (South Yorkshire) & Kirklees MDC (West Yorkshire) and between Barnsley and Wakefield MDC (West Yorkshire) operated jointly by the two PTE's. Many long gone and others reduced in frequency.

There is still the aforementioned South Pennine 87, 90 & 91 plus South Pennine 25A, 29, 77 & 99 and Globe 94 (Barnsley-Kirklees) and Globe 39, 96, 97 & 198 and Stagecoach 28. 38 & 59 (Barnsley-Wakefield).
Team Pennine D3 is unusual in that it runs along the border between Ingbirchworth and Upper Denby but does not actually enter South Yorkshire (perhaps two wheels do)

However, the OP was 'borders without a service'. I've just listed 15 services that do, so it's all irrelevant, (but interesting)

 

[43010]

There are no services between Somerset (unitary) and North Devon (non-metropolitan district), except during the summer when (for the last few years) there has been a service between Lynmouth and Minehead - this year, the service will be numbered 300 and operated by Stagecoach South West.

 

[route101]

South Lanarkshire and Ayshire. No buses after the X16 was withdrawn.

 

[kijeta]

We had this in Herts for a while, when the 44 bus to Luton Airport Parkway from Stevenage terminated at Peter's Green at the weekend, for no other reason than this was the Herts/Beds border.

In a way, doesn't TfL's 375 do that? It terminates at Passingford Bridge, which is just before leaving Greater London. I remember wanting to get somewhere from Abridge, and decided that walking to Passingford Bridge was just slightly too far.

 

[Jellyfish261]

Powys County Council (CC) potentially with five, mostly down to geography rather than any obvious service/demand gaps

Caerphilly County Borough Council (CBC)
Blaenau Gwent CBC
Rhondda Cynon Taf CBC
Denbighshire CC
Wrexham CBC

 

[geoffk]

The Halifax - Oldham route was extended to Manchester Piccadilly at one point - I was given route learning on it in the summer of 1989 having just passed my Class I at Halifax, but as a vacancy opened at Todmorden (phew!) I never drove it. I can't now recall if it was the 562 via Sowerby Bridge that was extended or if it was still the 556 via Barkisland at that time. Any thoughts?

At the points pre-ENCTS when West Yorkshire offered free off-peak travel, Greater Manchester's flat concessionary fare was still honoured on cross-boundary routes; thus Todmorden - Rochdale or Halifax - Oldham was for a while 17p, the GM concessionary flat fare. I think this would still qualify as cheap?

What did cause confusion and some friction was West Yorkshire retaining half-fare for concessions from 1500-1800 on weekdays, and worse, that based on an adult fare that was also higher at that time of day. People found their journey home could be much more expensive if they strayed into this time, and for cross-boundary services it was taken as the time the service crossed the boundary into West Yorkshire, not the time of boarding.

That is really poor. I'm embarrassed by our local buses, in all honesty.

Let's hope Rochdale - Todmorden (once my local route) doesn't go the same way, given WYCA's approach to cross-boundary services.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I've found a rare case of a metropolitan to metropolitan gap. Calderdale and Oldham have a very brief border near the M62 junction 22 (Rockingstone Moss) but no services currently go that way. This is the A672 road between Rishworth/Ripponden and Denshaw/Saddleworth. Of course while both Calderdale and Oldham are metropolitan boroughs which large urban centres (Halifax/Oldham) the area between them is very rural, with the border stretch being remote moors. But it's had services in the fairly recent past (as far as I can tell, bus number 572 was withdrawn in 2006) and it's not impossible to imagine it ever getting service again.

The 572 was Halifax to Southwram (pronounced as South-ow-ram) shorts.

I wonder if the old M60 (Halifax to Trafford Centre) service would count?

You could include Kirklees > High Peak - use to have a year round Sunday service (the 61A Huddersfield / Holmfirth to Buxton before getting the chop in 2009). Then in the recent years the 951 Huddersfield to Glossop, 351 Holmfirth to Glossop and 87 Holmfirth to Castleton.

Leeds & Wakefield > East Riding of Yorkshire & Hull - the X62 use to link Glasshoughton with Goole, axed in 2020 and replaced with Megabus which has also gone.

Wakefield > Doncaster - the 496 use to run to Doncaster Frenchgate since cut back to South Elmsall, a replacement 3xx ran by Doncaster CT ran for a bit between Doncaster and South Elmsall before being scrapped. The most recent was the 52/52A? that ran two journeys between Doncaster and South Elmsall via Hampole / Skelbrooke.


With bus franchising on the cards I can imagine seeing more cross boundary services falling by the wayside.

The 586 to Commons was reduced from hourly to two-hourly (with a last bus from 2300 to 2120) due to driver shortages, but there seems to be no rush to make it more frequent again. Last time I tried to catch it (from the stop after the timing point in Rippponden) it ran several minutes early.

Slighly off topic but I'd contact the councillors for the Ryburn Valley to see if anything could be done to improve the services, I've noticed a lot is being done by Calderdale Council recently.

 

[BeeBus]

The Denshaw to Rishworth stretch is a bit more complicated than you might expect in terms of the border, because pre-1974 you would leave Denshaw (then under Saddleworth UDC in the West Riding of Yorkshire) and get up to the Ram's Head with its excellent gravity-served beer (then, anyway), except that was in Lancashire! A bit of the Milnrow UDC border crossed the A672 just below the pub and when it crossed back again it was Ripponden UDC up on Windy Hill, the pub being the only building on that stretch of road. This changed in 1974 so the areas were, heading east, Oldham, Rochdale and then Calderdale. This situation remained until the passage of The Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire (County and District Boundaries) Order 1992 which formally took effect on 1st April 1993. The border moved so it ran alongside the road such that the road itself was now in Oldham (as was the pub) and I suspect the principal objective was to transfer responsibility for maintenance of that isolated section of road to Oldham from Rochdale, which would certainly make sense in terms of clearing snow - and emptying the pub's bins.

Hence by 1993 the service did run across the Calderdale/Oldham border, although some journeys had done so previously as some Summer Sundays buses were diverted via Barkisland and Dean Head to take the A640 into Denshaw (a road which had only otherwise seen a bus service briefly in the 1920s, with good reason). This means that neither incarnation of the X12, the Yorkshire Woollen 223/224, the short-lived 562 pre-deregulation or the 556 crossed a Calderdale/Oldham boundary but the 562 did. To answer the question from Whisky Papa, the 562 had started by 1991 so it is likely your exerience was on the original Barkisland route as it only changed from being a Crosville (yes, really!) service back to Yorkshire Rider on 26th February 1989.

 

[Whisky Papa]

To answer the question from Whisky Papa, the 562 had started by 1991 so it is likely your exerience was on the original Barkisland route as it only changed from being a Crosville (yes, really!) service back to Yorkshire Rider on 26th February 1989.

Thanks, the Barkisland option was my gut feeling.

Mention of Crosville* on this route reminds me of a story told at the time by a fellow real-ale enthusiast. He had ventured over to Oldham to tick off a few pubs, and intended to catch the last 556 back to Halifax, which left Oldham some time after 2230 and arrived in Halifax well after midnight - and then of course had to return empty to Crosville's depot in Rochdale, on the former Yelloway site in the town centre.

However, when the bus appeared it was showing Denshaw rather than Halifax, and the driver was somewhat unhappy about going any further, claiming he would be unable to get home himself. Naturally my friend had a paper timetable to prove his point, and a compromise was reached: it ran as far as Rishworth, where he just managed to connect with the last bus back into Halifax via Sowerby Bridge. This was actually a slight bonus, as he lived at King Cross and this would get him closer to home.

* - as a former member of the Crosville Enthusiasts Club in my teens, I found this period of their existence extremely sad.