ECML major disruption | 91107 fails at Knebworth (25/04)

[Surreytraveller]

Getting off topic I know, but as regards station staff and disruption, personally I think there is merit in bringing all station staff on manned stations, plus those stations, back under direct control of GBR.

That would get rid of the attitude of your not our customer, that I and others have experienced at the likes of Carlisle/ Preston/York and Newcastle, where many staff only seem to want to look after the services and users of the trains run by their employing TOC.

Would it get rid of that attitude though? Depends how it's all split up and organised. You still might have services separated between intercity and suburban, with staff employed by one or the other, at certain locations

 

[YorksLad12]

As someone caught up in this, after the misery of watching his side lose to arsenal and trying to get back to Newcastle… My main view is how atrocious lner platform and social media team were. Kings Cross staff were utterly clueless and then somewhat absent , we were informing them through RTT. LNER social media (who perhaps were having a long day) possibly needs another job if they can’t handle the level of queries, they were so passive aggressive and on arrival at Newcastle the staff at were their usual well documented arrogant self. I cannot think of another station on the network where the staff are so bad.

The train crew were outstanding it has to be said, good humoured, gauged the exact relationship and tone and an email has gone to David Horne to express their usual brilliance. LNER train crew are hugely hugely let down by their platform staff at Newcastle and social media (KX were very friendly just clueless)

Funnily enough a British airways holiday booking was just £10 more than I ended up spending and at least they’d have looked after me and given me compensation and covered my food and drink.

I use the line at least once a week and I’m getting seriously fed up with the east coast and the option to HEX it to Paddington is much more palatable than yet another delay or disruption. I’m considering buying myself a bench at York, the amount of times I’ve been kicked off there at lste!

Interesting. When there was major disruption in Feb 2025 (took me four hours to get a train home - last one out of Dodge), it was the woman behind the information desk who seemed to have a clue, whereas the NR station announcer just said "don't travel". Her two counterparts from other operators left after a couple of hours. It was a Saturday evening, and I wasn't getting much phone signal inside Kings Cross, so I can't say what the social team were up to (plus I don't use X now). But she was the level to aspire to, and it shouldn't be variable.

 

[AY1975]

I presume the date in the heading should read 25/04 rather than 25/05?

 

[357]

It's always been the LNER team leader responsible for notifying the station control team that the service is ready for boarding as far as I'm aware.
Normally once they load the reservations into system and ensure majority of catering carts are loaded.

Only for LNER services

 

[Sakuradori]

The other issue is that KGX won't advertise a platform until they get a phone call from the Train Manager to say it's ready for boarding... On a train arriving into London the TM has other things to be doing

It's always been the LNER team leader responsible for notifying the station control team that the service is ready for boarding as far as I'm aware.
Normally once they load the reservations into system and ensure majority of catering carts are loaded.

Train dispatcher does that. Only real checkboxes are safety inspection completed, reservations loaded, train clean (and they are told to rush to minimise delays).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2026 ==

I presume the date in the heading should read 25/04 rather than 25/05?

We're just pre-empting the next one

 

[357]

Train dispatcher does that. Only real checkboxes are safety inspection completed, reservations loaded, train clean (and they are told to rush to minimise delays) and TM present

Not all services at Kings Cross have a train dispatcher.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Getting off topic I know, but as regards station staff and disruption, personally I think there is merit in bringing all station staff on manned stations, plus those stations, back under direct control of GBR.

That would get rid of the attitude of your not our customer, that I and others have experienced at the likes of Carlisle/ Preston/York and Newcastle, where many staff only seem to want to look after the services and users of the trains run by their employing TOC.

Oh that’s not the problem here. The problem is that they are customers period. Even when they are LNER customers. There is no ‘not my customer, not my problem’. It’s a case of ‘I’m over entitled, I hate you and I’m going to be as unpleasant and dismissive as possible. If I make you cry then that’s a bonus. Don’t like it, what you going to do?’.

I wasn’t even born when BR was here. What was station staff attitude like?

 

[Sakuradori]

Not all services at Kings Cross have a train dispatcher.

HullTrains, Lumo and Grand Central self dispatch, correct. They do have a dedicated representative on the station that I was under the impression liaises with control, but I could be wrong.

 

[bramling]

Oh that’s not the problem here. The problem is that they are customers period. Even when they are LNER customers. There is no ‘not my customer, not my problem’. It’s a case of ‘I’m over entitled, I hate you and I’m going to be as unpleasant and dismissive as possible. If I make you cry then that’s a bonus. Don’t like it, what you going to do?’.

I wasn’t even born when BR was here. What was station staff attitude like?

What was different in BR days was staff tended to have more idea of what was actually going on. There was less of the “roll down the shutters and hide” as staff weren’t out of their depth in terms of handling disruption. That was my experience anyway, others may have experienced different. Despite comms and systems being a lot less sophisticated in those days, there was a sense that everyone at least knew what was going on. For balance, there weren’t as many trains out on the railway though.

Even your most stereotypical surly BR station staff would be able to tell you what was happening, as opposed to nowadays where some staff seem to feel that during disruption it is reasonable just to boot everyone away.

 

[Surreytraveller]

What was different in BR days was staff tended to have more idea of what was actually going on. There was less of the “roll down the shutters and hide” as staff weren’t out of their depth in terms of handling disruption. That was my experience anyway, others may have experienced different. Despite comms and systems being a lot less sophisticated in those days, there was a sense that everyone at least knew what was going on. For balance, there weren’t as many trains out on the railway though.

Even your most stereotypical surly BR station staff would be able to tell you what was happening, as opposed to nowadays where some staff seem to feel that during disruption it is reasonable just to boot everyone away.

I think these days, a lot of staff expect to be fed information, rather than having situational awareness and an operational knowledge. But also, training in these areas is virtually non-existent nowadays too, and staff turnover means no one has the experience to know what is what, or to pass knowledge onto new staff

 

[35B]

I wasn’t even born when BR was here. What was station staff attitude like?

Variable - just like it is today. The good ones were on the ball, understood the railway and were keen to help. The poor ones were bone idle, did as little as possible and could be actively unhelpful. The majority were somewhere in the middle.

My experience (and others' will differ) is that the average standard has risen a tad, because of better information systems and more willingness to confront the really bad ones. But it's still pretty variable and inconsistent, with the added complexity on multi-operator stations of staff sometimes being focused on "their" customers, rather than seeing themselves as being there for everyone using the station.

 

[vintagepilot]

I was on the 1A18 - timeline went along the lines of breakdown at about 13:38 - driver doing fault analysis and resetting circuit breakers at both ends. First plan announced was thunderbird loco from York, then when that was about half way that changed to rescue train from KGX with a train-to-train transfer BUT we would have to leave bigger bags behind and it was only going to take us to Stevenage. Much relief when they changed that to being able to take bags - and it would take us to KGX.

By this time it was getting uncomfortably hot - not so bad in first with curtains (and I was on the shady side) but down the back it was getting unbearable. So much so that pax opened several doors - despite that, several people collapsed and they were calling for anyone with professional medical quals to coach D. The threat of pax on the line closed all the lines for a while - which even stopped our own rescue train from making the last few yards to meet us. Eventually they got it alongside from where it took 75 mins to transfer everyone across. The they couldn't release the brakes. The thunderbird was all set to tow us but eventually we got going and then limped in to Stevenage at about 16:10 ish(?)

By this time they said anyone who had missed whatever they had in London could just go home on any train while others of us scrambled on to a waiting train to KGX. That train was then delayed by a further 30 mins by which time I had missed any chance of getting to the airport. The train manager told me to get any train back northbound which turned out to be a much delayed Newcastle train which had been declassified to fill it up.

Some of the original staff where going home on the same train and were very critical of how the operation was handled by the control centre - including exactly which doors to line up with, rather than letting the drivers and guards deal with it on the ground. 'Apparently', because they used a regular passenger door on the rescue train, the only way they could open it was to use the emergency door release - which then caused the brake issues. Had they used a 'crew' door maybe that wouldn't have happened - don't know how accurate any of that is. But the big take away is that they need some way of ventilating a train with no air con - without causing a loose passenger line blocking situation. So some sort of partially open door or other way of ventilation - any longer on the original train and I think there would have been some serious casualties.

 

[800001]

I was on the 1A18 - timeline went along the lines of breakdown at about 13:38 - driver doing fault analysis and resetting circuit breakers at both ends. First plan announced was thunderbird loco from York, then when that was about half way that changed to rescue train from KGX with a train-to-train transfer BUT we would have to leave bigger bags behind and it was only going to take us to Stevenage. Much relief when they changed that to being able to take bags - and it would take us to KGX.

By this time it was getting uncomfortably hot - not so bad in first with curtains (and I was on the shady side) but down the back it was getting unbearable. So much so that pax opened several doors - despite that, several people collapsed and they were calling for anyone with professional medical quals to coach D. The threat of pax on the line closed all the lines for a while - which even stopped our own rescue train from making the last few yards to meet us. Eventually they got it alongside from where it took 75 mins to transfer everyone across. The they couldn't release the brakes. The thunderbird was all set to tow us but eventually we got going and then limped in to Stevenage at about 16:10 ish(?)

By this time they said anyone who had missed whatever they had in London could just go home on any train while others of us scrambled on to a waiting train to KGX. That train was then delayed by a further 30 mins by which time I had missed any chance of getting to the airport. The train manager told me to get any train back northbound which turned out to be a much delayed Newcastle train which had been declassified to fill it up.

Some of the original staff where going home on the same train and were very critical of how the operation was handled by the control centre - including exactly which doors to line up with, rather than letting the drivers and guards deal with it on the ground. 'Apparently', because they used a regular passenger door on the rescue train, the only way they could open it was to use the emergency door release - which then caused the brake issues. Had they used a 'crew' door maybe that wouldn't have happened - don't know how accurate any of that is. But the big take away is that they need some way of ventilating a train with no air con - without causing a loose passenger line blocking situation. So some sort of partially open door or other way of ventilation - any longer on the original train and I think there would have been some serious casualties.

Regards the evacuation and which doors to use, the driver and guards from each train will/should have been involved in a quick conference call with control at York and an online manager all to get a clear understanding of what to do, where to stop, what doors to use etc!

 

[thedbdiboy]

What was different in BR days was staff tended to have more idea of what was actually going on. There was less of the “roll down the shutters and hide” as staff weren’t out of their depth in terms of handling disruption. That was my experience anyway, others may have experienced different. Despite comms and systems being a lot less sophisticated in those days, there was a sense that everyone at least knew what was going on. For balance, there weren’t as many trains out on the railway though.

Even your most stereotypical surly BR station staff would be able to tell you what was happening, as opposed to nowadays where some staff seem to feel that during disruption it is reasonable just to boot everyone away.

My own experiences of BR days is that, operationally things were recovered more quickly. Failed trains could be recovered by a nearby loco, the massive coupling incompatibility and computer systems on rolling stock that control everything didn't exist whilst with 'person hit by a train' type incidents there was much more of a 'clear things up and open the line' approach - times have changed, and I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs of it. However, 'customer' information was pretty awful. It was very ops-led railway and telling anyone not directly involved in resolving the issue was way down the pecking order.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don't the 225s still have the door barriers that were rolled out years ago to allow the doors to be opened but in a safe way ?

 

[800001]

Don't the 225s still have the door barriers that were rolled out years ago to allow the doors to be opened but in a safe way ?

As far as I know yes. To be used exactly for situations like this.

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I know yes. To be used exactly for situations like this.

Though I think there's a question mark as to whether they were available on this set or had gone walkies sometime in the past and their absence hadn't been missed...

 

[800001]

Though I think there's a question mark as to whether they were available on this set or had gone walkies sometime in the past and their absence hadn't been missed...

To me it should be part of the check for safety equipment before a train leaves depot.
The same as some guards won't move a train if they do not have full stock of emergency water.

 

[ainsworth74]

To me it should be part of the check for safety equipment before a train leaves depot.
The same as some guards won't move a train if they do not have full stock of emergency water.

I'm sure, if my impression is correct, that LNER will be looking into things like that as part of their post incident review! Not the least to work out when they went missing and where they ended up going to!

 

[800001]

I'm sure, if my impression is correct, that LNER will be looking into things like that as part of their post incident review! Not the least to work out when they went missing and where they ended up going to!

I wonder if they've checked ebay

 

[RiverDon]

The emergency ventilation door barriers on Scotrail HSTs live in the guards office and it's part of the full train prep to check they're present along with all the other safety equipment. Surprising if LNER procedures aren't similar!

 

[waterboo]

The thing is, when you looked on the likes of linkedin ect.. there's periodically boastful posts abouts the latest management away day in a simulated evacuation exercise, and numerous 'taskforces' set up to manage and learn lessons from previous failed train / evacuation scenarios.

But you can't deny nowadays the whole system is so bloated, in regards to making decisions. Signaller, TOC control, NR Train Running Controller, Incident Controller, MOM, RIO, TOLO?

Take your pick, but either way it's adding layers in a time critical scenario

 

[bramling]

The thing is, when you looked on the likes of linkedin ect.. there's periodically boastful posts abouts the latest management away day in a simulated evacuation exercise, and numerous 'taskforces' set up to manage and learn lessons from previous failed train / evacuation scenarios. But you can't deny nowadays the whole system is so bloated, in regards to making decisions. Signaller, TOC control, NR Train Running Controller, Incident Controller, MOM, RIO, TOLO? Take your pick, but either way it's adding layers in a time critical scenario

I’ve felt this for a long while. There’s a lot of people who have input into things, and not everyone in the process has the most appropriate expertise.

It really helps in these sorts of situations for those remote from the location to at least be able to visualise the scene - what the local layout actually looks like on the ground, what buttons the train crew will be pressing, what other things the train crew will be needing to deal with at the same time, etc etc. To be fair, the reverse also applies as staff on the ground often don’t appreciate control need to consider the full picture not just their part of it. So this brings us back to better training and more experience.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Is it really LNER procedure that the train-to-train evacuation has to be agreed in a conference call between the 2 conductors and control?

That sounds unnecessarily complicated, wrt Control workload and poor signals on mobile phones.

Can't the staff on the ground be trusted to agree a plan for themselves? It's the people on the ground that actually do things, not HQ.... By all means, keep the ability to 'phone a friend' if the train crews think that would be helpful, but it can't be a mandatory element surely?

One more thing to be part of the already extensive post incident review?!!!

 

[cornishjohn]

Is it really LNER procedure

No idea

that the train-to-train evacuation has to be agreed in a conference call between the 2 conductors and control?

But it make sense to me that the 2 on the ground need to agree that it is possible, and that Control need to agree that it should be done (in the hope that Control have a "bigger picture" of what is going on of course)

 

[800001]

No idea


But it make sense to me that the 2 on the ground need to agree that it is possible, and that Control need to agree that it should be done (in the hope that Control have a "bigger picture" of what is going on of course)

It also takes literally 5 minutes to discuss and get the clear understanding so that everything is done safely.