Bad traffic enforcement

[Bikeman78]

Yes, starting with in-car audible warnings when following too close. Similar in-car warnings which increase in volume the more that speed limits are exceeded. Cameras at more junctions which issue fines for crossing on red lights, or for not indicating when making a clear right turn at roundabouts.

And importantly, ring fencing of the fines system so that the fines pay for the enforcement, rather than disappearing into the Government's coffers!

The technology needs to improve. My car displays the speed limit on the dashboard but frequently gets it wrong. I don't want an alarm blaring at me because I'm driving at 60 mph but the car thinks it is still a 30 mph limit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2026 ==

If you've got a clear view then there's no reason not to drive at the speed limit. If your vision is obstructed by parked cars then you should be slowing down to a crawl.

Realistically, that's never going to happen. If nothing else, it would render many bus routes in Cardiff useless. I nearly took out a van driver on my bike recently. He was heading from the pavement to the driver's side door and emerged from in front of his vehicle without looking or listening. Given his lack of attention, I am grateful that he was outside his van rather than in it.

 

[Hadders]

60 for duals is also a good plan, I would include in this hard-shoulderless motorways. 70 only with a hard shoulder (A-roads with this could be signed up).

I’d say 70mph for dual carriageways and 80mph for motorways. It won’t happen, but the current maximum limited were set more than 50 years ago and braking technology and crash worthiness has moved on considerably since then.

As for smart motorways, what’s really needed is a proper education campaign and enforcement of closed lanes. We don’t complain about newly constructed dual carriageways not having a full hard shoulder so I don’t fully understand why smart motorways get the press they do. I do believe it would’ve been better if what are now smart motorways has been properly widened with a hard shoulder but I don’t believe the answer to smart motorways is to take the inside lane out and convert it to a hard shoulder either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say 70mph for dual carriageways and 80mph for motorways. It won’t happen, but the current maximum limited were set more than 50 years ago and braking technology and crash worthiness has moved on considerably since then.

They have, but I'd rather we took increased safety as a dividend for that rather than increased speed. It's also hard to justify higher limits on environmental grounds, at least until EVs are universal when a rethink might be viable.

As for smart motorways, what’s really needed is a proper education campaign and enforcement of closed lanes. We don’t complain about newly constructed dual carriageways not having a full hard shoulder so I don’t fully understand why smart motorways get the press they do. I do believe it would’ve been better if what are now smart motorways has been properly widened with a hard shoulder but I don’t believe the answer to smart motorways is to take the inside lane out and convert it to a hard shoulder either.

There is I believe enforcement of red Xs now via the gantry cameras. However I'm not sure how good a thing that is when it forces a law-abiding motorist to end up doing 40 in lane 3 in some cases when less law-abiding ones are tearing past at 60. There are too many "false alarm" limits and red Xs on the gantries, it really needs better management. At least I've not seen 20 shoved up in a while (has to be done manually) -that was scary - I wonder if it was a deliberate policy decision to stop using values lower than 40 or if there have just been control room staffing cuts so only automatic limits are used now? I think I saw 10 once but only once, I doubt that is meant to be used...

As for the hard shoulder, I'd go with the limit being 60 if there isn't one, or perhaps we could have scope to red-X the left lane when not busy and sign up to 70.

Duals are more dangerous than motorways and do justify a lower limit to try to bring that safety into line.

 

[The exile]

I’d say 70mph for dual carriageways and 80mph for motorways. It won’t happen, but the current maximum limited were set more than 50 years ago and braking technology and crash worthiness has moved on considerably since then.

As for smart motorways, what’s really needed is a proper education campaign and enforcement of closed lanes. We don’t complain about newly constructed dual carriageways not having a full hard shoulder so I don’t fully understand why smart motorways get the press they do.

Most dual carriageways I know have a verge of some description - though I admit that in some cases the risk of plunging down an embankment is quite high. Also, in the case of smart motorways a major safety feature (the hard shoulder) has been deliberately moved rather than never put there.

 

[Krokodil]

A simulator cannot simulate the most important variable (and influencing factor) - which is the human element.

You can't establish whether someone has the right temperment for driving, no. What you can do is work through scenarios of "who should give way to whom at this junction", "which of these cars is giving enough room to the cyclist" and a retake of the hazard perception test.

It only does if you don't understand what NSL means

Guess how I wrote off my first car. I learned a valuable lesson that day.

I almost feel that the old rules when the sign meant "end of restrictions" were better because I wouldn't have had a number in my head that I thought would be safe. A bit like how removing signage has reduced incidents in some locations - it encourages people to think for themselves.

I’d say 70mph for dual carriageways and 80mph for motorways. It won’t happen, but the current maximum limited were set more than 50 years ago and braking technology and crash worthiness has moved on considerably since then.

Especially as the current motorway 70 limit is widely flouted. It might be better to change it to 80 and step up enforcement so that people are actually doing 80 rather than 90.

Still, if the oil crisis keeps up then it might be necessary to reduce it to 60 on fuel economy grounds.

 

[Bikeman78]

These types of accidents have become anecdotally more common precisely because too few people expect the car in front to stop when making a turn or exiting a roundabout to lawfully give way to pedestrians.

I don't understand why. Where I live, many residential streets are effectively single file, or have vehicles parked stupidly close to the junction. It's quite normal to have to slow down or stop whilst turning left, even when there are no pedestrians anywhere nearby, to avoid oncoming vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Especially as the current motorway 70 limit is widely flouted.

It's very much not any more. I set my limiter on the motorway to 73, which is actual 70 by GPS. I am mostly the fastest car these days.

It's probably true on the M40 which has somehow escaped cameras so far, but elsewhere most in my experience are doing what would be an indicated 70.

 

[Hadders]

There is I believe enforcement of red Xs now via the gantry cameras. However I'm not sure how good a thing that is when it forces a law-abiding motorist to end up doing 40 in lane 3 in some cases when less law-abiding ones are tearing past at 60.

That's why I believe there should be better education and enforcement when the red x is flouted.

At least I've not seen 20 shoved up in a while (has to be done manually) -that was scary

I got caught in a long 20mph stretch on the M1 past St ALbans a couple of years ago. No problem if it's a genuine issue but I've no idea what the problem was, although I'd say that while it was rather tedious compliance was pretty good and it was prefereable to being at a complete standstill.

Duals are more dangerous than motorways and do justify a lower limit to try to bring that safety into line.

All duals? What about the new A14. That doesn't need to be 60mph. Targeted 60mph limits can be imposed in known hot spots rather than a blanket 60mph on all dual carriageways where frankly it might not be appropriate.

Most dual carriageways I know have a verge of some description - though I admit that in some cases the risk of plunging down an embankment is quite high

Sounds similar to a smart motorway.

Especially as the current motorway 70 limit is widely flouted. It might be better to change it to 80 and step up enforcement so that people are actually doing 80 rather than 90.

The limit on smart motorways is generally complied with, in my experience but on a non-smart motorway like the M40 it often isn't.

 

[BayPaul]

It only does if you don't understand what NSL means. It doesn't mean you should do 60mph on a rural single track road.

Traffic managment schemes including limit reductions are expensive and so are targetted at where they bring most benefit.

Though personally I would be more than happy to see limits generally reduced to the van limits (50-60-70) for all vehicles, and a new 40mph limit to be introduced as a default on any road with no marked centreline, which would solve the problem you mention in so much as there is one.

You clearly don't live in a rural area. Reducing the speed limits in this way would make little difference to the average resident of Milton Keynes, but it would make areas like Devon and Cornwall significantly more remote. 70mph is entirely reasonable on a typical rural trunk road, and many large single carriageways work fine at 60.

Some roads without white lines are still OK at 50, some need you to drop to 10mph. Putting in place a blanket 40mph would not help. Speed limits are not useful on single track roads, the current NSL but drive to the conditions is the right approach but needs a bit more education. It also isn't really practical to install cameras anyway, so changing limits probably wouldn't change speeds.

Since 2/3 of incidents occur on urban roads, which is also where most vulnerable road users are, I'd suggest the Welsh approach is far more likely to reduce deaths on the roads if you want to see speed limits reduced for safety.

 

[JohnofWessex]

Whatever else you think of it the Wales 20mph is pretty easy to deal with, everywhere that used to be 30 is 20 no random bits of 20 here and there

 

[renegademaster]

I don't see why a less busy dual carriageway like the A21 needs a slower speed limit than a hectic 4 lane section of the M25.

If anything most rural dual carriageways are safer because you only have to worry about traffic coming at you from one side not both

 

[bramling]

I’d say 70mph for dual carriageways and 80mph for motorways. It won’t happen, but the current maximum limited were set more than 50 years ago and braking technology and crash worthiness has moved on considerably since then.

As for smart motorways, what’s really needed is a proper education campaign and enforcement of closed lanes. We don’t complain about newly constructed dual carriageways not having a full hard shoulder so I don’t fully understand why smart motorways get the press they do. I do believe it would’ve been better if what are now smart motorways has been properly widened with a hard shoulder but I don’t believe the answer to smart motorways is to take the inside lane out and convert it to a hard shoulder either.

I’d prefer to see a lot of the smart motorways properly widened, in other words keep the number of lanes currently available but with a full hard shoulder added.

Much as the A1M between Welwyn and Stevenage is a pain, I’m glad this has so far managed to evade conversion to a smart motorway. From a disruption point of view I reckon it would end up as disrupted as it is now.

The sections of the M25 that don’t have a hard shoulder flow a little better when everything works, but as soon as one small thing happens the disruption is massive.

I’d *really* like to see some proper enforcement of lane-hogging. It’s absolutely endemic now. Bad enough the ones who sit in the middle lane, but more recently there seems to have been a massive increase in those who sit in the right-hand lane for no reason oblivious to anything behind them. Any time I drive back from London on the A1M I can guarantee there will be at least one of those, normally several, especially between London and Hatfield. I don’t understand why it happens.

 

[Hadders]

Much as the A1M between Welwyn and Stevenage is a pain, I’m glad this has so far managed to evade conversion to a smart motorway. From a disruption point of view I reckon it would end up as disrupted as it is now.

The two lane section of the A1(M) between Welwyn and Stevenage is a real pain. For anyone unfamiliar with this stretch of road there is a 3 lane motorway between junctions 1 and 6, two lanes between junctions 6 and 8 and then three lanes north of junction 8. It's effectively the motorway version of the Welwyn Viaduct!

Ideally it would be widened to a 3-lane motorway with hard shoulders in each direction but this is highly unlikely to happen any time due to lack of funding. So, if there was sufficient funding to convert the hard shoulder to create a permanent running would this be better than doing nothing and solidering on with an unfit for purpose, highly congested two lane motorway but with a hard shoulder.

On balance, I'd probably prefer a smart motorway solution. In the real world we'll have to soldier on with the current set up as no more new smart motorways will be built.

 

[Bikeman78]

Absolutely correct, the difference between doing a journey at 70 mph or 80 mph is negligible compared with the fuel wasted sitting around going nowhere or slowing down unnecessarily.

I think mid 50s is the most efficient speed for a car with an engine? But stopping and starting absolutely kills efficiency. Last week I did a three hour journey mostly on motorways. According to the vehicle computer, average mpg was bang on 60. I pottered around doing local journeys for two days during which time it dropped to 56.5 mpg. On the journey back, I drove at a steady 70 and the mpg slowly climbed back up to 59.5.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d *really* like to see some proper enforcement of lane-hogging. It’s absolutely endemic now. Bad enough the ones who sit in the middle lane, but more recently there seems to have been a massive increase in those who sit in the right-hand lane for no reason oblivious to anything behind them. Any time I drive back from London on the A1M I can guarantee there will be at least one of those, normally several, especially between London and Hatfield. I don’t understand why it happens.

Agreed, although it is noticeably worse south of the Midlands and particualrly bad on the M1 / M40 / A1M in the home counties. I‘ve said on these pages before, I once counted 200 lane hoggers that I undertook on a trioback from the north west, and stopped at 200 as I couldn’t be bothered counting any more.

The two lane section of the A1(M) between Welwyn and Stevenage is a real pain. For anyone unfamiliar with this stretch of road there is a 3 lane motorway between junctions 1 and 6, two lanes between junctions 6 and 8 and then three lanes north of junction 8. It's effectively the motorway version of the Welwyn Viaduct!

Ideally it would be widened to a 3-lane motorway with hard shoulders in each direction but this is highly unlikely to happen any time due to lack of funding. So, if there was sufficient funding to convert the hard shoulder to create a permanent running would this be better than doing nothing and solidering on with an unfit for purpose, highly congested two lane motorway but with a hard shoulder.

On balance, I'd probably prefer a smart motorway solution. In the real world we'll have to soldier on with the current set up as no more new smart motorways will be built.

It was programmed for conversion to 3 lane ALR Smart Motorway, but paused pending the Smart Motorway safety review. It is noticeably absent from the Roads Investment Strategy (RIS3) for 2026-2031.

 

[bramling]

Agreed, although it is noticeably worse south of the Midlands and particualrly bad on the M1 / M40 / A1M in the home counties. I‘ve said on these pages before, I once counted 200 lane hoggers that I undertook on a trioback from the north west, and stopped at 200 as I couldn’t be bothered counting any more.

Of those I’d say the M1 is worst, but it’s very noticeable on the A1M because of the two-lane sections. It’s so irritating! I haven’t worked out if it’s ignorance or whether in some cases it’s actually deliberate.

It was programmed for conversion to 3 lane ALR Smart Motorway, but paused pending the Smart Motorway safety review. It is noticeably absent from the Roads Investment Strategy (RIS3) for 2026-2031.

I’ve somewhat lost track of what’s happening with that section since the smart motorways were paused. Is it the case that there’s now essentially no plan?

Whilst I’d like three lanes, I dread to think what the standard of driving would be like with a smart motorway on this section. It’s bad enough now without people having cameras and speed signs to have to react to. There does seem to be a police presence on the section, as one does see cars pulled over (and very occasional speed monitoring from the overbridge at Ayot Green ), but the real issues are lane hogging and ill-judged lane changes especially when joining the motorway. I reckon most accidents on this section are caused by these two issues.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it the case that there’s now essentially no plan?

Essentially, yes.

I’m with @Hadders - ALR 3 lane would be the best. Just like stretches of the A3, A14, etc where it isnt an issue.

 

[Hadders]

Essentially, yes.

I’m with @Hadders - ALR 3 lane would be the best. Just like stretches of the A3, A14, etc where it isnt an issue.

It's such a shame that even the relatively short section between J6 and J7 hasn't been converted to 3 lanes. It would make a real difference and there could be a meaningful lane drop at J7 where a lot of traffic exits. Northbound in the evening peak it would prevent the often dangerous queueing between J4 and J6 as 3 lanes become 2. Although there is a lane drop at J6 the reality is this junction is little used in comparision to J7.

Southbound at J7 in the morning peak a lane gain would help to keep the traffic moving, rather than stacked back north of J8.

 

[Ediswan]

The two lane section of the A1(M) between Welwyn and Stevenage is a real pain. For anyone unfamiliar with this stretch of road there is a 3 lane motorway between junctions 1 and 6, two lanes between junctions 6 and 8 and then three lanes north of junction 8. It's effectively the motorway version of the Welwyn Viaduct!

Ideally it would be widened to a 3-lane motorway with hard shoulders in each direction but this is highly unlikely to happen any time due to lack of funding. So, if there was sufficient funding to convert the hard shoulder to create a permanent running would this be better than doing nothing and solidering on with an unfit for purpose, highly congested two lane motorway but with a hard shoulder.

On balance, I'd probably prefer a smart motorway solution. In the real world we'll have to soldier on with the current set up as no more new smart motorways will be built.

I believe the plan which never happened was for four running lanes from Welwyn J6 up to J8.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe the plan which never happened was for four running lanes from Welwyn J6 up to J8.

It was 3 lanes each way, no hard shoulder.

 

[bramling]

It was 3 lanes each way, no hard shoulder.

ISTR there was a plan in the 90s for three lanes (presumably in those days that would have included a hard shoulder) or possibly even 4 though I don’t recall that. Killed off by New Labour as I recall, so a complete generation of people have endured hardship ever since as a result.

 

[Hadders]

ISTR there was a plan in the 90s for three lanes (presumably in those days that would have included a hard shoulder) or possibly even 4 though I don’t recall that. Killed off by New Labour as I recall, so a complete generation of people have endured hardship ever since as a result.

I don't recall any plans from the 1990s although for most of that decade I was living elsewhere.

I do remember the 3 lane smart motorway plan for that stretch of the A1(M). Work was due to start in March 2020 but the plan was put on hold by the then Transport Secretary Grant Shapps (ironically the MP for nearby Hatfield) in January 2020 - a matter of weeks before work was due to start.

 

[Shrop]

I don't recall any plans from the 1990s although for most of that decade I was living elsewhere.

I do remember the 3 lane smart motorway plan for that stretch of the A1(M). Work was due to start in March 2020 but the plan was put on hold by the then Transport Secretary Grant Shapps (ironically the MP for nearby Hatfield) in January 2020 - a matter of weeks before work was due to start.

"Ironically"? This seems to have been quite a theme for the Tories and transport projects in the early 2020s - how could we ever forget Sunak killing off HS2's leg to Manchester, and announcing it whilst actually there?

Remember those promises he made about the UK having "A brighter future" as a direct result of the money saved, including "a net positive for transport".

So what is this "net positive" that we ought to be seeing by now, which is supposedly good enough to be worth the sacrifice of the Manchester (and Leeds) legs of HS2?

I'll return more directly to the original subject of bad traffic enforcement soon, but with so many £billions saved by savaging parts of HS2, maybe this "net positive for transport" could have included some action towards better traffic enforcement?

 

[Bikeman78]

I've limited experience of driving in Wales since the 20mph limits were introduced. The little experience I have reinforces my long held view that applying blanket limits without the credibility of the underlying policy and, more importantly, effectiveness by encouraging drivers to think they know better. For what it's worth, I also take the view that a national speed limit that applies unless otherwise reduced is also counter-productive - I used to do a drive where I came off an A-road with a (low) 40mph restriction onto a country lane, which was signed at the national restriction.

I can think of some limits that are sensible. The A48 between Newport and Cardiff is 50 mph. It's a four lane road with no central reservation. There are plenty of side turnings, so joining the road is tricky, so 50 seems sensible. Likewise, several of the country lanes bounded by Dorking, Reigate and Horsham have a 40 limit, which any sensible driver would rarely exceed anyway.

As you say, the blanket 20 across residential areas in Wales is excessive. For example, there is no reason why Willowbrook Drive in St Mellons should not be 30. The houses are built around dead end roads that branch off the main road. There are a few subways. It's rare to see pedestrians crossing that road. Likewise Newport Road between Llaneirwg Way and Cypress Drive. That was 40 until a few years ago. It dropped to 30, and now 20. All the houses are on the north side. There is no pavement on the south side. The only pedestrians I have ever seen are people walking from the house to their car

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Apr 2026 ==

Whatever else you think of it the Wales 20mph is pretty easy to deal with, everywhere that used to be 30 is 20 no random bits of 20 here and there

That is not true I'm afraid. Newport Road has 20 and 30 mph sections. The A470 from Cardiff to Llandudno has different limits through different towns and villages. It's not 20 through all of them.

 

[35B]

I can think of some limits that are sensible. The A48 between Newport and Cardiff is 50 mph. It's a four lane road with no central reservation. There are plenty of side turnings, so joining the road is tricky, so 50 seems sensible. Likewise, several of the country lanes bounded by Dorking, Reigate and Horsham have a 40 limit, which any sensible driver would rarely exceed anyway.

As you say, the blanket 20 across residential areas in Wales is excessive. For example, there is no reason why Willowbrook Drive in St Mellons should not be 30. The houses are built around dead end roads that branch off the main road. There are a few subways. It's rare to see pedestrians crossing that road. Likewise Newport Road between Llaneirwg Way and Cypress Drive. That was 40 until a few years ago. It dropped to 30, and now 20. All the houses are on the north side. There is no pavement on the south side. The only pedestrians I have ever seen are people walking from the house to their car

I am absolutely not against lower limits where appropriate - it is the use of blanket limits without analysis that I take issue with. The old approach of using traffic surveys and weighting the results against average speed has a lot to say for it, because it reflects how people actually use the road.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I am absolutely not against lower limits where appropriate - it is the use of blanket limits without analysis that I take issue with. The old approach of using traffic surveys and weighting the results against average speed has a lot to say for it, because it reflects how people actually use the road.

So long as it’s not the American approach of choosing 80% of the average as the limit.

 

[Bikeman78]

I am absolutely not against lower limits where appropriate - it is the use of blanket limits without analysis that I take issue with. The old approach of using traffic surveys and weighting the results against average speed has a lot to say for it, because it reflects how people actually use the road.

To be clear, I completely agree with you. Some roads have limits that appear to be lower than they need to be.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Experiences differ. As I said, I rarely see lights jumped, and that includes in medium to large towns and cities. And that inclides innShropshire. It certainly is not almost every time they turn red.

Shropshire is obviously far more civilised than West Yorkshire then. There's a signalled crossroads not far from my home where there's always a few stragglers sneaking through after the red (not even the amber) is displayed, in every cycle. Mostly members of the "Private Hire" minicab mafia of course.

 

[Shrop]

Shropshire is obviously far more civilised than West Yorkshire then. There's a signalled crossroads not far from my home where there's always a few stragglers sneaking through after the red (not even the amber) is displayed, in every cycle. Mostly members of the "Private Hire" minicab mafia of course.

I don't know about "civilised" in comparison with West Yorkshire, but there certainly are plenty of people who drive through red lights in Shropshire, just as there are throughout most of the UK.

I was somewhat surprised to see that anyone should say they haven't seen many instances of it, all that tells me is that they haven't looked very hard.

 

[bramling]

I don't know about "civilised" in comparison with West Yorkshire, but there certainly are plenty of people who drive through red lights in Shropshire, just as there are throughout most of the UK.

I was somewhat surprised to see that anyone should say they haven't seen many instances of it, all that tells me is that they haven't looked very hard.

It’s pretty rare for vehicles to be driven straight through red lights, even in London (cycles excepted). What does happen is people chancing it when lights turn red, which seems to be slightly more common in London and the south-east than elsewhere IME.