What would an ideal recast of the South Western routes look like?

[NCT]

Why are there many trains skipping Clapham Junction?

In fact, in reality, most peak time Main Line trains skip Clapham Junction. The reason is that the Main Lines only have one (effective) platform face per direction. Rolling stock, dispatch procedures and signalling are such that, if you are to run at say 20-24tph, you can't accommodate platform occupation and reoccupation within 2.5 minutes.

In the Up direction there are two platforms. However:
- Platform 8 is concave, the guard can't see the full length of the train when closing doors.
- Platform 7 is on a sharp turnout requiring approach control, and any service that pulls into platform 7 loses too much time and creates too large a headway behind.

So what happens is that all morning peak services run through platform 8 non-stop, and select off-peak services call at platform 7 where the time (and capacity) penalty is less of an issue for the less intensive peak timetable.

 

[jfollows]

See https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 26/Kent, Sussex & Wessex Sectional Appendix March 2026.pdf

SW100 – WATERLOO TO CLAPHAM JUNCTION

CLAPHAM JUNCTION – Platform 8 Up Main Fast

Due to a gap that is considered too wide for normal use by stopping passenger trains. The Up Main Fast platform 8 at Clapham Junction must only be used for stopping passenger trains in an emergency.

If an emergency situation occurs that requires the use of platform 8 for a train to stop, the following must be applied before the train concerned is allowed to proceed from W132 signal on the Up Main Fast line approaching Clapham Junction;

• The station staff at Clapham Junction must be advised of the train that is requiring to stop

• The driver of the train must be advised that they will be stopping at platform 8. The driver is to advise the guard of the circumstance to allow a passenger announcement to be made.

In other than an emergency situation, for example the Up Loop, platform 7 is unavailable for any reason, no trains are permitted to stop on platform 8 and will run fast to London Waterloo and not call at Clapham Junction.

In this circumstance, the signaller will advise the station staff at Clapham and the train(s) concerned of these arrangements, until such time that the Up Loop, platform 7 is available again. The driver is to advise the guard of the circumstance to allow a passenger announcement to be made.

The Shift Signaller Manager will advise the WICC of any of the above circumstances if they arise.

The Local and/or Operations Manager and On Call Manager can be contacted if there is any dubiety around the implementation of these instructions in connection service alterations and/or recovery with the WICC.

Dated: 03/12/16

In “my day”, so 1980-84, virtually nothing stopped at Clapham Junction on the main lines. That’s because Clapham Junction and environs were places that nobody claimed to live in. Now, that’s changed, and both Clapham (Junction) and Battersea are “desirable“.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

- Platform 8 is concave, the guard can't see the full length of the train when closing doors.

It's also a massive drop from train to platform due to the cant, which can't realistically be overcome by raising the height of the platform alone (aka: Isle of Wight style) due to the associated distance between carriage (particularly with doors at one third and two third positions) and the platform edge.

 

[PTR 444]

In fact, in reality, most peak time Main Line trains skip Clapham Junction. The reason is that the Main Lines only have one (effective) platform face per direction. Rolling stock, dispatch procedures and signalling are such that, if you are to run at say 20-24tph, you can't accommodate platform occupation and reoccupation within 2.5 minutes.

In the Up direction there are two platforms. However:
- Platform 8 is concave, the guard can't see the full length of the train when closing doors.
- Platform 7 is on a sharp turnout requiring approach control, and any service that pulls into platform 7 loses too much time and creates too large a headway behind.

So what happens is that all morning peak services run through platform 8 non-stop, and select off-peak services call at platform 7 where the time (and capacity) penalty is less of an issue for the less intensive peak timetable.

Out of interest, what’s the maximum frequency of trains per hour you can run on the SWML fast lines through Clapham Junction if every single one called there?

 

[jfollows]

Out of interest, what’s the maximum frequency of trains per hour you can run on the SWML fast lines through Clapham Junction if every single one called there?

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo.../TPR documents/TPR 2026/V4/TPR 2026 V4 WX.pdf says 2.5 minutes headway for stopping trains, if I interpret it correctly. That’d mean 24 per hour, wouldn’t it?

 

[Mgameing123]

In fact, in reality, most peak time Main Line trains skip Clapham Junction. The reason is that the Main Lines only have one (effective) platform face per direction. Rolling stock, dispatch procedures and signalling are such that, if you are to run at say 20-24tph, you can't accommodate platform occupation and reoccupation within 2.5 minutes.

In the Up direction there are two platforms. However:
- Platform 8 is concave, the guard can't see the full length of the train when closing doors.
- Platform 7 is on a sharp turnout requiring approach control, and any service that pulls into platform 7 loses too much time and creates too large a headway behind.

So what happens is that all morning peak services run through platform 8 non-stop, and select off-peak services call at platform 7 where the time (and capacity) penalty is less of an issue for the less intensive peak timetable.

What can we do to get more trains to stop at Clapham Junction. It's a waste to not utilize the interchange possibilities!

 

[jfollows]

What can we do to get more trains to stop at Clapham Junction. It's a waste to not utilize the interchange possibilities!

Surely the problem, in essence, is either that everything stops there or almost nothing does. Like Watford Junction. If everything stops, then everything is slowed down a bit. It’d probably also require “something” to be done to allow platform 8 to be used for up services, or make the approach to platform 7 less restrictive.

I only found a use for the station recently, because a former friend lives in Clapham itself. Otherwise, I cycled past it when I was a student, but rarely used it. For sure, changing to a Victoria train if that was my destination, or vice-versa could be helpful. A bit.

 

[Zomboid]

Clapham Junction is reasonably well served outside the peaks from what I recall, but do enough people who catch trains on the main fasts want the interchange to warrant slowing everyone's journey by 4 or so minutes? Waterloo is well connected to the places that commuters want to get to, and anyone changing from the Victoria side has the main slows and Windsor lines to choose from.

It's no doubt a bit annoying for someone from Farnborough to need to change twice to get to Victoria, but are there really that many people who want to make that journey?

 

[jfollows]

It's no doubt a bit annoying for someone from Farnborough to need to change twice to get to Victoria, but are there really that many people who want to make that journey?

Yes, get the Underground, many of them won’t want Victoria itself as their final destination anyway.

 

[NCT]

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo.../TPR documents/TPR 2026/V4/TPR 2026 V4 WX.pdf says 2.5 minutes headway for stopping trains, if I interpret it correctly. That’d mean 24 per hour, wouldn’t it?

The Up Main minimum dwell time is 1.5 minutes. Platform reoccupation is 2 minutes. This means 3.5 minutes between trains.

What can we do to get more trains to stop at Clapham Junction. It's a waste to not utilize the interchange possibilities!

*If* demand assessment says ideally everything should call at Clapham Junction (not just for Victoria, but also Overground, and being able to get to Vauxhall, Battersea and Wimbledon without doubling back at Waterloo), then some combination of the following might do it
- Rolling stock layout and dispatch procedure do get all dwell times down to 1 minute max
- Signalling or a change in operational norm to get platform reoccupation down to 1.5 minutes (e.g. train planning rule written on yellow signals)
- Reducing the cant through platform 8 to bring stepping distance / height to within norm - would reduce through speed but might not be an issue if demand modelling says everything should stopp

 

[jfollows]

The Up Main minimum dwell time is 1.5 minutes. Platform reoccupation is 2 minutes. This means 3.5 minutes between trains.

So something like 17 trains per hour, then, I guess.

 

[Mgameing123]

Clapham Junction is reasonably well served outside the peaks from what I recall, but do enough people who catch trains on the main fasts want the interchange to warrant slowing everyone's journey by 4 or so minutes? Waterloo is well connected to the places that commuters want to get to, and anyone changing from the Victoria side has the main slows and Windsor lines to choose from.

It's no doubt a bit annoying for someone from Farnborough to need to change twice to get to Victoria, but are there really that many people who want to make that journey?

Yes, get the Underground, many of them won’t want Victoria itself as their final destination anyway.

Well I was thinking more about people who want to avoid London. Clapham Junction is the place to change if you’re going towards the Southern area and of course the Overground.

 

[jfollows]

Well I was thinking more about people who want to avoid London. Clapham Junction is the place to change if you’re going towards the Southern area and of course the Overground.

Good point; there are some tickets which aren’t valid via Waterloo/Victoria also.

 

[Palmerston]

Following on from the popular thread on an “ideal” recast for Bristol, i’d be interested to see how the same could be achieved on a much more complex network, covering a larger commuter belt serving multiple cites.

A fully enhanced timetable on the SWML is unlikely to happen for many years, if not decades, owing to the necessary infrastructure improvements needed to make it a reality, but let's imagine Crossrail 2, Woking Flyover, Basingstoke - Southampton quad tracking and double tracking on the WofE line are fully complete and in operation. What would your ideal ambition for improved service provision within the SWML operating area look like?

For the purposes of this thread, Only the "country" services which run west of Woking are included. My ideal recast would be as follows:


1tph London Waterloo - Andover
Calling at: Woking, Hook, Basingstoke, Oakley, Overton, Whitchurch, ANDOVER


Please feel free to give constructive criticism and include your own suggestions.

Re trains to Andover, is there a proposal to re-open part of the line that used to run from Andover up to Marlborough? Could anything intending to terminate to Andover continue on to a couple of additional stations?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Rolling stock layout and dispatch procedure do get all dwell times down to 1 minute max
- Signalling or a change in operational norm to get platform reoccupation down to 1.5 minutes (e.g. train planning rule written on yellow signals)
- Reducing the cant through platform 8 to bring stepping distance / height to within norm - would reduce through speed but might not be an issue if demand modelling says everything should stop

Observations:

Dispatch procedure within the SW area (which includes the FL's through Clapham Jn - p7/8/9) is unlikely to ever be reduced to one minute max at all locations as a general rule. P9 (DMF) as currently operated is the best of the three at Clapham Jn, but at times one minute is still not enough for a reliable service hour in, hour out, peaks included. The travelling public do not react kindly to a military style blowing of whistle and repeated parade ground shouts of 'get a move on' etc.

Dwell times in the Vauxhall to Wimbledon corridor were lengthened from the standard '30 seconds (as it was back then) to one minute during my time in the job, probably associated with the introduction of 508/455 stock, and it was recognised then that in busy periods some services would still struggle to get away on time, but a compromise had to be come to, so that the overall timetable could still function without having to remove a small number of trains from timetable.

Signalling/operation and approach to Clapham Junction:

The main suburban lines (p10/11) operate at maximum capacity from a signalling perspective as things stand at present, AFAIK. The Down main Fast (p9) likewise. The main long standing problem is on the Up main Fast, which has approach control for services due to call for passengers, at p7.

Those services not required to stop pass through p8, allowing approaches to be made at maximum line speed, signal aspects permitting.

Having both worked at Clapham in the signalling grade and also (in official capacity) ridden with drivers over the route, I have a memory of the issues at hand, and the approach to same on the UMF if due to stop in p7 under approach control conditions, or if just in a peak time queue of non stopping services seems painfully slow, as it will to any passenger who happens to be looking out the window and been looking at their watch!

This brings me to point 3 and the cant through p8 - to my mind the only way to lesson the cant through p8 and maintain level of service (trains p/h) on the UMF would be the demolition of p7/8 platform as is, and an easing of the UMF curve through the station by a (very) slight re-alignment (in a NW direction) between St. Johns Hill bridge and Falcon Road underbridge. In truth my gut feeling is that any such plan would be of VERY minimal benefit to the overall timetable (and at vast expense), and would also deprive Clapham Up Main Fast of a second platform that has in the past been beneficial for terminating trains in times of disruption, and would also compromise access to Clapham Yard from the West UMF direction.

Demand modelling scenarios can be made to drive agenda's various in my experience, but do not necessarily reflect the best/optimum service for everyone using the service at any given location in the real world.

 

[swt_passenger]

Re trains to Andover, is there a proposal to re-open part of the line that used to run from Andover up to Marlborough? Could anything intending to terminate to Andover continue on to a couple of additional stations?

I’ve never seen anything official, in fact I doubt we’d see trains terminating at Andover anyway.

 

[The Ham]

Of course the other solution to mamy of the issues at Clapham Junction is to build Crossrail 2.

As that would allow more services to call there, however would also give places like Surbiton and Wimbledon as an alternative change points to access the wider London mass transit systems.

 

[NCT]

Of course the other solution to mamy of the issues at Clapham Junction is to build Crossrail 2.

As that would allow more services to call there, however would also give places like Surbiton and Wimbledon as an alternative change points to access the wider London mass transit systems.

Crossrail 2 would have many benefits, but wouldn't solve the platform 7/8 issue at Clapham Junction.

 

[The Ham]

Crossrail 2 would have many benefits, but wouldn't solve the platform 7/8 issue at Clapham Junction.

The issue of platform 7/8 wouldn't be so significant (and i didn't say that it would fix all the problems, rather it couldsolve manyof the issues) if there were other ways to transfer from SWML services to get to (say) Victoria or to avoid gong into Waterloo to get back to Vauxhall or to interchange with other parts of the wider London transport system.

That's before you factor in that the 8tph extra services which could run to/through Woking would be able to call at other platforms at Clapham Junction.

Yes there would still be issues, however they would be less keenly felt and there would be more alternatives to pick from.

 

[PTR 444]

Following on from the popular thread on an “ideal” recast for Bristol, i’d be interested to see how the same could be achieved on a much more complex network, covering a larger commuter belt serving multiple cites.

A fully enhanced timetable on the SWML is unlikely to happen for many years, if not decades, owing to the necessary infrastructure improvements needed to make it a reality, but let's imagine Crossrail 2, Woking Flyover, Basingstoke - Southampton quad tracking and double tracking on the WofE line are fully complete and in operation. What would your ideal ambition for improved service provision within the SWML operating area look like?

For the purposes of this thread, Only the "country" services which run west of Woking are included. My ideal recast would be as follows:

1tph London Waterloo - Weymouth
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Poole, Hamworthy, Holton Heath, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South, Upwey, WEYMOUTH

1tph London Waterloo - Weymouth
Calling at: Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Dorchester South, WEYMOUTH

1tph London Waterloo - Poole
Calling at: Woking, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Totton, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, POOLE

1tph London Waterloo - Poole
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Totton, Ashurst (New Forest), Beaulieu Road, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, POOLE

1tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Woking, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Basingstoke, Micheldever, Winchester, Eastleigh, Hedge End, Botley, Fareham, Portchester, Cosham, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

1tph London Waterloo - Fareham
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Basingstoke, Winchester, Shawford, Eastleigh, Hedge End, Botley, FAREHAM

1tph London Waterloo - Exeter St David's
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Gillingham, Sherborne, Yeovil Junction, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Pinhoe, Exeter Central, EXETER ST DAVID'S

1tph London Waterloo - Yeovil Pen Mill
Calling at: Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil Junction, YEOVIL PEN MILL

1tph London Waterloo - Salisbury
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Oakley, Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley, SALISBURY

1tph London Waterloo - Andover
Calling at: Woking, Hook, Basingstoke, Oakley, Overton, Whitchurch, ANDOVER

2tph London Waterloo - Basingstoke
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Surbiton, Walton-on-Thames, Weybridge, Woking, Brookwood, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Winchfield, Hook, BASINGSTOKE

2tph London Waterloo - Alton
Calling at: Surbiton, West Byfleet, Woking, Brookwood, Ash Vale, Aldershot, Farnham, Bentley, ALTON

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth & Southsea
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Guildford, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Rowlands Castle, Havant, Bedhampton, Hilsea, Fratton, PORTSMOUTH & SOUTHSEA

2tph London Waterloo - Haslemere
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Worplesdon, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Milford, Witley, HASLEMERE

2tph Romsey - Hythe (Southampton Metro service)
Calling at: Chandler's Ford, Eastleigh, Swaythling, St Denys, Southampton Central, Millbrook, Redbridge, Totton, Marchwood, HYTHE


Please feel free to give constructive criticism and include your own suggestions.

Time for a second revision!

Following on from previous replies, I feel that standardising the SWML service patterns to provide as close to even 2tph intervals on each route is a good idea moving forward. There will be some edge cases where this isn’t always possible, but based on knowledge of the area, I feel that the following off-peak base service pattern is something we should be aiming for as a long term goal:

2tph London Waterloo - Weymouth
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South, Upwey, WEYMOUTH

2tph London Waterloo - Poole
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, POOLE

2tph London Waterloo - Yeovil Junction
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil Junction. 1tph continues to YEOVIL PEN MILL. Other tph continues to Exeter St David's, calling at Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Pinhoe, Exeter Central, EXETER ST DAVID'S

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Micheldever, Winchester, Shawford, Eastleigh, Hedge End, Botley, Fareham, Portchester, Cosham, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

2tph London Waterloo - Salisbury
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Hook, Basingstoke, Oakley, Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley, SALISBURY

2tph London Waterloo - Oakley
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Surbiton, Weybridge, Woking, Brookwood, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Winchfield, Hook, Basingstoke, OAKLEY

2tph London Waterloo - Alton
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Brookwood, Ash Vale, Aldershot, Farnham, Bentley, ALTON

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Guildford, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Rowlands Castle, Havant, Bedhampton, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

2tph London Waterloo - Haslemere
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Worplesdon, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Milford, Witley, HASLEMERE

2tph Romsey - Wareham
Calling at: Chandler's Ford, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Swaythling, St Denys, Southampton Central, Millbrook, Redbridge, Totton, Ashurst (New Forest), Beaulieu Road, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, Poole, Hamworthy, Holton Heath, WAREHAM

2tph Portsmouth & Southsea - Hythe
Calling at: Fratton, Hilsea, Cosham, Portchester, Fareham, Swanwick, Bursledon, Hamble, Netley, Sholing, Woolston, Bitterne, St Denys, Southampton Central, Totton, Marchwood, HYTHE

Other services

• Keep 1tph XC Manchester - Bournemouth, but bin off the 2 hourly Southampton extensions of the Newcastle service
• Keep Cardiff - Portsmouth and Southampton - Brighton as is
• Incorporate the Southampton - Salisbury portion of the Romsey Rounder into the TransWilts service via Melksham to Swindon

Of course, this will require a LOT of infrastructure upgrades, particularly in the Southampton area, but this is speculative so why not? Addressing the rolling stock issue, I propose that a new fleet is introduced which matches the Class 444s and 450s, but with battery capability so they can run along lines without third rail, or where the power supply is inadequate for the frequency of trains. The remaining 444s and 450s can be used to strengthen services which run entirely on third rail.

 

[gabrielhj07]

2tph London Waterloo - Yeovil Junction
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil Junction. 1tph continues to YEOVIL PEN MILL. Other tph continues to Exeter St David's, calling at Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Pinhoe, EXETER ST DAVID'S

Infrastructure permitting, it would make more sense to me to send the second hourly train to Exeter as well.

 

[alf]

As a user of the Bournemouth line for very many years an Improvement of a couple of years ago is recent for me. But I have not seen any one else commenting on the upgrade.Am I imaging it?

The miserably slow approach into Clapham J’s platform 7 up loop has been greatly improved. The approach control must have been made less severe and/or a flashing signal before Clapham installed as at Woking for trains turning left towards Guildford.

Now drivers brake steadily from 75 to about 25 & then brake for the 15 mph into the platform loop.
Two years ago & for years before every driver was slowed to about 12 or 15 mph at the approach controlled signal & then reaccelerated to about 25 before braking to 15 for the loop platform.
Well done whoever initiated this useful change & time saver which probably cost nothing to do. But why not years ago!

 

[Farnborough]

Clapham Junction is reasonably well served outside the peaks from what I recall, but do enough people who catch trains on the main fasts want the interchange to warrant slowing everyone's journey by 4 or so minutes?

Clapham is Zone 2, and hence avoids the London Terminals premium... and the inevitable crush on the underground.

It's no doubt a bit annoying for someone from Farnborough to need to change twice to get to Victoria, but are there really that many people who want to make that journey?

Funny you should ask that... while I've only ever done CLJ-VIC twice (I think!), I regularly do change at CLJ for the Overground (east and west) and Southern to avoid the central zone.

But, to be honest, for me the bigger gripe is skipping Wimbledon (District Line, Thameslink, tramlink) - which will have to change for Crossrail 2

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Time for a second revision!

Following on from previous replies, I feel that standardising the SWML service patterns to provide as close to even 2tph intervals on each route is a good idea moving forward. There will be some edge cases where this isn’t always possible, but based on knowledge of the area, I feel that the following off-peak base service pattern is something we should be aiming for as a long term goal:

2tph London Waterloo - Weymouth
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South, Upwey, WEYMOUTH

2tph London Waterloo - Poole
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, POOLE

2tph London Waterloo - Yeovil Junction
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil Junction. 1tph continues to YEOVIL PEN MILL. Other tph continues to Exeter St David's, calling at Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Pinhoe, EXETER ST DAVID'S

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Micheldever, Winchester, Shawford, Eastleigh, Hedge End, Botley, Fareham, Portchester, Cosham, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

2tph London Waterloo - Salisbury
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Hook, Basingstoke, Oakley, Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley, SALISBURY

2tph London Waterloo - Oakley
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Surbiton, Weybridge, Woking, Brookwood, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Winchfield, Hook, Basingstoke, OAKLEY

2tph London Waterloo - Alton
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Brookwood, Ash Vale, Aldershot, Farnham, Bentley, ALTON

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Guildford, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Rowlands Castle, Havant, Bedhampton, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

2tph London Waterloo - Haslemere
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Worplesdon, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Milford, Witley, HASLEMERE

2tph Romsey - Wareham
Calling at: Chandler's Ford, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Swaythling, St Denys, Southampton Central, Millbrook, Redbridge, Totton, Ashurst (New Forest), Beaulieu Road, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, Poole, Hamworthy, Holton Heath, WAREHAM

2tph Portsmouth & Southsea - Hythe
Calling at: Fratton, Hilsea, Cosham, Portchester, Fareham, Swanwick, Bursledon, Hamble, Netley, Sholing, Woolston, Bitterne, St Denys, Southampton Central, Totton, Marchwood, HYTHE

Other services

• Keep 1tph XC Manchester - Bournemouth, but bin off the 2 hourly Southampton extensions of the Newcastle service
• Keep Cardiff - Portsmouth and Southampton - Brighton as is
• Incorporate the Southampton - Salisbury portion of the Romsey Rounder into the TransWilts service via Melksham to Swindon

Of course, this will require a LOT of infrastructure upgrades, particularly in the Southampton area, but this is speculative so why not? Addressing the rolling stock issue, I propose that a new fleet is introduced which matches the Class 444s and 450s, but with battery capability so they can run along lines without third rail, or where the power supply is inadequate for the frequency of trains. The remaining 444s and 450s can be used to strengthen services which run entirely on third rail.

That looks to me like a much improved suggestion. The all-round half-hourly frequency should make rail much more attractive for a lot of journeys outside London, giving many places a much more regular, predictable, timetable than they currently see. And the fact that you've got everything stopping at the major interchanges will also make travel between the different branches of the SWML much more feasible. I'm pretty sure a timetable like that would attract much higher usage for journeys outside London than today, while still keeping journeys to London just as convenient.

My only minor doubts are whether Salisbury-London and Southampton-Bournemouth can really sustain the level of service you've suggested. And I'm not sure there's any reason to stop the London-Weymouth trains at Brockenhurst, which is after all a very small town. And I'm sure it's a typo, but presumably you want the Exeter trains to call at Exeter Central?

 

[Zomboid]

My only minor doubts are whether Salisbury-London and Southampton-Bournemouth can really sustain the level of service you've suggested. And I'm not sure there's any reason to stop the London-Weymouth trains at Brockenhurst, which is after all a very small town. And I'm sure it's a typo, but presumably you want the Exeter trains to call at Exeter Central

I don't see how Salisbury will need 4tph to London, but I wonder if Brockenhurst, being the junction for Lymington and Yarmouth isn't more of a Weymouth/ Wareham to... destination rather than a London to... It's also a major tourist hub of the New Forest national park, which isn't a massive year round deal, but will drive more traffic than the size of the town would imply.

 

[PTR 444]

That looks to me like a much improved suggestion. The all-round half-hourly frequency should make rail much more attractive for a lot of journeys outside London, giving many places a much more regular, predictable, timetable than they currently see. And the fact that you've got everything stopping at the major interchanges will also make travel between the different branches of the SWML much more feasible. I'm pretty sure a timetable like that would attract much higher usage for journeys outside London than today, while still keeping journeys to London just as convenient.

I agree. Just needs the infrastructure improvements and rolling stock to make it a reality.

My only minor doubts are whether Salisbury-London and Southampton-Bournemouth can really sustain the level of service you've suggested. And I'm not sure there's any reason to stop the London-Weymouth trains at Brockenhurst, which is after all a very small town.

I’d say Weymouth - Brockenhurst warrants a direct link, due to the demand for the college and connections to Lymington trains.

And I'm sure it's a typo, but presumably you want the Exeter trains to call at Exeter Central?

Yes, I somehow completely forgot about that one! I’ll amend my post.

 

[JonathanH]

2tph London Waterloo - Weymouth
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South, Upwey, WEYMOUTH

2tph London Waterloo - Poole
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, POOLE

2tph Romsey - Wareham
Calling at: Chandler's Ford, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport, Swaythling, St Denys, Southampton Central, Millbrook, Redbridge, Totton, Ashurst (New Forest), Beaulieu Road, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, Poole, Hamworthy, Holton Heath, WAREHAM

How do you intend that this works between Southampton and Wareham, even if some infrastructure changes could be made? Does the Weymouth train have pathing time to allow the stops in the other services, or is some overtaking involved?

 

[The Ham]

I don't see how Salisbury will need 4tph to London, but I wonder if Brockenhurst, being the junction for Lymington and Yarmouth isn't more of a Weymouth/ Wareham to... destination rather than a London to... It's also a major tourist hub of the New Forest national park, which isn't a massive year round deal, but will drive more traffic than the size of the town would imply.

Going to Waterloo, realistically people are only likely to be using 2tph (the two going beyond Salisbury) as the other two would be taking longer than changing at Basingstoke.

The need for the other 2 services is to:
- provide connectivity to the minor stations between Salisbury and Basingstoke
- provide connectivity to other places without having to change at Basingstoke
- frees up junction capacity at Basingstoke by turning trains west of the station
- gives the potential to look at additional stations along the line if there was new development and/or a large employment site

 

[PTR 444]

How do you intend that this works between Southampton and Wareham, even if some infrastructure changes could be made? Does the Weymouth train have pathing time to allow the stops in the other services, or is some overtaking involved?

As a general concensus, I would ensure that these trains are timed so that:

• The Poole semi-fast departs London Waterloo in the next available path after the Weymouth fast, to (hopefully) avoid it being overtaken by the next one.
• At Southampton Central, the Wareham stopper departs within 10 minutes of the Weymouth fast departing. This may require it to be overtaken by the fast at SOU if starting from Romsey.
• The stopper would probably need to be overtaken by the semi-fast at some point along the route. The best station to do this would be at Brockenhurst, since platform 1 is already set up to do this and platform 4 could be reconfigured to do the same for the down direction, assuming the Lymington branch can still fit in between.
• There should be a roughly 10-20 minute interval between trains calling at all stations from Christchurch to Poole.
• The stopper should arrive in Wareham less than 10 minutes before the next Weymouth fast is due to arrive.
• CrossCountry trains from Manchester to Bournemouth would be flighted in the last available path before one of the Weymouth fasts.

 

[Nammer]

2tph London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour
Calling at: Clapham Junction, Woking, Guildford, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Rowlands Castle, Havant, Bedhampton, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR

So a slower service to/from Portsmouth? I'm sure that will please a lot of people! I can't see many of the smaller stations (Liphook, Liss, Rowlands Castle, Bedhampton & Hilsea) requiring 2tph to/from London, off peak and Godalming needing 4tph.