ScotRail longer distance services: should there be buffet or at seat catering options?

[Stathern Jc]

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222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

Alstom just revealed it has the 10 year refurbishment and maintenance contract for 222s for Scotrail (option to extend to March 2042) so move to Scotland now official 19 Mar 2026 Alstom secures long-term train services and refurbishment contracts for £330 million[1] (€380 million) with...

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The seating layout is being altered as part of the refurbishment, which will include a reduction in First Class accommodation and the removal of the buffet counter.

Sadly, the removal of the buffet counter speaks volumes about Scotrail's attitude as to what sort of offerings are suitable for longer distance travellers.

I'm probably not the only one who had hoped for something better than a trolley which might not have much left by the time it has already travelled through the 4 other coaches, and a coffee from a flask which might only be lukewarm by the time it has already travelled a couple of hours along the journey.

Is this going to attract those passengers who make an automatic decision to take the LNER services? Or their cars if their destination isn't conveniently close to a station?
I don't think it will me.

 

[RiverDon]

Sadly, the removal of the buffet counter speaks volumes about Scotrail's attitude as to what sort of offerings are suitable for longer distance travellers.
I'm probably not the only one who had hoped for something better than a trolley which might not have much left by the time it has already travelled through the 4 other coaches, and a coffee from a flask which might only be lukewarm by the time it has already travelled a couple of hours along the journey.

Is this going to attract those passengers who make an automatic decision to take the LNER services? Or their cars if their destination isn't conveniently close to a station?
I don't think it will me.

It looks like they're keeping the first class kitchen bit though, from the info I've seen.

Did they ever use the cafe bit on the HSTs for serving standard class passengers? I know it is out of use because of the electric supply problem but were they ever actually commissioned in the first place? Having been in for a nose round, it is a very expensive looking coffee machine to sit idle for years!

 

[Russel]

Is this going to attract those passengers who make an automatic decision to take the LNER services? Or their cars if their destination isn't conveniently close to a station?
I don't think it will me.

You're overthinking things here, the average passenger isn't going to be making any decisions based on weather the coffee they may or may not buy comes from a counter or trolley, or even care for that matter.

Times and ticket prices are 99% of what goes into making a decision.

 

[HighlandStorm]

It looks like they're keeping the first class kitchen bit though, from the info I've seen.

Did they ever use the cafe bit on the HSTs for serving standard class passengers? I know it is out of use because of the electric supply problem but were they ever actually commissioned in the first place? Having been in for a nose round, it is a very expensive looking coffee machine to sit idle for years!

Yes, the Inter7City cafe when used was available to everyone, but I'm only aware of there ever being one member of catering staff on board, so the buffet was only used between trips through the train with the trolley. But it did give the option for having proper coffee. I think before covid ScotRail were taking pre-brewed coffee in thermal jugs on the trolleys, but now where there is catering it is just instant coffee with pots of hot water.

Sadly the scope of onboard catering has not come anywhere near back to what it was pre-pandemic. If they are keeping the first class catering capacity, perhaps instead of a buffet counter an at seat ordering system could be available throughout the train - that would allow more to be served than just a trolley could manage.

At seat ordering, would also alleviate the issue of passengers carrying hot drinks through the train - I'm sure I heard that the unions raising concerns about this contributed to the HST buffets being abandoned. Similar arguments quickly saw the class 170 buffets shutdown, then removed when they were introduced around 20 years ago and was supposed to herald a step change in catering on the HML.

Also pre-pandemic, weren't the Highland Explorer 153s were supposed to have a buffet counter and proper coffee machine? The offering and journey experience on the WHL is frankly a national embarrassment and if you think it is adequate then you are part of the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that premium coffee is one of the most profitable potential on board catering offerings (people will pay silly money for it) not selling it seems to be a bit of an omission, though it is possible to put a Nespresso machine on a trolley, the Swiss do that. It's not like the tiny 222 buffet is useful for much else having no window, though I suppose XC style it could offer more luggage space.

 

[RiverDon]

At seat ordering, would also alleviate the issue of passengers carrying hot drinks through the train - I'm sure I heard that the unions raising concerns about this contributed to the HST buffets being abandoned. Similar arguments quickly saw the class 170 buffets shutdown, then removed when they were introduced around 20 years ago and was supposed to herald a step change in catering on the HML.

170 buffets?!?!

It's not like the tiny 222 buffet is useful for much else having no window, though I suppose XC style it could offer more luggage space.

It's being turned into bike storage with tip up seats.

 

[HighlandStorm]

170 buffets?!?!

Yes, a number of 170s were acquired from another operator complete with buffet, they were intended to primarily be used for HML services and had a number of hot food items as well as drinks and other snacks.

-edit-

A bit of googling reveals this: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+170

 

[PG]

You're overthinking things here, the average passenger isn't going to be making any decisions based on weather the coffee they may or may not buy comes from a counter or trolley, or even care for that matter.

Times and ticket prices are 99% of what goes into making a decision.

Is this going to attract those passengers who make an automatic decision to take the LNER services? Or their cars if their destination isn't conveniently close to a station?
I don't think it will me.

While you're probably right that time/price will be bigger factors than coffee I feel that @Stathern Jc is also making a more general point that I'd agree with - namely the overall onboard ambience of LNER v Scotrail.

While things have improved in that respect with the introduction of the HSTs, what leisure travellers and particularly groups value is a seat(s) and being together. Certainly on the Aberdeen services, with LNER offering four departures/arrivals a day and their trains being long (as in 9 coaches) folk know they'll be able to get a seat/sit together. Compare that with Scotrail where you may or may not be on a HST - folk have little idea if they'll end up on a 3 coach 170 where they might get lucky and find one seat left!

 

[RiverDon]

Yes, a number of 170s were acquired from another operator complete with buffet, they were intended to primarily be used for HML services and had a number of hot food items as well as drinks and other snacks.

-edit-

A bit of googling reveals this: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+170

Oh yeah, the Hull ones. I had no idea they had a counter bit. Was never mentioned in traction training!

Sorry for dragging the thread off topic

 

[Clansman]

Certainly on the Aberdeen services… folkknow they'll be able to get a seat/sit together. Compare that with Scotrail where you may or may not be on a HST - folk have little idea if they'll end up on a 3 coach 170 where they might get lucky and find one seat left!

This is extremely ironic given 1E11, 1E15 and 1S11 are notorious for being standing room only between Edinburgh and Dundee more often than they’re not - and that’s not even counting weekends and holiday seasons.

LNER have the number on ScotRail for internal Scottish journeys but I don’t think that’s because they offer more seats. For one, they don’t undercut ScotRail fares in this regard yet folk still gun for the services, despite the fact LNER journeys are slower than ScotRail ones north of Edinburgh.

It’s most certainly consistence in catering offering, the ‘big train’ going to ‘big places’ illusion, and the fact they’re not ScotRail. Ie it’s marketing and ScotRail struggling to define themselves as a premium intercity operator rather than the ‘Jack of all trades’ they’ve been since privatisation. So anything that appears to be different is going to attract attention.

But I do wonder if there is scope for the 222s to change this, though I cannot see this happening one bit. Covid killed off ScotRail’s service ambitions for the HSTs and the 222s are just going to be a quiet stop gap until the next big project.

 

[sh24]

Dare to dream the 222 kitchen might be used for a First class premium dining service.

 

[Rick1984]

I do think order to seat is the way forward.
Decent hot drinks and hot rolls is all you really need

 

[Highlander1]

Sadly, the removal of the buffet counter speaks volumes about Scotrail's attitude as to what sort of offerings are suitable for longer distance travellers.
I'm probably not the only one who had hoped for something better than a trolley which might not have much left by the time it has already travelled through the 4 other coaches, and a coffee from a flask which might only be lukewarm by the time it has already travelled a couple of hours along the journey.

Is this going to attract those passengers who make an automatic decision to take the LNER services? Or their cars if their destination isn't conveniently close to a station?
I don't think it will me.

1. It's not Scotrail attitude but the bean counters at Transport Scotland who decide these things. I do agree with the choice. A counter service adds an additional member of staff to an already loss making provision.
2. At seat catering is being provided instead so there is still an option. Sounds like it's a order to seat affair rather than a trolley. This gives them more scope for a better range of products given the size and weight limitations of a trolley
3. Comparison with LNER is unfair. LNER journeys from north of Edinburgh are in the region of 8 hours. The 222 will be used on journeys of 2-3.5 hours. The economics of providing a counter service on a 9 car train between Aberdeen and London is very different than on a 5 car train between Aberdeen and Inverness.
4. Nobody is choosing to drive because there isn't a buffet counter.

 

[scotraildriver]

1. It's not Scotrail attitude but the bean counters at Transport Scotland who decide these things. I do agree with the choice. A counter service adds an additional member of staff to an already loss making provision.
2. At seat catering is being provided instead so there is still an option. Sounds like it's a order to seat affair rather than a trolley.
3. Comparison with LNER is unfair. LNER journeys from north of Edinburgh are in the region of 8 hours. The 222 will be used on journeys of 2-3.5 hours. The economics of providing a counter service on a 9 car train between Aberdeen and London is very different than on a 5 car train between Aberdeen and Inverness.
4. Nobody is choosing to drive because there isn't a buffet counter.

There was supposed to be funding made available to reinstate the buffet counters on the HSTs about 2 years ago but it never materialised. However the fridges are now being used at least to keep the trolley stock cold so your beer won't be warm. Little things!

 

[HighlandStorm]

1. It's not Scotrail attitude but the bean counters at Transport Scotland who decide these things. I do agree with the choice. A counter service adds an additional member of staff to an already loss making provision.
[snip]
4. Nobody is choosing to drive because there isn't a buffet counter.

With respect to 4, it won't be the sole make or break decision point for most, but it will be part of the overall equation. Timing, cost, ultimate destination at the other end, convenience (or not) of having a car at the other end vs advantages of being able to have productive time on train, and overall ambience and quality of the journey are all factors.

Until / unless significant journey times improvements can be made, then where the train can clearly win on is with quality of service provision and onboard ambience. Robust and decent speed connectivity onboard is part of this too.

If I needed to make a one way journey to Stirling tomorrow morning at some point from Inverness, a trip I do quite often, it would be £46 on ScotRail standard class, but a First Class advance on the Highland Chieftain with a complimentary breakfast is £39 - that is £32 cheaper than a ScotRail first class ticket, where you might get a complimentary bottle of water left on the tray if the train is an HST!

So what the bean counters in 1 are ignoring, is that point 4 and those aggressive first class advances are getting people onto the LNER train that may well otherwise drive. I think it would get more revenue overall for ScotRail to aggressively sell advances in first class in the last few days before a trip - always keep some seats free for potential first class open ticket holders, but fill these first class seats!

 

[AMD]

Dare to dream the 222 kitchen might be used for a First class premium dining service.

Dream on might be a response....
On the proposed plans there is a galley at the driving end of the first class car (along with an 'additional luggage' space), it looks like a sink on one side with space for a microwave and a small coffee machine on the other.

 

[Highlander1]

With respect to 4, it won't be the sole make or break decision point for most, but it will be part of the overall equation. Timing, cost, ultimate destination at the other end, convenience (or not) of having a car at the other end vs advantages of being able to have productive time on train, and overall ambience and quality of the journey are all factors.

Until / unless significant journey times improvements can be made, then where the train can clearly win on is with quality of service provision and onboard ambience. Robust and decent speed connectivity onboard is part of this too.

If I needed to make a one way journey to Stirling tomorrow morning at some point from Inverness, a trip I do quite often, it would be £46 on ScotRail standard class, but a First Class advance on the Highland Chieftain with a complimentary breakfast is £39 - that is £32 cheaper than a ScotRail first class ticket, where you might get a complimentary bottle of water left on the tray if the train is an HST!

So what the bean counters in 1 are ignoring, is that point 4 and those aggressive first class advances are getting people onto the LNER train that may well otherwise drive. I think it would get more revenue overall for ScotRail to aggressively sell advances in first class in the last few days before a trip - always keep some seats free for potential first class open ticket holders, but fill these first class seats!

Yes there are a number of factors that someone would use to make that decision, whether the coffee is served from a counter or at the seat really isn't one of them for me.
Comparison of advance 1st on LNER and anytime standard on Scotrail isn't accurate. Advance tickets on both are very similar in cost, however LNER services have more available, especially between Inverness and Edinburgh, given they have so many seats to fill vs Scotrail.
This is very off the point I was making about counter vs at seat anyway given the buffet counter is generally for those in standard needing to make a purchase.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2026 ==

There was supposed to be funding made available to reinstate the buffet counters on the HSTs about 2 years ago but it never materialised. However the fridges are now being used at least to keep the trolley stock cold so your beer won't be warm. Little things!

Yeah I heard similar. I thought it was odd with the limited life of the HST fleet and given Scotrail can't afford to staff them anyway. I'll take a cold beer over a tepid coffee any day!

 

[cj_1985]

Yes, a number of 170s were acquired from another operator complete with buffet, they were intended to primarily be used for HML services and had a number of hot food items as well as drinks and other snacks.

-edit-

A bit of googling reveals this: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+170

What exactly did you expect to happen with just 4 units... that they'd keep that buffet counter and deny paying customers a seat, or keep the counter on those 4 units... or did you expect they'd modify the whole fleet


And they'd were sourced from a sister First Group company... Hull Trains, after they were replaced with 222/1s

 

[HighlandStorm]

What exactly did you expect to happen with just 4 units... that they'd keep that buffet counter and deny paying customers a seat, or keep the counter on those 4 units... or did you expect they'd modify the whole fleet


And they'd were sourced from a sister First Group company... Hull Trains, after they were replaced with 222/1s

They specially got these units for the buffet, to primarily be used on the Highland Mainline. Quite a big deal was made about them at the time and the fact they hot food was being offered on them.

 

[matchmaker]

It looks like they're keeping the first class kitchen bit though, from the info I've seen.

Did they ever use the cafe bit on the HSTs for serving standard class passengers? I know it is out of use because of the electric supply problem but were they ever actually commissioned in the first place? Having been in for a nose round, it is a very expensive looking coffee machine to sit idle for years!

Our only trip in 1st class in a Scotrail HST (Stirling to Inverness) had catering by Marks and Sparks in the Thistle Centre adjacent to the station!