ScotRail Suburban Fleet (EMU and BEMU) Market Engagement

[hexagon789]

Wider seats means narrower aisle though, and a wide aisle could fit more standing?

Depends how wide.

You could easily keep the same width aisle by having a 2+2 seating layout fit the same footprint as the existing 2+3, but just moving the aisle over so it is centred rather than off-centre as with 2+3.

 

[AilsaBus]

Wider seats means narrower aisle though, and a wide aisle could fit more standing?

People normally stand in the vestibule areas on the Glasgow Electrics, very rarely see people standing in the aisle. The 334s have 2+2 seating in the 2 end carriages and still have a reasonably wide aisle.

 

[Class83]

The standard 170 layout was pretty good for the longer (20-60min) suburban routes, would hope it's broadly the same, 2+2 with a mix of tables and airline seats.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Personally I think they should have 2+2 seating but with wider seats. I often get on 318s and 320s and always see 2 people sitting either end of a row of 3 seats with nobody wanting to sit in the middle seat.

Hard agree. More 2+2 seating. The 3+3 or 3+2 seating on the current stock is some impractical.

 

[Ben Conlin]

Compared to a 385 maybe a similar layout with half tables and larger more open space around the doors. Curious about the accessibility areas potentially being in end cars only. In terms of current platforms in service or made public would think that rules out Stadler as they until now at least have been shorter cars accessible throughout and Siemens as their Desiro verve looks low floor at all doors. Hoping there’s not an adaptation of the current Hitachi design planned but will hopefully hear in the coming months.

 

[Peter0124]

Compared to a 385 maybe a similar layout with half tables and larger more open space around the doors. Curious about the accessibility areas potentially being in end cars only. In terms of current platforms in service or made public would think that rules out Stadler as they until now at least have been shorter cars accessible throughout and Siemens as their Desiro verve looks low floor at all doors. Hoping there’s not an adaptation of the current Hitachi design planned but will hopefully hear in the coming months.

I think if its a walkthrough 5 car train, the accessibility area (wheelchair, bikes, prams) should be in carriage 3. Similar to a Thameslink 700, you'll always know where to go.

 

[Class83]

Compared to a 385 maybe a similar layout with half tables and larger more open space around the doors. Curious about the accessibility areas potentially being in end cars only. In terms of current platforms in service or made public would think that rules out Stadler as they until now at least have been shorter cars accessible throughout and Siemens as their Desiro verve looks low floor at all doors. Hoping there’s not an adaptation of the current Hitachi design planned but will hopefully hear in the coming months.

The length of routes these trains would be operating is very similar to the 385s so full tables would be sensible as the half ones don't save much space and are fairly pointless if you're in an aisle seat, but the interiors on the 170s they're replacing are quite similar to the 385s, the 158s aren't as well suited with end doors. The problem isn't as much the carriage layout, 2+2, mix of tables and airlines, and mid carriage doors. It's simply the number of carriages.

 

[The exile]

I think if its a walkthrough 5 car train, the accessibility area (wheelchair, bikes, prams) should be in carriage 3. Similar to a Thameslink 700, you'll always know where to go.

Or in 1 and 5, of course.

 

[HighlandStorm]

Could 2 four car 385s have a driving car removed and low floor full pass through cars be fitted in their place to create fixed 8 car sets with level boarding in the 2 new mid cars for the E&G express services.

Take the 2 driving cars and fit to another pair of new level boarding cars for fully accessible four car units.

I seem to recall there was an option for 10 more 385s. Could something like this be in the mix to improve accessibility of the current stock that will be in service the longest, this could there be an incentive to go with hitachi to reform at least some existing 385 sets?

 

[Peter0124]

Or in 1 and 5, of course.

That would mean having multiple though.

 

[The exile]

That would mean having multiple though.

Yes - which doubles as standing space etc. the number of services which would have enough seating with only one multi-purpose area but not with two will be small. Most will either have spare capacity or standees anyway.

 

[och aye]

I hope this is the right thread to post this, Transform Scotland have published a new discussion paper regarding the the ScotRail fleet and what they think are the important aspects of the fleet renewal.

Here's the link for those who might be interested in reading it:

Scotland’s next trains: New paper sets out case for national investment plan - Transform Scotland

Our new discussion paper sets out the critical need for a clear, ambitious investment plan to renew Scotland’s ageing train fleets. With ScotRail now operating the second oldest fleet in...

transform.scot

 

[TrainViation]

From what I read it seemed to just be a business case, highlighting why we need a new fleet rather than what it should look like for the most part. Such as things like return on interest, boosted passenger numbers, increased familiarity and reliability, modal shift etc. As well as highlighting other case studies like the Merseyrail and TfW rolling stock procurements.

 

[Fife coaster]

The transform talks a good talk but what we need is instead of taking the meridians is a fleet of hitachi 800s trI mode so are future ready so as more wires come on line the trains can change with the time without having to replace them. We also need a fleet of new dmus for the north highland and west highland as we can’t dither any longer as no new technology is going to be available for at least 20 years min to replace them as the 156,158 have done their bit but are not fit any more

 

[Highlander1]

The transform talks a good talk but what we need is instead of taking the meridians is a fleet of hitachi 800s trI mode so are future ready so as more wires come on line the trains can change with the time without having to replace them. We also need a fleet of new dmus for the north highland and west highland as we can’t dither any longer as no new technology is going to be available for at least 20 years min to replace them as the 156,158 have done their bit but are not fit any more

The subject of the 222 vs 800s has been argued to the death on various threads. A replacement for the HST is needed now and 800s are not available in a short enough time frame. The 222 is a medium term replacement ahead of a bi mode once the wires cover more of the route, which is decades away

 

[Snow1964]

The transform talks a good talk but what we need is instead of taking the meridians is a fleet of hitachi 800s trI mode so are future ready so as more wires come on line the trains can change with the time without having to replace them.

Page 19 describes the Meridians as an interim arrangement. Then goes on to say

While interim fixes are on the agenda, delaying full renewal does not save public capital. Delay merely converts any short-term savings into escalating
overheads, lost passenger revenue, and a decline in the commercial viability of the public transport network.

Basically it was all that was available to replace the 1970s HSTs, unless prepared to wait for new builds

We also need a fleet of new dmus for the north highland and west highland as we can’t dither any longer as no new technology is going to be available for at least 20 years min to replace them as the 156,158 have done their bit but are not fit any more

Interestingly on page 6 it references Norway's family trains, or Switzerlands panoramic scenic trains.
This sounds like a step change in recognising what would attract people to use the railways. Completely different to DfT approach of cram people into boxes on wheels where windows don't line up with seats.

https://transform.scot/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Scotlands-next-trains-discussion-paper-28.05.26.pdf

 

[Highlander1]

Page 19 describes the Meridians as an interim arrangement. Then goes on to say

Basically it was all that was available to replace the 1970s HSTs, unless prepared to wait for new builds



Interestingly on page 6 it references Norway's family trains, or Switzerlands panoramic scenic trains.
This sounds like a step change in recognising what would attract people to use the railways. Completely different to DfT approach of cram people into boxes on wheels where windows don't line up with seats.

https://transform.scot/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Scotlands-next-trains-discussion-paper-28.05.26.pdf

DfT is not really relevant given they have no involvement in the process. DfT doesn't cover Scotland. Scotrail have also made it clear in the tender "family" areas and improved accessibility are a requirement. I also understand panoramic style trains were looked at for rural routes but it doesn't sound like the funding is available so we'll see a reallocation of 158s and 170s onto those routes instead

 

[LocoCycle]

I hope this is the right thread to post this, Transform Scotland have published a new discussion paper regarding the the ScotRail fleet and what they think are the important aspects of the fleet renewal.

Here's the link for those who might be interested in reading it:

Scotland’s next trains: New paper sets out case for national investment plan - Transform Scotland

Our new discussion paper sets out the critical need for a clear, ambitious investment plan to renew Scotland’s ageing train fleets. With ScotRail now operating the second oldest fleet in...

transform.scot

To help discussion in later posts note that transform.scot is a lobby group, not part of the Scottish Government and so isn't a decision making body.

 

[Fife coaster]

Yeah the noises transport Scotland are making are horrendous saying that once the bemus are in service circa 2031 ish the 170s and 158s will cascade this really is awful when you see what transport For wales are doing and the new fleets taken onboard not in 5 years but now just feel theirs no ooomf to do anything just hiding behind decarbonisation instead of making the right hard decisions.

 

[Bill57p9]

The transform talks a good talk but what we need is instead of taking the meridians is a fleet of hitachi 800s trI mode so are future ready so as more wires come on line the trains can change with the time without having to replace them. We also need a fleet of new dmus for the north highland and west highland as we can’t dither any longer as no new technology is going to be available for at least 20 years min to replace them as the 156,158 have done their bit but are not fit any more

South Western too: the 156s serving Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway are feeling very tired approaching their 40th birthday.

Interestingly on page 6 it references Norway's family trains, or Switzerlands panoramic scenic trains.

Hopefully that includes Switzerland's photographic carriages with vertically opening windows.

 

[clc]

Is there a likelihood of installing digital signalling on the Argyle Line when the new trains arrive? I remember Alex Hynes saying they were looking into it a few years ago. He said they could make it even more of a metro line than it currently is.

I assume all new trains are future proofed for digital signalling?

 

[John R]

Is there a likelihood of installing digital signalling on the Argyle Line when the new trains arrive? I remember Alex Hynes saying they were looking into it a few years ago. He said they could make it even more of a metro line than it currently is.

I assume all new trains are future proofed for digital signalling?

This month's Modern Railways has a couple of articles on ETCS, and reports that Scotland is much more lukewarm about it, reinforced by the progress of the East Coast project. So I think it's highly unlikely that the suburban railways of Glasgow will have it fitted by the time the new trains arrive.

 

[Transilien]

This month's Modern Railways has a couple of articles on ETCS, and reports that Scotland is much more lukewarm about it, reinforced by the progress of the East Coast project. So I think it's highly unlikely that the suburban railways of Glasgow will have it fitted by the time the new trains arrive.

I can imagine that suburban Glasgow will be one of the last places to recive it, considering how left behind the network feels these days.

 

[D365]

I can imagine that suburban Glasgow will be one of the last places to recive it, considering how left behind the network feels these days.

This is hardly a bad thing...

 

[N1]

This is hardly a bad thing...

A bit of ATO on Cathcart Circle, Argyle and North Clyde Lines, among a few others would improve timetable. They currently have very sedate timetables, gentle acceleration and long dwells. Not very suburban.

 

[Transilien]

A bit of ATO on Cathcart Circle, Argyle and North Clyde Lines, among a few others would improve timetable. They currently have very sedate timetables, gentle acceleration and long dwells. Not very suburban.

I agree, but I think part of the problem is the use of inappropriate rolling stock like the 380s which are geared for outer suburban workings.

 

[hexagon789]

I agree, but I think part of the problem is the use of inappropriate rolling stock like the 380s which are geared for outer suburban workings.

They accelerate faster than the 318/320s do and top speed is only 10mph higher.

The 318s were originally built for 'Outer Suburban' work too.

 

[Transilien]

The 318s were originally built for 'Outer Suburban' work too.

That is true. I guess I just think that Glasgow is a special case that needs special attention as ScotRail seems to view everything on a national level.

 

[Highlander1]

Or in 1 and 5, of course.

My understanding is there will be more than one accessible area.

 

[Snow1964]

Just 3 weeks to go until the date tender said would dispatch invitations to selected candidates, wonder when that shortlist will become public

IV.2.2) Time limit for receipt of tenders or requests to participate​

Date: 19/01/2026 Local time: 12:00

IV.2.3) Estimated date of dispatch of invitations to tender or to participate to selected candidates​

Date: 17/07/2026

IV.2.4) Languages in which tenders or requests to participate may be submitted​

EN

IV.2.6) Minimum time frame during which the tenderer must maintain the tender​

Tender must be valid until: 28/04/2028

https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV542816

There gave themselves generous 6 months to reduce the participation list to a short list, so would hope there are no delays