Quality of the Caledonian Sleeper

[simonm]

Travelled down from Aberdeen last weekend and very dissapointed with the Sleeper. Although we were on time the on board facililties were very poor - too hot in the cabin, broken fittings, and woefullly inadequate catering etc. Are Scotrail deliberately running the Sleeper into the ground? I understand on the Night Riviera (also by First) it's a different story and much better. The staff were good - don't get me wrong - it's just that they kept apologising for broken or poor offerings.

 

[Bon Accord]

Would agree with you there. I've used the Euston-Aberdeen sleeper about half a dozen times in the past few months, and am indeed using it tomorrow.
For some reason the thermostat in the cabins always seems to be left to hot - the trick is as soon as you arrive set it to cold, otherwise you'll bake all night. I think it's about time they were upgraded to at least the standards of the Night Riviera, powerpoints in cabins and wifi would be nice too.
About a fortnight ago I used the Edinburgh-London sleeper and it didn't even have a lounge car, just an out of use (though not locked) Mk 2 TSO.

 

[anthony263]

I must admit this is the 1st bad point i have heard about the sleeper

 

[junglejames]

Most cabins are in adequate condition. Ive never comes across any with broken fittings before. Admittedly its time for the sleeper coaches to get a refresh and to have sockets put into the cabins at the very least. A rethink on the catering would go down nicely as well, but is usually adequate enough.

 

[simonm]

I did turn the cabin temp to cold as soon as I entered but no luck. And yes, we had a 1st Buffet rather than a lounge car - it must have been doing the rounds!

 

[Keele13]

I did Euston-Inverness and Ft William-Euston a month back and would agree that the sleeper is getting a little tired. On the way up the aircon in two of the coaches was broken - we were lucky and snagged the last empty berth in one of the cooler carriages, it would have been miserable if we'd stayed where we'd been put (we were moved to the less hot of the two carriages, but when we saw the empty berth we asked if we could move and the staff obliged).

On the way back down one of the fridges in the lounge car was broken so while there was cold beer, there were no sandwiches, no desserts and some of the main meals couldn't be served because elements of them were kept in the fridge (e.g. no haggis because the veg is kept in the fridge). Not a problem for us, but it meant there was nothing of substance for seated passengers to eat (and we were told before boarding so could have run to Morrisons to buy food if needed).

The lack of plug sockets is a bit crazy - found one in the lounge car but it's not ideal.

The staff and service is great, and the cabins are fine for one night bar the plug socket thing, but you do seem to hear more and more about things going wrong (I know the broken aircon isn't a one off, for example).

 

[shedman]

The last time I travelled on the sleeper to Aviemore we had to use the Aberdeen lounge car because ours was a first class buffet and in total darkness. The lounge car didn't have any working plug sockets which was no good as I have an iPhone and had to let my friend who was picking me up from the station know when I was near. I used to use the sleeper regular and I have seen it sadly deteriorate.

 

[cj_1985]

i've personally used the caledonian sleeper quite a bit over the past 10 years...

and not one had i ever had a problem.. or a complaint.

the food was good... the beer, even more so
the beds were comfortable, and were at a good temperature.. both during the summer trips and the winter trips.


the only thing that could perhaps explain the problems mentioned.. are that there were canceled services due to issues with atleast one of the class 67... it could be that because of this certain vehicles have been put out to work when certain things could normally have been getting fixed.

its also worth noting that the Night Riviera is a much more basic operation that the ScotRail sleeper/s... since the FGW sleeper is one train each direction per night (Sun-fri)

where as the ScotRail sleeper is atleast 2 trains in each direction per night (sun-fri) with the trains being split to serve multiple destinations...

fair enough it has probably been atleast 5 years since the scotrail sleepers were last refurbished... (the FGW carraiges were refurbished much more recently) , so you cant really expect every vehicle to look like new for every night for as long as it operates... plus lets be honest... you do get a lot of tw*ts that intentionally cause damage to the interiors of the carraiges.

 

[anthony263]

Hopefully once some of the HST mk3 carriages are replaced by IEP perhaps some of them could be converted to be loco hauled and replace the mk2 carriages on the London - Scotland sleeper

 

[sprinterguy]

Hopefully once some of the HST mk3 carriages are replaced by IEP perhaps some of them could be converted to be loco hauled and replace the mk2 carriages on the London - Scotland sleeper

That would depend on whether it would be possible to squeeze an extra twelve metres of train, basically half a carriage length, into terminal platforms, etc (There are four mark 2s in each of the "Highland" and "Lowland" Sleeper formations, and each mark 3 is three metres long than a mark 2). I think the trains are already at pretty much their maximum possible length at Euston.

 

[cj_1985]

That would depend on whether it would be possible to squeeze an extra twelve metres of train, basically half a carriage length, into terminal platforms, etc (There are four mark 2s in each of the "Highland" and "Lowland" Sleeper formations, and each mark 3 is three metres long than a mark 2). I think the trains are already at pretty much their maximum possible length at Euston.

thats the problem aint it...
no doubt if it was as simple as swapping a mk.2 for a mk.3... scotrail would have done a deal when the mk.3s were available after being removed from ICWC use...

the only solution that could allow mk3s to be used in place of mk2s... is if the sleepers were run individually rather than doubled up... ie. the lowland sleeper being formed up of the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions...

but doing that would probably not be financially justifiable...

 

[First class]

Does Preston or Crewe have any platforms longer than Euston?

If so, couldn't you run the sleeper with say 1/2 carriages less at Euston, (to get the MK3s in) and join/split additional Mk3 coaches at Preston/Crewe?

Would give passengers joining later on a chance to get to sleep a bit sooner.

 

[rail-britain]

About a fortnight ago I used the Edinburgh-London sleeper and it didn't even have a lounge car, just an out of use (though not locked) Mk 2 TSO.

This is quite common, where a member of staff does not turn up and the train is fully booked
The Chief Steward then typically replaces the attendant working in First Class

However, I have also been on a sleeper where there was NO Lounge Car at all!
Having to sit in your berth all the way from Glasgow to Euston is not fun...

 

[amcluesent]

Yep, if you turned up at a B&B and found it equally 'down at heel' you'd not be happy. I'd say the Sleeper trades on it's novelty value but for regulars the lack facilities like power sockets must be vexing.

 

[EltonRoad]

Does it matter if the train is too long for the Euston platforms?

Obviously it does, but I'm wondering why. Does it foul up the approach to other platforms? Or is it a safety issue, with passengers potentially opening the door and falling onto the track. If the latter, why not manually lock it or something.

 

[rail-britain]

Does Preston or Crewe have any platforms longer than Euston?

If so, couldn't you run the sleeper with say 1/2 carriages less at Euston, (to get the MK3s in) and join/split additional Mk3 coaches at Preston/Crewe?

Would give passengers joining later on a chance to get to sleep a bit sooner.

Both Preston and Crewe can easily accomodate the sleepers, with a few coach lengths to spare
However, every attempt is made to reduce the number of joins / splits, hence why they are now only at Carstairs and Edinburgh
A more likely outcome would be increasing the number of sleepers to three (in each direction) :
Glasgow / Fort William
Edinburgh
Aberdeen / Inverness
Equally, the Edinburgh could then be increased to allow for busy periods plus carrying the Carlisle passengers (earlier departure, later arrival)
Finally, this would also increase the demand for locomotives between Scotland and Euston
It had previously been discussed that the Mark 2 coaches would be replaced with Mark 3 coaches, and each set would be reduced by one sleeper (ie 5 sleepers, plus two Mark 3 coaches)

 

[junglejames]

Does Preston or Crewe have any platforms longer than Euston?

If so, couldn't you run the sleeper with say 1/2 carriages less at Euston, (to get the MK3s in) and join/split additional Mk3 coaches at Preston/Crewe?

Would give passengers joining later on a chance to get to sleep a bit sooner.

Wouldnt be possible because it ends up splitting again at Edinburgh (well the Highland does).
You would basically be attaching say the FW portion on at Crewe. So anybody from London to FW would have to change berths at Crewe. Unless you want to do a massive reshuffle at Crewe. Splitting the train in 2 places, and inserting 1 extra coach into each section. Then splitting the train again at Edinburgh.

So not really possible.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does it matter if the train is too long for the Euston platforms?

Obviously it does, but I'm wondering why. Does it foul up the approach to other platforms? Or is it a safety issue, with passengers potentially opening the door and falling onto the track. If the latter, why not manually lock it or something.

I think it's because the locomotive would be beyond the starting signal at the end of the platform.

Incidentally, whenever I have been on the Sleeper the thermostat has usually been left in the middle position; the first thing I do is whack it all the way up. Quite comfortable.

 

[Flying Snail]

Does Preston or Crewe have any platforms longer than Euston?

If so, couldn't you run the sleeper with say 1/2 carriages less at Euston, (to get the MK3s in) and join/split additional Mk3 coaches at Preston/Crewe?

Would give passengers joining later on a chance to get to sleep a bit sooner.

That is how things used to work in many locations with portions of trains detached and attached at junction stations (not particularly with the sleeper) however the railway has moved on and even splitting/combining units is a rarity these days never mind the added complexity of shunting coaches.

There are lots of things that could be done if anyon wanted them to happen, simplest of all (operationally) would be to run them seperately. Edinburgh could run solo, Glasgow the same or Fort William could be attached to Glasgow with through seats. That would mean Aberdeen/Inverness had space left to add coaches or swap Mk2 for Mk3s.

None of that (or anything else) is going to happen though, there is no desperate need to replace the Mk2s or the sleepers for the time being, they could definitely do with a refurb though in the near future.

As for the faults mentioned above, the only one I have had issue with is the Air Con, it can be very weak and if the coaches have heated up it can take hours for the cabins to get down to a comfortable temp (for me anyway). I haven't noticed missing fittings but there always seems to be something in the cabins rattling these days, often the door locks or the bulkhead between the dor and bunks.

Regarding the use of the regular seated buffet instead of the loose seated lounge car I am all for it. I much prefer the proper seats and tables and it also has the advantage that more than 4 people can sit down to eat comfortably at the same time, the couches in the lounge cars are useles for eating anything more than a bag of crisps. I hope that if/when the lounges get refurbed they get more traditional railway seating.

 

[87031]

Ive always found the sleepers good when ive used them but i havent used them this year, the air con can be a bit noisy at times but i use earplugs which make a huge difference to a decent nights kip. Some refurb wouldnt go a miss though they do get some serious useage.

Just hope they keep them going, be interested to know how cost effective they are , the fares are going mad £149.00 for a cabin to yourself is steep.

 

[NightatLaira]

Does it matter if the train is too long for the Euston platforms?

Waterloo International *ducks*

But seriously, I do agree with most of what's previously said here:

I think the short-term rescue package should be something like this:

• The sleeper is primarily riding on its 'novelty value' at the moment - it can't carry on doing this forever if it's going to survive the future.
• All the Caley units need a serious refurb - I can't speak personally for the Riveiera, it's been at least a year since I've done it.
• Plug sockets everywhere, Wifi throughout (free for FC), electrics that work, better sinks - and that's the bear minimum. They could do this now, with relatively little capital outlay.

Now if we had oodles of £££££££ - this is what I'd do:

• I personally think they need to look at new stock. An order of about 140 'mark 5' coaches would be good.
• Possible ordering of a new fleet of Electrodiesels capable of 100mph in either mode for the Highland Sleepers. Use 92s for Lowland Sleepers (third rail use around London if terminating at Waterloo International and AC pickup for the WCML).
• First class to have properly partitioned berths/rooms (similar to how it is now) but with the addition of showers, TV / Entertainment system with complimentary films, live news, games, weather, etc. and intercom phones for 'room service'.
• Standard class similar to above but with airlines style pods (think BA Business Class) - no showers, no real room partitions, and TV/Entertainment thorugh earphones fed from an individual LCD screen display.
• Standard class fares need to be sorted out (lowered). There is clearly greater demand than supply can match at the moment - so the sensible longterm plan would to tap this market by boosting supply. The only way you do that is expand capacity by having separate trains for Glasgow, Edinburgh and possibly even Fort William in the Summer. Inverness always seem to be quiet in my experience, perhaps that could be combined with Aberdeen? Or maybe they should take the plunge and separate out all routes with no splitting. I don't know - Aberdeen's the one route I've never done.
• In the longterm, as stated before. I think it would be beneficial if all the sleepers (inc. Riviera) could use one dedicated 'sleeper station' with sleeper orientated facilities away from the hustle and bustle of normal commuter and intercity day travel. Yes, I'm talking about re-opening Waterloo International (and although I know there's a million reasons why this would be difficult), - I'd still like to see it done.
• Additional calls at Milton Keynes and Lockerbie. Possible re-routing of Highland Sleepers away from WCML at southern end to tap markets in the Thames Valley. Suggest routing from North to South at Stafford through to Bescot, then: Aston, Tyseley, Leamington Spa, and Reading with calls at Oxford and Reading.
• A proper first class lounge car, with higher quality food, more whiskies, more Scottish delicacies, late night bar snacks, open till at least 2am, and reopening for breakfast from 6am. Staff who don't fall asleep, service with a smile - less of the 'dinnerladies' attitude - (I know not all of the SR staff are like this, and that a lot are very helpful and professional). Perhaps some quiet jazz piano music in the background, a 'real looking fire', actual armchairs and soft mood lighting. Basically like a nice hotel bar.
• A similar but more toned down experience for standard and seated customers (a second class lounge car). If the capacity is to be boosted and we have 4 or 5 separate trains running from London for the Caledonian Sleeper there will be space for another lounge car.
• All the Scottish terminii to see improvements on the platforms/concourse for their sleeper customers. Similar measures at Watford, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Carstairs and Motherwell.

It'll never happen - but I can still dream.... :roll:

 

[sprinterguy]

Both Preston and Crewe can easily accomodate the sleepers, with a few coach lengths to spare
However, every attempt is made to reduce the number of joins / splits, hence why they are now only at Carstairs and Edinburgh
A more likely outcome would be increasing the number of sleepers to three (in each direction) :
Glasgow / Fort William
Edinburgh
Aberdeen / Inverness
Equally, the Edinburgh could then be increased to allow for busy periods plus carrying the Carlisle passengers (earlier departure, later arrival)
Finally, this would also increase the demand for locomotives between Scotland and Euston

That's pretty much what I would suggest as well. During the summer months at least, some extra capacity as would be offered by running three trains instead of two would be very welcome judging by how popular these trains seem to be judging by my own ticket searches.

I certainly wouldn't like to see the number of carriages reduced to ensure that if mark 3 seated coaches were introduced the existing arrangement could be retained. However, as has been pointed out by a couple of posters it is this second option which would be more likely to happen due to the additional costs in train paths, locomotives, loco crews and train staff (Though don't all the sleeper portions, barring the Fort William one, already have their own on-train staff from Euston anyway?) required to operate a third sleeper out of Euston.

 

[DarloRich]

TBH - i have used the sleeper quite a bit since moving down south. I often have business in Glasgow and it means i can get the most productivity out of 2 days, in that i dont loose a day in travel. I have never had a problem at all. Slept well, staff helpful and polite, berth comfortable. Yes it can be a bit noisy (it is a train and not a staionary hotel after all) but it is a good way to travel.

I didnt even know they had air/con. I thought it was just ventialation. The berths need a refresh. However i have found the lounge car very nice. They serve a good beer!

The key, i have found, to the best nights sleep is NOT to have a berth over the bogies!

 

[jon0844]

The idea of using airline first class 'pods' makes perfect sense. You could instantly increase the capacity of the sleepers to make them far more financially viable.

Every person boarding could be given a small bag (like most airlines give out) with ear plugs, throwaway toothbrush etc and the toilets could be vastly improved with more of them. I guess facilities at the terminal stations might need to be boosted too, given you could have a lot more passengers.

First class could continue to offer actual compartments with en-suite facilities added.

Sleepers make perfect sense, but they're not advertised very well - and no doubt because there's not the capacity. So TOCs have the choice; invest and make it a lot more successful, or run it into the ground and axe it. The latter is easier, obviously.

I hate stupid early morning wake-ups to fly somewhere, and going the night before with a hotel stay isn't much better as you probably check in really late and it messes up your body clock. Getting on a train where you can turn in straight away, and the cost is probably less than a hotel, seems very logical. Going forward, I'd expect sleepers to be introduced on services through the tunnel as you could then begin to travel to far flung parts of Europe without changing train, and not losing most of the day in travel.

But, I think I may be dreaming!

 

[MCR247]

IMO this would work best for a standard class, although you'd have to negotiate with Virgin by the looks of it! :P

Maybe if you let them run/sponser it...

 

[ess]

my experience of the caledonian sleeper was that it was clean at first glance but it you went digging (by accidentally dropping something down the back of the fittings) a good deep clean was due!

 

[jon0844]

IMO this would work best for a standard class, although you'd have to negotiate with Virgin by the looks of it! :P

That's what I had on Virgin to Tokyo and they were excellent, although admittedly I didn't sleep that well - but that's more down to being on a plane!

The ottoman is a clever idea as it means people can come sit with you for a chat, and you can stow your shoes inside it too. In fact, there were loads of clever storage spaces for things, and a nice big screen and limited Internet/SMS access.

Being 'Upper Class', a member of the cabin crew come and make your bed, so that's the one thing you might not get on a sleeper!

 

[MCR247]

Upper class is great

 

[jon0844]

Only done Virgin Upper Class once. Done a few other first class flights with other airlines that were fine, but not quite the same as the Virgin experience.

Doubt I'll ever go Virgin Upper Class again though! I didn't pay for my flight then, and I'd NEVER pay for Upper Class as I'd rather save a few grand and suffer for a few hours!

 

[MCR247]

I've done it twice (four if you count each way). It is great. 1 of them was in the sale, the other was free due a lets just say 'a bad experience on a previous flight' hock: