UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Snow1964]

I don't use a home charger, but I believe you can only charge one car at a time so would have to alternate even if the driveway had room for two cars.
Is that correct?

Yes, home chargers only have one cable.

In practice if only using 6 hours of cheap overnight electricity, then can add about 36kw/h (7.4kw x 6 hours), which would be good for about 130 miles (exact mileage varies by temperature and driving type)

Of course have option to top up further using daytime rates (usually about 4 times the price), or if you add a battery storage unit in your garage even more at cheaper rates.

There are not many that would commute more than 60 miles round trip everyday, so alternate night charging is unlikely to be a problem. Actually if you topped up car at weekend then could commute further as you gradually use some of the weekend stored electricity each day

 

[N1]

I don't use a home charger, but I believe you can only charge one car at a time so would have to alternate even if the driveway had room for two cars.
Is that correct?

For a 100A standard home supply, you are pretty much limited to one* 32A 7kW home charger. You could pay an extortionate amount of money for a three-phase domestic supply. DNOs don't like giving out supplies bigger than 100A for domestic.

*If you have gas heating and cooking, then you would almost certainly be fine with two 7kW chargers, but most installers wouldn't want to do it, as we are quite conservative in terms of diversify electrical loads in the UK.

It is interesting that domestic supplies in the UK are very large compared to other places in Europe. UK you get 100A for a new house, at nominal 230V (actually 240V), so get about 23kW. Smaller supplies are still 80A or 60A for older flats.

In Italy, a standard supply is 15A at nominal 230V (actually 220V), so max 3.5kW. You can pay to double that to 30A but this is normally for properties using A/C as cooling (and heating) source. Still not enough for a 7kW charger. EV adoption in Italy is unsurprisingly low.

 

[Noddy]

is interesting that domestic supplies in the UK are very large compared to other places in Europe. UK you get 100A for a new house, at nominal 230V (actually 240V), so get about 23kW. Smaller supplies are still 80A or 60A for older flats.

In Italy, a standard supply is 15A at nominal 230V (actually 220V), so max 3.5kW. You can pay to double that to 30A but this is normally for properties using A/C as cooling (and heating) source. Still not enough for a 7kW charger. EV adoption in Italy is unsurprisingly low.

Italy is very low but in a lot of Europe 3-phase is standard and has been for years so you get up to 22kW charging. Increasingly we are seeing it in the UK for new builds/installations as well. AIUI some DNOs are only allowing 3-phase now gas boilers and cooking is (effectively) banned from new builds and heat pumps and EV chargers are (effectively) required on installations.

 

[N1]

Italy is very low but in a lot of Europe 3-phase is standard and has been for years so you get up to 22kW charging. Increasingly we are seeing it in the UK for new builds/installations as well. AIUI some DNOs are only allowing 3-phase now gas boilers and cooking is (effectively) banned from new builds and heat pumps and EV chargers are (effectively) required on installations.

True on 3-phase for other European countries, although 22kW AC charging is of limited use as there are very few cars that come with a 22kW 3-phase onboard inverter. Would be slightly useful if the car had an onboard 11kW inverter, but even that is often an extra when buying a new EV.

I have seen 3-phase talked about a lot, but seen very few new build homes that actually have it in the UK. Retrofitting it is difficult to get from the DNO.

 

[Noddy]

True on 3-phase for other European countries, although 22kW AC charging is of limited use as there are very few cars that come with a 22kW 3-phase onboard inverter. Would be slightly useful if the car had an onboard 11kW inverter, but even that is often an extra when buying a new EV.

The vast majority of EVs do (at least) 11kW on 3-phase supply. Searching the EV database website I can only find 18 models currently available that only do 7.4kw (or less), but there are 287 available with 11kw charging and 103 with 22kw charging.

I have seen 3-phase talked about a lot, but seen very few new build homes that actually have it in the UK. Retrofitting it is difficult to get from the DNO.

I’m seeing it increasingly on new builds. Given they’re required to have a charger, electric cooking, and electric heating it’s not surprising.

 

[N1]

The vast majority of EVs do (at least) 11kW on 3-phase supply. Searching the EV database website I can only find 10 models currently available that only do 7.4kw (or less), there are over 400 with 11kW listed.

Definitely coming as standard a lot more, however a lot of the more budget end of EVs, 11kW still comes as an option, mostly on Stellantis models, and the cheaper Nissan and BYD models AFAIK. If it is an option from base model, then EV database etc. will still list it as 11kW.

 

[Noddy]

Definitely coming as standard a lot more, however a lot of the more budget end of EVs, 11kW still comes as an option, mostly on Stellantis models, and the cheaper Nissan and BYD models AFAIK. If it is an option from base model, then EV database etc. will still list it as 11kW.

The cheapest Nissan model is the Micra which has 11kW across all models (exactly the same as its sister Renault 4 and 5 models). The cheapest BYD model is the Dolphin Surf which also has 11kW across all models (just google the reviews).

It’s more difficult to identify with Stellantis cars but as far as I can tell they changed the standard fitted on board charger from two to three 16A modules (going from 7.4 to 11kw) in 2024.

 

[N1]

The cheapest Nissan model is the Micra which has 11kW across all models (exactly the same as its sister Renault 4 and 5 models). The cheapest BYD model is the Dolphin Surf which also has 11kW across all models (just google the reviews).

It’s more difficult to identify with Stellantis cars but as far as I can tell they changed the standard fitted on board charger from two to three 16A modules (going from 7.4 to 11kw) in 2024.

Thanks, yes I seem to be behind the times! Good that most are fitting 11kW as standard now.

Stellantis I can't seem to find out now if they have it as standard. I know for some of their models, heat pump still isn't standard either. Have to watch out for these things now they are moving into second hand market more.

 

[The Ham]

I don't use a home charger, but I believe you can only charge one car at a time so would have to alternate even if the driveway had room for two cars.
Is that correct?

The point I was making was that unless you are someone who does a fairly high mileage you'd only need one charger for a two car household (even with a low-ish range car).

Having said that, whist you can only charge one car at a time, it's possible to have two chargers and schedule each car to be charged at different times.

Even if you had a 13amp plug as a second charge point, you'd be able to charge (at 8 miles per hour) you could charge 48 miles in the 6 hour cheaper rate period.

As that's more than the 45 mile daily round trip given in my post, that's enough to cover an extra day's travel if there was a need for the other car to need to charged out sequence.

 

[Noddy]

Thanks, yes I seem to be behind the times! Good that most are fitting 11kW as standard now.

Stellantis I can't seem to find out now if they have it as standard. I know for some of their models, heat pump still isn't standard either. Have to watch out for these things now they are moving into second hand market more.

This is an extract from the electric corsa brochure (I can’t speak for other Stellantis brands but I imagine it’s the same as this makes manufacturing cheaper):

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/content/dam/vauxhall/Home/PDFs/Cars/new-corsa/price-guides/Corsa_MY25_PSG_6_November_2024_Library.pdf

The image appears to show that 11kW was standard from at least November 2024.

 

[Bald Rick]

How can you say it's a normal price? That's completely ridiculous, there is a war which has caused the price of oil to spike! That's totally normal is it?

I haven‘t said it’s normal.

I am confused by what youre trying to say, though. You said earlier in #6693 that the fuel price was at a historic high.

As I (and others) have pointed out, it isn’t.

These Earnings increase:
a) do these stats also include "non-working" population (i.e. those whose income is wholly and solely Universal Credit)?
b) the worked-earnings must reflect a person changing roles / organisations / sectors. Certainly in my six employers, the typical annual "in-role" wage-growth was 2% to 2.5%

a) no, it is earnings, ie money earned through work.

b) it is all earnings through work. Individuals who get promoted will see wage growth higher than the average quoted in the ONS figures. But on the assumption that the number of higher graded jobs is broadly constant over time, then the average wage increase will represent the average increase for someone staying in the same role. This is a statistic that measures pay from the perspective of the roles, not from the perspective of the individuals doing them. Of course there will be some of those who stay in the same role that don’t get that average increase, but some will get above average too.

 

[johncrossley]

The government is dumb for keeping petrol at such a low level, given that the media portrays it as expensive anyway. This means there's no point keeping petrol so cheap. It should be at least £2 per litre by now, given that the £1 per litre mark was passed more than 20 years ago, so in real terms it is much cheaper than it was 20 years ago. They might as well make it really expensive as it will make no difference politically as the media will put the boot in either way. It would help government finances and encourage EV use without the need for incentives.

 

[jon0844]

The government is dumb for keeping petrol at such a low level, given that the media portrays it as expensive anyway. This means there's no point keeping petrol so cheap. It should be at least £2 per litre by now, given that the £1 per litre mark was passed more than 20 years ago, so in real terms it is much cheaper than it was 20 years ago. They might as well make it really expensive as it will make no difference politically as the media will put the boot in either way. It would help government finances and encourage EV use without the need for incentives.

I bought a flat in London on a modest wage in the mid 90s, with next to no deposit required. I was single at the time. I recall fuel was around 58-59p a litre (unleaded, which obviously isn't the same as today's unleaded with regards to octane level).

I am not sure how many people could do that today, with even two people likely struggling unless they are high-earners and can afford to put money away for many years to get a deposit.

It isn't enough to just compare fuel prices with inflation, or wages with inflation, as people are quite likely poorer (unless they inherit property or money) than they were at that time.. and so fuel is still a major cost, even if it might technically be considered cheaper than the mid 1990s.

I think it highly likely the changes in September will not go ahead, but can't see the Government deciding to cut duty either. And the Reform petrol protest had just two people turn up apparently, so outside of the social media bubble that has mostly US-bots telling us that the high cost is down to Labour, most people are indeed accepting the price rise. They're not happy, obviously, but the country hasn't spiralled into civil war. Yet.

 

[johncrossley]

I bought a flat in London on a modest wage in the mid 90s, with next to no deposit required. I was single at the time. I recall fuel was around 58-59p a litre (unleaded, which obviously isn't the same as today's unleaded with regards to octane level).

I am not sure how many people could do that today, with even two people likely struggling unless they are high-earners and can afford to put money away for many years to get a deposit.

It isn't enough to just compare fuel prices with inflation, or wages with inflation, as people are quite likely poorer (unless they inherit property or money) than they were at that time.. and so fuel is still a major cost, even if it might technically be considered cheaper than the mid 1990s.

I think it highly likely the changes in September will not go ahead, but can't see the Government deciding to cut duty either. And the Reform petrol protest had just two people turn up apparently, so outside of the social media bubble that has mostly US-bots telling us that the high cost is down to Labour, most people are indeed accepting the price rise. They're not happy, obviously, but the country hasn't spiralled into civil war. Yet.

People who really need help with the cost of living can't even afford a car. Some people are still buying (or at least leasing) new cars and lot of people are going to expensive coffee shops which didn't even exist in the 90s. Unemployment is nowhere near as bad as the 80s, especially up north. If people were really poor, the housing market would have collapsed by now because people would no longer be able to afford repayments. Technology has meant that lots of things are cheaper now than in the 90s. For example, a very nice flat screen TV which would seem like science fiction 30 years ago can be had for a few hours pay.

 

[jon0844]

People who really need help with the cost of living can't even afford a car. Some people are still buying (or at least leasing) new cars and lot of people are going to expensive coffee shops which didn't even exist in the 90s. Unemployment is nowhere near as bad as the 80s, especially up north. If people were really poor, the housing market would have collapsed by now because people would no longer be able to afford repayments. Technology has meant that lots of things are cheaper now than in the 90s. For example, a very nice flat screen TV which would seem like science fiction 30 years ago can be had for a few hours pay.

There were coffee shops in the 1990s. I don't think people buying coffee (or avocado toast, or Netflix subs) are the reason people can't get on the property ladder.

And, yes, a flat screen TV is super cheap now and you can get huge panels for the money - but people could afford TVs then too. They were just smaller, and a lot heavier!

I would say a lot more people had disposable income, which is why people were able to go and spend their money going out to pubs, clubs (until the small hours), restaurants, cinemas etc. Now they don't, so those sectors are struggling (most clubs are probably long gone now and the ones that remain are for people with large amounts of money that rent tables and seating areas and order bottles of vodka with sparklers).

As for people financing cars they can't afford.. well, I am pretty sure that's always been the case and always will be. Same reason people pay £60-100 a month for a smartphone when they could almost certainly get by with a cheaper model for a lot less.

People do still want nice things and sometimes that means paying more than you need to. Same for clothing and more.

 

[The Ham]

As for people financing cars they can't afford.. well, I am pretty sure that's always been the case and always will be. Same reason people pay £60-100 a month for a smartphone when they could almost certainly get by with a cheaper model for a lot less.

For example rather than getting the latest phone, getting a refurbished one from 2 years ago - which can work out cheaper than buying a mid-budget phone due to the long software upgrades some are being offered with (up to 7 years, so 5 more years even when the phone is 2 years old), rather than maybe one.

At 2 years old even phones like the Samsung Galaxy s24 can be found for sub £350 and if kept for 6 years is around £5 a month (which is similar when compared to a £180 mid-budget phone which is kept for 3 years).

At 6 years it's only just outside of the software support (unlike the mid-budget ones which can be almost as soon as you use it).

Although talking of phones, saw a clip where a guy was saying that in the late 80's no one thought mobile phones would be a thing, and it's only once it's seen as normal (especially if people they know have the new thing) when takeup grows rapidly.

He was saying, whilst he gave lots of "reasons" for going EV a few years ago, he went in to say if he's being honest the only reason was because his brother had one.

The main reason we went for EV (other than having a bad, read costly, experience with an ICE) was my parents and Brother in Law both have them and wouldn't go back.

 

[RuddA]

And, yes, a flat screen TV is super cheap now and you can get huge panels for the money - but people could afford TVs then too. They were just smaller, and a lot heavier!

My parents always rented our TVs when I was young.
They never had a car either until I was 10, and that was living in village with one bus per week.

He was saying, whilst he gave lots of "reasons" for going EV a few years ago, he went in to say if he's being honest the only reason was because his brother had one.

The main reason we went for EV (other than having a bad, read costly, experience with an ICE) was my parents and Brother in Law both have them and wouldn't go back.

One of the reasons for me was when two colleagues bought EVs and kept saying how nice they are to drive and their ability to use the free charger installed at work.

 

[Ediswan]

I don't use a home charger, but I believe you can only charge one car at a time so would have to alternate even if the driveway had room for two cars.
Is that correct?

I know somebody who has two 32A chargers on a standard 100A supply. They have a device which monitors the total load and reduces the car charging rate if the domestic demand is high.

 

[Mawkie]

New Scientist's recent article. Why your opinion of used electric vehicles is probably wrong

In a famous apocryphal story, Henry Ford insisted that it was economically wasteful for any car component to routinely outlast the car itself. There are even stories of him sending employees to car junkyards to identify troublingly durable components, so he could ensure they were built from cheaper materials in the future.

Turn this philosophy towards electric vehicles, and there is already a common perception that the batteries age poorly, so you are better off buying new. This contributes to the faster depreciation in value seen for EVs compared with petrol or diesel vehicles. Batteries are 99 per cent cheaper to build than they were 30 years ago, but they still account for about a third of the price of a new EV.

So it is welcome news, then, that as of this month, the average new EV on sale in the UK is cheaper than the average new petrol car. But new isn’t everything. In a twist that might displease Henry Ford, a recent report found EV batteries treated well should outlast the cars themselves, suggesting used EVs are a much better deal than they would first seem.

These aren’t the only reasons why EVs, both new and old, are becoming more commercially attractive. Most EVs are parked and plugged in for nearly 23 hours each day. Plans are now in place to use the batteries in those cars to temporarily store excess electricity sloshing around the power grid, with grid operators then paying EV owners when they need it back. This idea isn’t new, but, as we report here, a trial scheme in the US is now giving us an idea of how profitable it could be. The average EV driver could earn several thousand pounds each year.

It is arguably these sorts of economic calculations, rather than the notion of tackling climate change, that will do the most to accelerate the green transition. The Iran war fuel crisis, meanwhile, may also be encouraging EV uptake by making fuel-burning cars more costly to run.

Though the EV industry has had to deal with a slowdown in sales growth recently, it’s just possible that the road ahead will be a little clearer.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If people were really poor, the housing market would have collapsed by now because people would no longer be able to afford repayments.

People fairly obviously will cut back on everything else before their housing situation is impacted. So that is probably why hospitality is struggling but we aren't seeing an increase in arrears / repossessions yet.

 

[johncrossley]

People fairly obviously will cut back on everything else before their housing situation is impacted. So that is probably why hospitality is struggling but we aren't seeing an increase in arrears / repossessions yet.

The point is, we have seen huge house price falls in the past. For example, the late 1980s and 2008 onwards. We don't even have that now, yet the current situation is branded as catastrophic by much of the media.

If you go to certain towns, you can still see thriving restaurant cultures.

 

[notverydeep]

The 'Real', that is inflation adjusted average house price fell significantly (by 14.2%) across the UK between the recent high point in early 2022 and mid 2024 (at which point the data series ends). The data is adjusted by the Retail Prices Index (RPI) - see this link: https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/indices-nationwide-national-inflation/. The average house price is 22.8% down in inflation adjusted terms since the highest point in the data series in late 2007, just before the 2008 Banking Crisis. The data table is quoted below (sorry, I had hoped to make the quoted columns take less space, but to no avail). A different site (https://rationanalytics.com/uk/house-prices-inflation-adjusted, which gives Nationwide as the source of data - extending to late 2025) has a graph - below the table:

Date	House Price	'Real' House Price
2007 Q1	£175,554​	£333,850​
2007 Q2	£181,810​	£340,217​
2007 Q3	£184,131​	£343,228​
2007 Q4	£183,959​	£338,495​
2008 Q1	£179,363​	£328,006​
2008 Q2	£174,514​	£312,913​
2008 Q3	£165,188​	£293,330​
2008 Q4	£156,828​	£280,939​
2009 Q1	£149,709​	£274,037​
2009 Q2	£154,066​	£279,757​
2009 Q3	£160,159​	£288,378​
2009 Q4	£162,116​	£288,538​
2010 Q1	£162,887​	£286,737​
2010 Q2	£168,719​	£291,423​
2010 Q3	£167,354​	£287,777​
2010 Q4	£162,971​	£277,155​
2011 Q1	£162,379​	£271,483​
2011 Q2	£166,764​	£274,066​
2011 Q3	£166,597​	£272,285​
2011 Q4	£164,785​	£266,614​
2012 Q1	£162,722​	£262,178​
2012 Q2	£164,955​	£262,922​
2012 Q3	£163,910​	£260,290​
2012 Q4	£162,924​	£255,674​
2013 Q1	£163,056​	£254,433​
2013 Q2	£167,294​	£258,642​
2013 Q3	£170,918​	£262,980​
2013 Q4	£174,444​	£266,706​
2014 Q1	£178,124​	£270,831​
2014 Q2	£186,544​	£281,306​
2014 Q3	£188,810​	£283,725​
2014 Q4	£189,002​	£283,461​
2015 Q1	£188,566​	£283,910​
2015 Q2	£194,258​	£290,105​
2015 Q3	£195,733​	£291,405​
2015 Q4	£197,044​	£292,568​
2016 Q1	£198,564​	£294,825​
2016 Q2	£204,238​	£300,705​
2016 Q3	£206,346​	£301,509​
2016 Q4	£205,937​	£299,100​
2017 Q1	£206,665​	£298,028​
2017 Q2	£209,971​	£298,557​
2017 Q3	£211,672​	£298,011​
2017 Q4	£211,433​	£295,305​
2018 Q1	£211,792​	£294,635​
2018 Q2	£214,578​	£295,213​
2018 Q3	£216,103​	£294,476​
2018 Q4	£214,178​	£290,215​
2019 Q1	£212,694​	£288,710​
2019 Q2	£215,910​	£288,410​
2019 Q3	£216,805​	£287,913​
2019 Q4	£215,925​	£286,350​
2020 Q1	£217,911​	£288,389​
2020 Q2	£220,133​	£290,533​
2020 Q3	£224,337​	£294,671​
2020 Q4	£229,819​	£301,359​
2021 Q1	£231,644​	£302,315​
2021 Q2	£242,709​	£309,945​
2021 Q3	£247,535​	£311,066​
2021 Q4	£253,113​	£310,495​
2022 Q1	£260,771​	£314,100​
2022 Q2	£270,452​	£309,627​
2022 Q3	£273,135​	£305,364​
2022 Q4	£265,195​	£285,730​
2023 Q1	£258,115​	£273,747​
2023 Q2	£261,995​	£269,855​
2023 Q3	£260,181​	£266,848​
2023 Q4	£259,157​	£264,672​
2024 Q1	£260,791​	£264,451​
2024 Q2	£265,012​	£265,012​

 

[The Ham]

The 'Real', that is inflation adjusted average house price fell significantly (by 14.2%) across the UK between the recent high point in early 2022 and mid 2024 (at which point the data series ends). The data is adjusted by the Retail Prices Index (RPI) - see this link: https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/indices-nationwide-national-inflation/. The average house price is 22.8% down in inflation adjusted terms since the highest point in the data series in late 2007, just before the 2008 Banking Crisis. The data table is quoted below (sorry, I had hoped to make the quoted columns take less space, but to no avail). A different site (https://rationanalytics.com/uk/house-prices-inflation-adjusted, which gives Nationwide as the source of data - extending to late 2025) has a graph - below the table:


View attachment 203240

Arguably, as RPI includes mortgage payments (which increased significantly around late 2021) and what people are able to buy a house for is based on what they can afford (which is based a lot on the interest payments of the mortgages they are applying for), then there's potentially an element of double counting in those adjustments.

It's why typically house price inflation is calculated using a different inflation rate.

 

[jon0844]

So, BP has announced profits in the first quarter of US$3.2bn (last year Q1 was US$1.38bn). That was January to March, and of course the conflict started at the end of February so one must wonder how good the Q2 results are going to be!

The oil industry is making serious profits thanks to Trump, and I do have to bite my lip when people defend the petrol stations and say they're only making 1 or 2p profit per litre. People forget that BP the petrol station is not BP the oil company, but the profit from the former gets added to the latter!

Meanwhile I've fixed my electricity rates for the next year, paying 1p per kWh more than I did before and ensuring that I will be paying £2-3 to charge the car no matter what happens.

Source: BBC News

 

[notverydeep]

Arguably, as RPI includes mortgage payments (which increased significantly around late 2021) and what people are able to buy a house for is based on what they can afford (which is based a lot on the interest payments of the mortgages they are applying for), then there's potentially an element of double counting in those adjustments.

It's why typically house price inflation is calculated using a different inflation rate.

The ONS has a data series from 2002 to 2025 showing the relationship between incomes (across England, regions and London Boroughs) and house prices over time here: https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/ratio-of-house-prices-to-earnings-borough-2z04n/. This is perhaps a more relevant comparison for most of us and I have created a graph of this with lines for England and London. This shows that the multiplier has fallen more (by 16.5%) in London, than the rest of the country (albeit from a very high level in 2021). The multiple has declined over the same period for England as a whole, but to a smaller degree (8.3%) and with a small uptick in 2025...

 

[Cowley]

I think we’re slightly in danger of drifting off topic from electric vehicles a little here…

 

[Mawkie]

Volkswagen announces the new Polo and id Polo - apparently the ICE version and EV version will be the same price.

So a nice small car, with decent range and from a well known manufacturer.

One thing that intrigued me was:

Charging has never been this simple and affordable. With the market launch of the new ID. Polo, Volkswagen is introducing a new comprehensive charging and energy package. At its core is a new city tariff, developed by the Volkswagen Group’s subsidiary Elli, that makes public charging as affordable as charging at home.

Could this be 'gamechanger' that people with no off street parking are waiting for?

 

[TheSmiths82]

I like the look of that new Polo, I hope they will be a cheaper Skoda version. I also hope it has proper heating switches. I have read a lot of conflicting information though and from what I can tell the EV will be more expensive than the petrol version but I am not sure who to believe. I've had my Fabia for 9 years now but I don't want to spend a fortune on a car I only use to get to work and back and I am a bit put off with long potential long term issues with a Chinese EV.

 

[Mawkie]

I like the look of that new Polo, I hope they will be a cheaper Skoda version. I also hope it has proper heating switches.

You're in luck.

(Picture shows an interior shot of the new Polo and its heating and ventilation switches.)

 

[Bald Rick]

I like the look of that new Polo, I hope they will be a cheaper Skoda version.

The Cupra version (Raval) will be availalbale from under £24k for the base model, orders taken from September.

Skoda’s version, initially, is a pumped up mini-SUV, the EPIQ. Quite butch. Goes on sale ‘end 2026’.

Exoect them all to be about the same price.