Are bus enthusiasts more interested in vehicles than services and ticketing?

[TUC]

It is striking that over on the rail parts of the forum, whilst there are of course threads about rolling stock, a large number of discussions are about services and tickets. On the Buses and Coaches section, threads tend to be far more dominated by discussions on changes in vehicles locally, with even discussions bout particular operators having relatively few discussions about changes in services or about ticketing issues. Why is that? Surely such issues are just as likely to arise in both sectors?

 

[PeterC]

I have noticed that too. My own interest is in services rather than vehicles but I feel as if I am in a tiny minority

 

[stevieinselby]

Agreed that services, policies and all that are of far more interest than a post that notes that First have painted a particular individual bus into Ultraviolet or Stagecoach has transferred one specific vehicle from one depot to another...

 

[WiltsBus]

I think the interest in services is common with those who actually use/rely on bus services for work as I used to before I owned a car. I was particularly interested in non-concentric routes that allowed me to travel direct from A-B by bus instead of A - Town Centre - B, usually requiring a change of bus. These services, in my experience were not often fruitful, especially if they connected out-of-town shopping centres with ample parking.

 

[JKP]

I personally am more interested in routes and services than vehicles. The vehicles locally to me have been standard over the past 10 years and are a mixture of Versa, e200mmc with occasional MetroCity and e300. The Council has introduced some Mercedes Sprinters recently on less frequent routes. There seems to be little variety of make when I visit nearby cities.

 

[overthewater]

Unfortunley I think your right, Don't get me wrong I still take note of fleet movements and new stock but one E400 just the same as the next to me. Most people don't seem to get about Service change, timetables, publication aka leaflets, the changing demographics and locations of routes, tickets.

Over the last 20 years its go so boring the vehicle changes, the amount of liveries have drastically reduced.

 

[Statto]

I'm more interested in services, & going on interesting routes (sometimes not so interesting routes), unusual allocations like a decker on a mostly single deck route, than when new livery has been painted on or where has a vehicle gone.

One of the other enthusiasts forum i'm on is filled with garbage like, were as Arriva NW 46XX gone, or the latest vehicle transfer, rather than anything useful like service/ticket changes, although there have not been many service changes in my area recently.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Personally I'm more interested in the services element. In particular I'm interested in the following:

1) Express bus routes connecting cities / towns.
2) Combining multiple express routes to create long journeys and seeing how they compare to other modes of transport.
3) Quality and comfort of the buses - don't care what type of bus it is or what engine it has - but how well turned out is it, is it grubby, does it have creature comforts like PIS and USB/Power/Wifi.
4) Unique routes - like the Harrogate 36, skylink, X43, excel etc. etc.
5) The seats.... i spend way too much time considering what the seats are like.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Personally I'm more interested in the vehicles.
I take the point about individual vehicle transfers from one depot to another, although in the case of my local operator and depot (Stagecoach East Midlands Grimsby) I do find these interesting and useful, because I try to get a photo of each vehicle that operates from the depot. So whilst transfers involving other operators or depots might not flick my switch I'm mindful that my equivalent in Skegness, Inverness or Totnes might find the information useful.

For me, and possibly others, services are less interesting because, depending which area you're looking at, they either change so frequently it's hard to keep track or seldom change at all. Leeds (where I used to live) is in the first category; it was hard to keep track of the bus passing the end of my street, with multiple changes to timetables and/or routes per year. In contrast many of the routes in Grimsby can trace their origins back to the 1960s and 70s.
As I get older I'm also finding that I only enjoy travelling on buses (and indeed trains) if the journey has a purpose; I don't get the same kick out of travelling for the sake of it as I did when I was younger, therefore the routes are largely irrelevant to me unless they go somewhere I want to go.

As for tickets the mind-blowing complexity of the rail network is generally not replicated in the bus industry. I do keep hold of tickets if I travel with an operator in a different area... indeed I was disappointed recently to be told just to tap onto an Arriva Midlands bus and not to get a ticket... but I wouldn't say they're a massive part of my interest.

 

[overthewater]

5) The seats.... i spend way too much time considering what the seats are like.

I live for the day for the seats from the T-types to return. The padding are so comfy.

 

[BuhSnarf]

I live for the day for the seats from the T-types to return. The padding are so comfy.

Think that's well before my time. My favourites are the ex-Stagecoach Gold seats and the old leather ones on the 36.

 

[JKP]

I live for the day for the seats from the T-types to return. The padding are so comfy.

Agreed. DP Y types too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don’t think the discussion about ticketing is completely absent in this part of the forum, but there’s certainly neither the complexity nor the scope for finding value in the same way that there is on the railway. In most areas your choices are singles, an operator-specific ticket, or sometimes a multi-operator ticket. Or ENCTS.

 

[aron2smith]

It certainly felt that way from the interactions I had on here last year. I just want the buses to go where I want and need to go and to make journeys easier plus fill in gaps left by the railway. This includes at times and on days when travel is in less demand. In London and most cities and big towns, travel by bus at quieter times is reasonably possible. In county areas and parts of the country where there are no dominant towns, not so much. It seems really hit and miss.

The cuts to services in the past 10 to 15 years means there's gaps in the wider network everywhere, some of which are completely illogical. Seems especially bad and awkward in the areas immediately around London. Getting different areas to work together to restore lost links is really important to me. Slowly things seem to be improving there, but still a lot of cuts left. Not being able to travel when I want and where I want to is what bothers me.

I think where I live as well, as railways are all north to south, I'm very interested in the east to west bus routes and how things join up and connect. Especially where limited stop routes exist like 723/ 724/ 725 and Superloop.

As long as the vehicles are reasonably new but more importantly well looked after and clean, that's what matters to me. I noticed Sullivans seem to throw any old thing on the road for the 84 at times, in winter, the windows are so dirty you can't see outside! I do notice the variety of buses (and trains) but not something I'm massively concerned about. I don't really understand the people who are really really into it. I do like the look of the BYD buses though and how boxy they look. I appreciate liveries that show the history and identity of an area or bus route though. Just glad we use so many double deckers, which always make for interesting views. Bonus in a rural area, where double deckers are not really expected.

Seeing the old buses at things like Amersham and District running days is cool but makes me wish the routes were as comprehensive today as the time they are recreating.

Ticketing - even with a Disabled Bus Pass, I find it interesting. I really like the idea of zonal and town ticketing that Hertfordshire has done with Intalink Connect and how they work on everything regardless of company (weird how Arriva only tickets are more expensive!). What would be great is if Herts and other areas automate the process, so it's tap and go and be capped without a passenger having to know about the specific ticket. As ENCTS only covers England currently, Edinburgh is the one of the only places in the UK outside of England, where I'm happy to pay for the bus as fares are reasonable value, consistent, simple and transparent. Something I want from train ticketing.

I also like the distance based fare system for buses in Wales. The latter could be a good replacement to the £3 fare cap in more rural areas. I also think the Leap Card hopper fare covering buses, trams and trains in Dublin is amazing and would love to see that in the UK. The potential of 'Mini-Switzerland' in the Hope Valley could also be game changing if things can be integrated properly.

Also maybe I'm a rare breed, I'm not a train or bus enthusiast exclusively for them, I'm a travel enthusiast first, so naturally an interest in what journeys are possible by bus and train comes from that. Quite happy to sit on a bus and see somewhere new that the train doesn't let me see and go for a wander. Maybe not Travelling Turtle or Lejog style journeys but at a more regional level for sure. Really enjoyed going from Cromer to Kings Lynn by bus along the coast. Same with last night going from Cheshunt to Harrow by bus and then tube to Uxbridge. Naturally going to Whitby on an All Line Rover included using the 840 to go to Malton rail station afterwards for the wonderful scenery.

So technical things, I don't care but what can be seen from a bus and where they go and the possibilities is what I like.

 

[RJ]

Part of my personality is finding what I need for the best value. The knowledge I acquired of the railway ticketing system was purely done to find legitimate ways of saving money. Bus ticketing is a lot more simple and fragmented so there isn’t really much to look into there, plus I find information on the price of a single ticket isn’t always readily available online.

My interest in bus services is also financially motivated - for a few years I worked a bus services planner for a nameless city with 650+ routes - it was knowledge I could monetise. Presently my interest in bus services is finding gaps in the market and identifying those which could be profitable to operate.

As for vehicles, a lot of the interest has gone with an annual maintenance bill of well into 6 figures to keep my small fleet going, but the vehicles I designate as preserved I usually buy because I like the way they sound.

 

[TUC]

It's not just about discussions on ticketing vs vehicles. I get the feeling that, if a new operator took over services in a particular area, there would be far more discussion on vehicles and livery than whether service frequencies are comparable or whether the new operator is reliable.

 

[JGurney]

It is striking that over on the rail parts of the forum, whilst there are of course threads about rolling stock, a large number of discussions are about services and tickets. On the Buses and Coaches section, threads tend to be far more dominated by discussions on changes in vehicles locally,

I have noticed the same, not just in this forum. E.g. in pre-Internet days I found railway magazines much more interesting than bus magazines to read because they often did contain material related to travelling and networks, while bus magazines seemed to be mainly about the physical machines.

I suspect there are several factors involved. One is that people tend to join discussions of topics they know about, and a vehicle type is basically the same all around the country so there is more scope for more people to take an interest. Attempting to discuss a local service change would lead to fewer responses as few non-locals would know much about most bus routes. Hence on a national forum bus discussions may be more about the vehicles that the services. Linked to that the railways are much more of a unified national network than the buses. Interest in and use of bus services tends to be more localised. For example, if I were to plot my own rail travels on a map it would cover much of the country, while if I mapped bus journeys I would a get a large cluster of lines in the area stretching from Cornwall to Kent and Essex, another around the North-East, smaller clusters around north Norfolk, the Lake District and Lancashire, and some scattered isolated lines plotted elsewhere (e.g. Shrewsbury to Bridgnorth, Leuchars to Crail, Portstewart to Portballintrae and Lerwick to Scalloway).

 

[BULLSAREMAGIC]

As an enthusiast of over 60 years and a driver for over 45 I find it difficult to seperate an interest in vehicles from the services they operate as I feel they are inter dependent, with the service largely dictating the vehicles used. Timetables and frequencies can also be an influence in matching capacity to demand. If they vehicle is not up to task the service suffers. If the frequency is inadequate the attractiveness to the passenger is limited. The skill if thats the right word for the operator is to get it right and in doing so provide us enthusiasts with much to discuss,enjoy, complain about, admire or enjoy.

 

[Flange Squeal]

For me it was the regular changing of timetables and the evolution of networks over time through operator changes and/or route revisions that got me interested in buses, and they remain my core interest. There always seems to be something happening! My interest in vehicles is primarily thinking back to what used to run routes in my childhood and driving various preserved vehicles owned by friends at rallies, rather than following movements/changes in current fleets.

 

[tbtc]

I'm another who's much more interested in services (and timetables/ maps etc) than the vehicles that run them

I don't generally pay attention to the fleet number of the bus I'm on, I don't memorise fleets (beyond remembering that, generally, a 30*** will be a double decker or whatever)

I agree that we seem significantly in the minority, I regularly check the "local" threads in the Bus section here but 99% of the time it's fleet moments/ repaints/ unusual workings that are getting discussed

Obviously service changes generally only happen every few months, whereas there's always something being repainted/ moved between depots, but it does give the impression that a lot of enthusiasts are much more interested in the vehicles and not so much about the services that they run

Glad to know I'm not the only one though

 

[mattb7tl]

My interest comes from city planning, so services are a huge interest for myself. I think the lack of discussion reflects something deeper, outside the capital, buses simply are not a serious mode of transport in any meaningful competitive sense.

They exist for people who cannot or will not drive, or the occasional motorist who takes a bus once a month to feel virtuous. No matter the density, the deprivation levels, or the extent of bus priority you throw at a corridor, outside the capital, the service will not be usable to most people due to how private bus companies interpret demand. Which as a result, makes our bus networks a gimmick, and not a serious transport option.

This is probably why enthusiasts spend time looking at rolling stock as is tangible, observable, and unaffected by whether the network actually functions. It's a hobby response to a hobby-tier product.

 

[JohnofWessex]

Unlike railways or even tramways bus routes are I suggest rather ephemeral running as they do on the road rather than their own dedicated track.

While you might get a wonderful book on the Little Snoring branch or similar I cant imagine the 83 or the 15 getting the same treatment

 

[Simon75]

I miss buses with roller blinds. Even in London now now going over to 'e ink', which looks good, isnt as good to the eye in my opinion to roller blind.

 

[Resuwen]

100% about the vehicles

 

[asb]

There's a reason there are two distinct enthusiast organisations:
The Omnibus Society, for service changes
The PSV Circle, for vehicle news

The OS dabbles a little in the vehicle side, which is more than enough to sate any curiosity I personally have on that subject.

If you are interested in services then do please think about joining the OS, the membership fee is very reasonable, especially if you look at the bulletins online.

 

[stevieinselby]

Agreed that services, policies and all that are of far more interest than a post that notes that First have painted a particular individual bus into Ultraviolet or Stagecoach has transferred one specific vehicle from one depot to another...

Perhaps worth clarifying that I am interested in vehicles in general terms, which buses are being used where, which buses are most suitable for different services, that sort of thing – I'm just not at all bothered about the minutiae of particular vehicles and their locations or paint jobs.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When I was a kid, I was interested in the specific vehicles at my dad's depot. However, I've never been one to worry about vehicle types, "bashing" vehicles or being sat jotting numbers. It leaves me cold but each to their own. I remember one chap travelling 150 miles to travel on a particular vehicle, only to find it was VOR in the central works!!

Instead, my interest was initially about why and how operations were constructed and developed. Why did vehicles interwork, how drivers duties were constructed, why services had the level of provision that they have, and then developing an embryonic understanding of finances. Asking why did my dad's depot seldom get new vehicles was the first step on understanding transport economics, for instance. Why wasn't every bus a decker? Which stops generated custom, why and when? That fed into a wish to understand the mechanics of bus operation (rather than the buses themselves), leading directly to doing a relevant degree. After that, life took me into another realm (still transport related) but I have friends in various bus companies who are there "at the sharp end". The stories they can tell about the corporate world, or dealings with local authorities/PTEs It's why I sometimes take issue with some comments

For me, I do like the freedom of seeing the world from a bus seat, as well as also looking at how x operator works and the quirks for each. I take expansive trips out every so often and dutifully record them - that's about as gricer-ish as I get. However, I seldom worry about the types or vehicles - seeing the mist enveloping Glastonbury Tor on an autumn morning doesn't get prettier if it's on an e400 or an e200.

Note: I will sometimes share info of a sighting if I see stuff on the road, but only as others might find it interesting.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There is local transport oriented website. Here are some total threads stats:

Buses 172451

Rolling Stock 40841
Routes 20485
and 111125 not categorised. One of those uncategorised threads has by far the largest number of replies - First fleet 7536 replies.

plus
Trains 9193
Trams 6216
Aviation 3854
plus other headings without any specific transport subject, not listed here.

Based solely on those first two sub categories, there appears to be twice as much interest in fleet over routes.

 

[Mollman]

I am more interested in routes than vehicles but still like to keep up to date with who has what types of vehicles. It is hard however with some operators to find out about changes to services and obviously they happen less frequently than changes to fleet at bigger operators.

I am getting a bit frustrated with there being lots of books out there about the history of an operator which are just pictures. I would like to see a few maps and timetables amongst the fleet profiles.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am more interested in routes than vehicles but still like to keep up to date with who has what types of vehicles. It is hard however with some operators to find out about changes to services and obviously they happen less frequently than changes to fleet at bigger operators.

I am getting a bit frustrated with there being lots of books out there about the history of an operator which are just pictures. I would like to see a few maps and timetables amongst the fleet profiles.

I haven't got any of the books myself but I believe Keith Shayshutt (?) has produced a series of books on operations in which he worked, and they extend from pictures of vehicles through to some real operational and commercial detail.