Failures in hot weather. What needs to change?

[Andyh82]

mods note - split from this thread

ECML major disruption | 91107 fails at Knebworth

91107 has failed just outside of Knebworth Station with a loss of power. This happened around 13.38, according to RealTimeTrains. I’ve been told conditions onboard were extremely uncomfortable, as loss of power had caused the aircon so stop working, on a sealed train with no openable windows...

www.railforums.co.uk

Every year we hear reports of failed trains with unbearable conditions being left stranded for hours on end, people taking matters into their own hands etc. Its happened earlier than usual this year with the unseasonably warm conditions.

And every year nothing seems to be done, surely there should be a policy by now that after a certain amount of time, some sort of action is taken, doors opened, people evacuated or whatever.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Would there been an alternative such as moving the original failed unit to a station? Is there any reason why the thunderbird could just move it to the next station?

This train to train evaluation just seems to add unnecessary complication and I wouldn’t want my kids being transferred from one train to another over a tiny bridge.

I’ve never been on a 225 and don’t work them so I dunno much about them. X is full of stories of how bad it was. Awful.

 

[riceuten]

Every year we hear reports of failed trains with unbearable conditions being left stranded for hours on end, people taking matters into their own hands etc. Its happened earlier than usual this year with the unseasonably warm conditions.

And every year nothing seems to be done, surely there should be a policy by now that after a certain amount of time, some sort of action is taken, doors opened, people evacuated or whatever.

What tends to happen is that rail staff tend to have a meltdown, because - from their perspective - you are making a bad situation worse.

 

[Vexed]

I think I've seen on here before temporary barriers that let staff open external doors without it being too much of a hazard, to try and make a breeze. I assume the equipment wasn't available in this case?

I'm sure control were working as hard as possible to get everyone moving, but 4 (or was it closer to 5?) hours for a train to train evacuation means things must have gone very wrong. It was only 20 miles north of Bounds Green depot (800s) and Hornsey depot (700/717)! Okay, maybe there were no 800s or 700s spare but with the 717 fleet is always underutilised. Maybe an 800 was the best shot, but I'd be surprised if it took so long for one to be made available. It just shows how tight resources (crew and units) are I suppose.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm trying to get my head round the fact that passengers were locked inside the train for a few hours rather than the doors able to be opened in an emergency.

That's enough to put me off a 225 trip in hot weather!

 

[Swedenorer]

Every year we hear reports of failed trains with unbearable conditions being left stranded for hours on end, people taking matters into their own hands etc. Its happened earlier than usual this year with the unseasonably warm conditions.

And every year nothing seems to be done, surely there should be a policy by now that after a certain amount of time, some sort of action is taken, doors opened, people evacuated or whatever.

It's becoming a deterent to travel for some I'm sure

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I still recall the grim train failure on GNER on July 2004 between York and Donny in which I was on an HST with no aircon for ... er ... some time. C.90 F outside. Took months before I felt up to travel on GNER again after being part of that.

These days, I would expect pax to start self-evacuating fairly quickly in such conditions.....rules or no rules, as people's tolerance for significant delays is much lower.

I thought on the 225s the provision of bars that could be put across some of the doors, allowing them to be opened, plus provision of a bottled water stock were made mandatory after that?

Btw, I think it is mandatory in most brigade areas for the Fire Brigade to show up whenever a large scale medically-related incident occurs to help re rescue/access if needed... and to help deal with people who are getting panicky.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Would there been an alternative such as moving the original failed unit to a station? Is there any reason why the thunderbird could just move it to the next station?

This train to train evaluation just seems to add unnecessary complication and I wouldn’t want my kids being transferred from one train to another over a tiny bridge.

I’ve never been on a 225 and don’t work them so I dunno much about them. X is full of stories of how bad it was. Awful.

What was really unacceptable in this incident was the train was stopped at a signal just over a train length past Knebworth station, the driver must of known something was wrong so why not stop in the actual platform?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Anyone who reads my occasional posts knows I know little about railways BUT once again the time taken to rescue seems unacceptable. It happens time and again. Do we take no account of the risks of passengers alighting themselves?

 

[Centralsimon]

I had the great displeasure of being on 1A18 yesterday. Firstly the crew and off duty LNER staff behaved professionally and admirably. The train manager was a real credit to LNER for their actions.

However how the failure was handled was appalling and should be investigated by regulatory bodies.

We came to a stop, with main lighting failed about 100m south of Knebworth. Initial reports of fault finding morphed into checks being made in the rear unit . Morale was high and behaviour good. Water being handed out.Things went down hill when we were told the rescue train was being dispatched from York. We were then informed that an empty set would sent from London and we would be evacuated on this. However this seemed to take a long time and the situation onboard because unbearable. The air conditioning had failed, witnessed at least 3 customers faint, multiple panic attacks, children crying. Toilets became full. Police and more staff arrived and conditions on board were so poor, people had opened the doors.

After around 3,5 hours we were transferred over to the set sent from London.

Arrived onto a further 225 set , where we waited for nearly 2 hours as this set had failed, brakes wouldn't release.

When the thunderbird eventually dragged us back to Stevenage, met by a large emergency service response of fire, police and ambulance and 3 people required medical attention, albeit not sent to hospital.

I have been commuting from Peterborough for approaching 19 years and working in the industry, I can tell you LNER failed yesterday...again.

People were left in poor conditions and if this had been warmer than 20c, the number of casualties would be higher. Luckily morale onboard was reasonably high and the crew fantastic.

I struggle, with RDG guidance note clearly setting out obligations meeting the needs of passengers on stranded trains, why this was managed so poorly.

I want to reiterate, the crew and off duty LNER staff were a credit to that company, but this can't continue. Conditions were upsetting. People collapsed onboard. More had panic attacks.

Then we must not ignore, those who couldn't get to Wembley or other football matches or those who couldn't collect their marathon numbers (although arrangements were made for those impacted to contact race organisers), those cancelling show tickets. Passengers who dared to trust LNER to deliver a weekend in London.

In other news, on the return after work, Thameslink totally collapsed after 2200. Only 1 Peterborough left kings cross, missing out stops and only 1 Cambridge, albeit with 2 more "promised"

 

[Cowley]

I had the great displeasure of being on 1A18 yesterday. Firstly the crew and off duty LNER staff behaved professionally and admirably. The train manager was a real credit to LNER for their actions.

However how the failure was handled was appalling and should be investigated by regulatory bodies.

We came to a stop, with main lighting failed about 100m south of Knebworth. Initial reports of fault finding morphed into checks being made in the rear unit . Morale was high and behaviour good. Water being handed out.Things went down hill when we were told the rescue train was being dispatched from York. We were then informed that an empty set would sent from London and we would be evacuated on this. However this seemed to take a long time and the situation onboard because unbearable. The air conditioning had failed, witnessed at least 3 customers faint, multiple panic attacks, children crying. Toilets became full. Police and more staff arrived and conditions on board were so poor, people had opened the doors.

After around 3,5 hours we were transferred over to the set sent from London.

Arrived onto a further 225 set , where we waited for nearly 2 hours as this set had failed, brakes wouldn't release.

When the thunderbird eventually dragged us back to Stevenage, met by a large emergency service response of fire, police and ambulance and 3 people required medical attention, albeit not sent to hospital.

I have been commuting from Peterborough for approaching 19 years and working in the industry, I can tell you LNER failed yesterday...again.

People were left in poor conditions and if this had been warmer than 20c, the number of casualties would be higher. Luckily morale onboard was reasonably high and the crew fantastic.

I struggle, with RDG guidance note clearly setting out obligations meeting the needs of passengers on stranded trains, why this was managed so poorly.

I want to reiterate, the crew and off duty LNER staff were a credit to that company, but this can't continue. Conditions were upsetting. People collapsed onboard. More had panic attacks.

Then we must not ignore, those who couldn't get to Wembley or other football matches or those who couldn't collect their marathon numbers (although arrangements were made for those impacted to contact race organisers), those cancelling show tickets. Passengers who dared to trust LNER to deliver a weekend in London.

In other news, on the return after work, Thameslink totally collapsed after 2200. Only 1 Peterborough left kings cross, missing out stops and only 1 Cambridge, albeit with 2 more "promised"

That sounds horrendous. Presumably you witnessing this.

The air conditioning had failed, witnessed at least 3 customers faint, multiple panic attacks, children crying.

Was just in your part of the train, so there could have been many more?

 

[Centralsimon]

That sounds horrendous. Presumably you witnessing this.

Was just in your part of the train, so there could have been many more?

It was a deeply unpleasant experience. Was standing in doorway of coach C as train already fairly packed at Peterborough

Was travelling to work with a colleague, so we offered support and reassurance to those about us, offering basic first aid advice. I observed 2 people from coach B being assisted by BTP as a medical emergency, 2 people people besides me suffered a panic attack, young child also suffered acute stress and assisted another family by keeping their child occupied by talking about the tube.

Press reports indicated 3 people required assistance by ambulance crew at Stevenage Station, but not taken to hospital. But I would suggest the number who were unwell was indeed higher as most would have recovered somewhat when the air-conditioning was working on the rescue train.

Reading the RDG guidance on this, its impossible to fully understand what went wrong. It feels a system failure of decision making , rather than any individuals.

The risks with this stalled train were high and the only which prevented a major uncontrolled self evacuation was the hard work of the entire crew and the eventual arrival of the BTP

 

[Failed Unit]

There are the pros / cons and challenges here.

To me, the walk down the track to Knebworth would probably have being the best option for passengers. (Although not sure how they would get the disabled passengers out). However of course this would need a total line block (which may happen anyway). What happens to the heavy baggage?

One at Knebworth and the line is safe then great northern could collect.

Back in the class 91 being the principal traction on the route. The thunderbird would be a London anyway. Again now you see too often it is dispatched from a significant distance away.

However non of the traction seems that good on ECML. Azusa fails? Can the next one push it? From what I understand not with passengers on board. With the line being so busy it is highly unlikely emptying a train to tow will be easy. For all its faults GTR seem to get things moving quicker. The will evacuate at places like Brookmans Park.

 

[spp]

I had the great displeasure of being on 1A18 yesterday. Firstly the crew and off duty LNER staff behaved professionally and admirably. The train manager was a real credit to LNER for their actions.

However how the failure was handled was appalling and should be investigated by regulatory bodies.

We came to a stop, with main lighting failed about 100m south of Knebworth. Initial reports of fault finding morphed into checks being made in the rear unit . Morale was high and behaviour good. Water being handed out.Things went down hill when we were told the rescue train was being dispatched from York. We were then informed that an empty set would sent from London and we would be evacuated on this. However this seemed to take a long time and the situation onboard because unbearable. The air conditioning had failed, witnessed at least 3 customers faint, multiple panic attacks, children crying. Toilets became full. Police and more staff arrived and conditions on board were so poor, people had opened the doors.

After around 3,5 hours we were transferred over to the set sent from London.

Arrived onto a further 225 set , where we waited for nearly 2 hours as this set had failed, brakes wouldn't release.

When the thunderbird eventually dragged us back to Stevenage, met by a large emergency service response of fire, police and ambulance and 3 people required medical attention, albeit not sent to hospital.

I have been commuting from Peterborough for approaching 19 years and working in the industry, I can tell you LNER failed yesterday...again.

People were left in poor conditions and if this had been warmer than 20c, the number of casualties would be higher. Luckily morale onboard was reasonably high and the crew fantastic.

I struggle, with RDG guidance note clearly setting out obligations meeting the needs of passengers on stranded trains, why this was managed so poorly.

I want to reiterate, the crew and off duty LNER staff were a credit to that company, but this can't continue. Conditions were upsetting. People collapsed onboard. More had panic attacks.

Then we must not ignore, those who couldn't get to Wembley or other football matches or those who couldn't collect their marathon numbers (although arrangements were made for those impacted to contact race organisers), those cancelling show tickets. Passengers who dared to trust LNER to deliver a weekend in London.

In other news, on the return after work, Thameslink totally collapsed after 2200. Only 1 Peterborough left kings cross, missing out stops and only 1 Cambridge, albeit with 2 more "promised"

Sorry so police arrived and therefore I presume boarded? But they wouldn’t let people who wanted to get off?

I’ll be honest I’d be taking the arrest in that situation. Much rather be stuck in a cell being provided water than stuck on a train with people passing out around me. Absolutely awful way to treat people.

 

[Centralsimon]

There are the pros / cons and challenges here.

To me, the walk down the track to Knebworth would probably have being the best option for passengers. (Although not sure how they would get the disabled passengers out). However of course this would need a total line block (which may happen anyway). What happens to the heavy baggage?

One at Knebworth and the line is safe then great northern could collect.

Back in the class 91 being the principal traction on the route. The thunderbird would be a London anyway. Again now you see too often it is dispatched from a significant distance away.

However non of the traction seems that good on ECML. Azusa fails? Can the next one push it? From what I understand not with passengers on board. With the line being so busy it is highly unlikely emptying a train to tow will be easy. For all its faults GTR seem to get things moving quicker. The will evacuate at places like Brookmans Park.

To keep things on topic

I would suggest, to comply with RDG guidance of a 60 min evacuation of an electric train in warm weather, multiple responses would have been required.

Here we had a station around 100m away, with limited facilities but a highly viable access point. We had 3 open lines. The train had a significant risk of self evacuation

To comply with the RDG guidance, the sensible option would be a train to track detrainment. I would even have parked an empty unit at Knebworth that people could walk straight onto. That would have solved the majority of the passenger issues.

In my case, there was at least one visually impaired person. Plus of course LNER would have loads of luggage.

Maybe a second unit sent for a cross transfer could have been used if there was a significant number of mobility restricted customers.

 P

 

[spp]

Just out of interest how wpuld one go about a ‘self evacuation’ because I’ll be honest in a situation anywhere close to the above I’ll be leading it.

 

[Centralsimon]

Sorry so police arrived and therefore I presume boarded? But they wouldn’t let people who wanted to get off?

I’ll be honest I’d be taking the arrest in that situation. Much rather be stuck in a cell being provided water than stuck on a train with people passing out around me. Absolutely awful way to treat people.

Correct. From my position doors were opened eventually by passengers but I didnt witness any attempt to self evacuate. But of course once doors open, a self evacuation is only a few mins behind. The onboard staff behaved in an exemplary way, hosts / catering staff positioned around the train. I would argue that it was their presence and the announcements from the TM which prevented this. But the TM did receive some abuse for not being able to release the doors.

 

[Failed Unit]

To keep things on topic

I would suggest, to comply with RDG guidance of a 60 min evacuation of an electric train in warm weather, multiple responses would have been required.

Here we had a station around 100m away, with limited facilities but a highly viable access point. We had 3 open lines. The train had a significant risk of self evacuation

To comply with the RDG guidance, the sensible option would be a train to track detrainment. I would even have parked an empty unit at Knebworth that people could walk straight onto. That would have solved the majority of the passenger issues.

In my case, there was at least one visually impaired person. Plus of course LNER would have loads of luggage.

Maybe a second unit sent for a cross transfer could have been used if there was a significant number of mobility restricted customers.

 P

You probably noticed many trains pass you heading south. But to be honest you were a very simple evacuation point. The station could just have the next train in any direction take them somewhere. Knebworth wouldn’t really cope with a whole train load of people as it doesn’t really have much other public transport.

I have had a similar situation once. We were stopped by a level crossing. So to take us out you would need some coaches. Again they took medical emergencies off. The train crew (and control) never knew how long it would take to fix the track circuit failure.

 

[Anonymous10]

There are the pros / cons and challenges here.

To me, the walk down the track to Knebworth would probably have being the best option for passengers. (Although not sure how they would get the disabled passengers out). However of course this would need a total line block (which may happen anyway). What happens to the heavy baggage?

One at Knebworth and the line is safe then great northern could collect.

Back in the class 91 being the principal traction on the route. The thunderbird would be a London anyway. Again now you see too often it is dispatched from a significant distance away.

However non of the traction seems that good on ECML. Azusa fails? Can the next one push it? From what I understand not with passengers on board. With the line being so busy it is highly unlikely emptying a train to tow will be easy. For all its faults GTR seem to get things moving quicker. The will evacuate at places like Brookmans Park.

Surely if its known itll be a while getting as many passengers off as possible is a good thing?

Fewer passengers means less heat generated, keeping the carriages cooler for those who cant leave.

 

[Failed Unit]

Does anyone know how long it takes to fully evacuate a train if needed? I suspect you are talking 1 hour plus. I don’t know how many people need to be scrambled. I know some organisations mobilise worse case action and then stand them down if not needed. I just not sure myself how long you take to make the evacuate call. If it takes 1 hour to do it, then trying to fix it for 30 mins isn’t making it 30 minutes longer for people on board. However let people off quickly and load them into coaches only for the train to move away under its own power isn’t good either.

To me I am just still surprised how long it takes to move the train by any means. Not sure what was wrong with the set, however sending a thunderbird from York was always going to be slow.

 

[Centralsimon]

Does anyone know how long it takes to fully evacuate a train if needed? I suspect you are talking 1 hour plus. I don’t know how many people need to be scrambled. I know some organisations mobilise worse case action and then stand them down if not needed. I just not sure myself how long you take to make the evacuate call. If it takes 1 hour to do it, then trying to fix it for 30 mins isn’t making it 30 minutes longer for people on board. However let people off quickly and load them into coaches only for the train to move away under its own power isn’t good either.

To me I am just still surprised how long it takes to move the train by any means. Not sure what was wrong with the set, however sending a thunderbird from York was always going to be slow.

RDG guidance says evacuation should commence by 60 mins and be completed within 90 mins, depending on other risks such as heat / cold/ light/ self evacuation

The Thunderbird from York would never have arrived within the 90 mins window so in the Knebworth incident the decision was made to bring a train from Kings Cross and to do a train to train evacuation.

Based on yesterday, it did take about 30 mins to complete the evacuation, however I couldn't tell exactly when it started and the train was busy but not crush loaded

 

[DelW]

One relatively low cost mitigation might be to mandate that all a/c coaches have one emergency openable window on each side, to permit some degree of through ventilation. It could be kept locked by the same power supply as feeds the a/c, so that a failure of the a/c supply automatically releases the locks.
I doubt if anyone would want to spend the money on the mk4s, but this is likely to recur on other stock in the future.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is it just me, but have most of the big incidents involved LNER?

Both Azuma’s and 91s.

I am sure West Coast and GWR fail but not as many threads on here (which I agree is not scientific. GTRs trains also fail lots, especially the 379s at the moment. Again I am not hearing about people cooking onboard. (Of course you have the option to split multiple units)

 

[amahy]

One relatively low cost mitigation might be to mandate that all a/c coaches have one emergency openable window on each side, to permit some degree of through ventilation. It could be kept locked by the same power supply as feeds the a/c, so that a failure of the a/c supply automatically releases the locks.

I agree with this as a sensible solution. My problem with air-con, is that it is very unreliable, and always seems to fail when it is needed most - on busy, hot trains during the warmer months. I am sure the case with 91107 won't be the last this year!

In my opinion, all new trains should be built with air-con, and openable windows which are locked apart from when the air-con fails. Examples of trains which already have this arrangement include the 158s, 334s, and 165s. It is unreasonable to expect passengers to sit in a sealed tube for hours with no airflow, whether the train is moving or not. Many TOCs seem to have forgotten that people need air to breathe.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not sure if am a going off topic, but the 170/4 at EMR that spent some time on Southern also had the opening windows re-retrofitted. The 91s Air-conditioning has always had challenges. “GNER offers you a very warm welcome” The HSts also failed but at least you could open the windows.

However it still doesn’t alter the fact that things take a lot longer to recover now. Back in the days of “East Coast” I was on a 91 that failed at Alnmouth heading South, we arrived at Newcastle just under 2 hours late towed by a 67 that was waiting at Newcastle just for such a failure.

 

[43096]

Same old, same old with the railway industry. So far up its own self obsessed backside it forgets that there are real people on its trains.

It’s nothing new, either. Back in June 2005, several GNER Mark 4 sets lost power during an OHLE incident on a hot day. Sound familiar? In that case passengers resorted to breaking windows to get fresh air.

20 years on and it’s still the same. No doubt trite “lessons will be learned” statements will be made. But they aren’t. It is a complete and utter disgrace.

 

[david1212]

My concern as a passenger is how long it takes to sort. I guess in the old days the King’s Cross thunderbird would arrive much quicker. The azumas also seem to take ages to shift when they fail looking at recent threads.

....
As an aside, the sole dedicated ECML T'bird was north of York when the issue first occurred, shadowing the Midland Pullman HST, which had had power car issues. The T'bird was seen returning through York at 1405 (so, 25 minutes after the incident occurred, the dedicated T'bird was approximately 155 miles away, in case that sheds any light on the timings of some of it).

While the specific failure prompting this thread to be started was made worse by the weather and a 'sealed' train generally the core issue both for passengers onboard a failed train and those affected by the line be blocked is the long time taken for recovery.

Specifically here ~400 miles of busy railway, just one dedicated Thunderbird and a lack of depots with unallocated but available suitable motive power ( be that standalone locomotives or sets that can haul a demic one that preferably is diesel given the issue often means that the electricity is off ) and a crew never going to get the failure moved to where the passengers can leave to await onward travel then the train moved to it can be left with minimal disruption in the shortest practical time period.
If the failure can not be hauled at a much reduced speed say 30mph but not 5mph so requiring side-by-side evacuation then more complicated but again the key is getting the second train in place as soon as possible even if it means terminating another service short where those passengers can await onward travel. They will of course not be happy but the consolation is that doing this will get them to their destinations with the minimum delay.

Back to 16th April and the disruption on the WCML when a class 390 set became entangled with the catenary the evacuation then moving of the set took a while. The movement was by LSL using 2 x Class 20 and a Class 47 even though dedicated class 57/3 locomotives were created to move the class 390's. Various posts followed mine which combined state how things are now and were even before 1995 but ignore that several 57/3's are not strategically located along the routes the class 390's work. A class 57/3 can of course move any failure. Only derailment or the relatively rare need for a wheel skate should complicate movement so long as the train and the 'knitting' are seperated.

Directly of course having contingency available has a cost but that should be offset against minimising disruption and in the big picture not discouraging passengers from using rail travel.

 

[Falcon1200]

I thought on the 225s the provision of bars that could be put across some of the doors, allowing them to be opened, plus provision of a bottled water stock were made mandatory after that?

That procedure was, IIRC, introduced after a similar unpleasant incident, ie a Mark 4 set stranded with no power and becoming unbearably hot. From what @Centralsimon says in Post #17 this was not done here?

 

[Centralsimon]

That procedure was, IIRC, introduced after a similar unpleasant incident, ie a Mark 4 set stranded with no power and becoming unbearably hot. From what @Centralsimon says in Post #17 this was not done here?

Correct. Apart from the apparent self releasing of doors by passengers, the only doors open were staffed by BTP and had no barriers.

It was amazing how much difference this made.

I suspect the issue here, is the crew are preparing for an evacuation and truthfully things shouldnt take so long that doors needed to be opened.

While the fault could have failed the air con, it seems that the air con is immediately load shed, probably designed in a different era where there would have been many locos available across lines to assist. Do Azumas load shed the air con instantly as well or does the diesel engine help feed them?

 

[Falcon1200]

I suspect the issue here, is the crew are preparing for an evacuation and truthfully things shouldnt take so long that doors needed to be opened.

Thanks for the info. I wonder too whether proximity to a station led to concerns about self-evacuation if the doors were opened, even with the barriers in place.

Sympathies for your ordeal BTW.