SWR class 458/4 - possible withdrawal speculation

[Fincra5]

Reported in Modern Railways that they could be heading to GTR. I could have a good guess about their use and the resultant cascade but I won't because this is a non-speculative thread.

Not sure on that for a DOO network!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Not sure on that for a DOO network!

They’d have to have DOO cameras fitted, and monitors in the cab. Not sure where the monitors would go considering how small it is.

 

[Siemens Staines]

How many months did that last then, can't be more that a year since they refurbed the last one

The 458/4 programme started with 458507 + 458517 being taken from passenger service on 23.09.21. The final 458/4 to enter passenger service was 458419 on 23.05.25. At that point 458401 & 458403 had both been stopped for some time, although both did subsequently re-enter service on 10.07.25 and 20.07.25 respectively. 458401 was then stopped for a second time on 11.08.25. To date, the three week period between 20.07.25 and 11.08.25 is the only time since 23.09.21 that all 28 of this batch have been in service.

 

[Goldfish62]

They’d have to have DOO cameras fitted, and monitors in the cab. Not sure where the monitors would go considering how small it is.

The 350s have had DOO monitors fitted despite it previously being said by some that there wouldn't be enough room in those cabs, so I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[stadler]

They’d have to have DOO cameras fitted, and monitors in the cab. Not sure where the monitors would go considering how small it is.

They would also have to have door control buttons fitted. The 458/4s have no door control buttons for the driver in the cab. A huge amount of modifications are needed for DOO work. I very highly doubt that GTR will take them. I would be very surprised if they end up anywhere other than the scrapyard.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

They would also have to have door control buttons fitted. The 458/4s have no door control buttons for the driver in the cab. A huge amount of modifications are needed for DOO work. I very highly doubt that GTR will take them. I would be very surprised if they end up anywhere other than the scrapyard.

I agree, but I think it’s pretty likely they’ll be taken. Modern Railways’ sources usually aren’t wrong. I imagine they’ll have an entire cab rebuild, as it would be too complex to try and do a retrofit, but who knows really.

 

[Goldfish62]

They would also have to have door control buttons fitted. The 458/4s have no door control buttons for the driver in the cab. A huge amount of modifications are needed for DOO work. I very highly doubt that GTR will take them. I would be very surprised if they end up anywhere other than the scrapyard.

When they were 458/0s they did have door buttons as they were designed for DOO, albeit using platform mirrors. However, presumably there's something else now in place of the door buttons.

Nevertheless, the 442s were fitted with door buttons when they did their stint with Southern so in theory it can be done.

 

[NSEWonderer]

If this is true then how many routes on Southern have external camera monitors? Rewiring and installing the door buttons back on the driver desk area wouldn't be too difficult but a rewire to add DOO monitors and hook it up with one of the most temperamental TMS would be something...

 

[JonathanH]

What distinct service group would GTR need a fleet of 28 non-standard units?

I guess they could be dedicated to Coastway services displacing 377/3s back to London, and 387s to Gatwick Express, but it would undo a lot of good work that Southern has done to have a fully Electrostar fleet.

 

[Chiltern006]

Paint (vinyl) them red and stick them on the Gatwick Express, all 387s greened up and moved to Southern thus removing the problem of “Italian Flagged” stock on the Gatwick Express and giving the Gat Ex a proper pool of trains and making it a decent and slightly worthwhile upgrade to Southern.

 

[sabanda]

Actual first class seats on Southern? Shock horror!

 

[SECR 65]

In a recent NR report, the need for extra rolling stock for the BML was pointed out.

Brighton Main Line improvements

Network Rail has published this month (April 2026) a summary strategy document with options on improving the Brighton main line (BML)...

www.railforums.co.uk

Where this extra stock could come from, I do not know.

Are the Uckfield and Marshlink lines the only remaining guard working on Southern?

Crazy idea #1 - Fit the 458s with batteries to get rid of the 171s.
Crazy idea #2 - Fit the 458s with pantographs to work elsewhere in the UK.

Could the 458s even go to Great Northern so that GTR could have their 387s?
Pre-Covid 12 coach trains on Southern were common iirc, but nowadays almost everything is an 8, even a 4 on some GatEx services recently.

 

[43096]

Crazy idea #2 - Fit the 458s with pantographs to work elsewhere in the UK.

Could the 458s even go to Great Northern so that GTR could have their 387s?

It’s a crazy idea when you consider there are 37 off-lease AC Desiros, owned by the same company as the 458s.

 

[TransportHub]

In a recent NR report, the need for extra rolling stock for the BML was pointed out.

Brighton Main Line improvements

Network Rail has published this month (April 2026) a summary strategy document with options on improving the Brighton main line (BML)...

www.railforums.co.uk

Where this extra stock could come from, I do not know.

Are the Uckfield and Marshlink lines the only remaining guard working on Southern?

Crazy idea #1 - Fit the 458s with batteries to get rid of the 171s.
Crazy idea #2 - Fit the 458s with pantographs to work elsewhere in the UK.

Could the 458s even go to Great Northern so that GTR could have their 387s?
Pre-Covid 12 coach trains on Southern were common iirc, but nowadays almost everything is an 8, even a 4 on some GatEx services recently.

The West London Line from Clapham to Watford is Guarded but those trains continue DOO to East Croydon EWD (all stops) so the driver door controls would still be needed

 

[Kite159]

..

The West London Line from Clapham to Watford is Guarded but those trains continue DOO to East Croydon EWD (all stops) so the driver door controls would still be needed

And require dual voltage stock, which the last time I checked a 458 was DC only.

 

[TransportHub]

And it only needs 3 units to run the full service, so what the other 25 do I don't know.....

 

[SECR 65]

..

And require dual voltage stock, which the last time I checked a 458 was DC only.

How hard would it be to fit overhead AC to the 458s? (Not being sarcastic, genuine question.)

 

[JonathanH]

It would seem easier to have them work on the Coastway like the 313s did. Raw workings seem to be:
2 units Brighton to Eastbourne
3 units Brighton to Ore
3 units Brighton to Seaford
8 units Brighton to Southampton
3 units Brighton to Chichester
3 units Brighton to Portsmouth

28 units for 24 diagrams, releasing 387s for Gatwick Express and 377/3s for Metro or possibly 10-car work, although the return of 4tph Gatwick Express is not something most would want to see.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Reported in Modern Railways that they could be heading to GTR.

How interesting, would be Southern presumably, doubt Gat Ex though it'd finally solve the 387 muddle as they could then just brand them all as Southern, or at a huge push Thameslink on exclusively Blackfriars to Kents, but I highly doubt it. 8-700 to 8-458/4 with 2+2 seating and tables is a huge drop in capacity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2026 ==

releasing 387s for Gatwick Express

They don't even use anywhere near all of the ones they've got.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2026 ==

Paint (vinyl) them red and stick them on the Gatwick Express, all 387s greened up and moved to Southern thus removing the problem of “Italian Flagged” stock on the Gatwick Express and giving the Gat Ex a proper pool of trains and making it a decent and slightly worthwhile upgrade to Southern.

This would be my preferred move of choice. It keeps Southern fully Electrostar* then, allows them to get the 387/2s in line with the rest of the fleet, and it would be an almost like for like swap -- 27 387/2 for 28 458/4. I don't think they NEED a full replacement all the while it's a 2tph service, and I don't advocate for them upping it as someone who dislikes the Gatwick Express, but maybe they could triple the 458s (assuming they don't have the same problem as the PDL )

 

[Siemens Staines]

Given that there are already known clearance issues with 458/4 on the higher numbered SWR platforms at Clapham Jct, then presumably similar restrictions would apply to the Southern platforms which must have slightly tighter curves than the SWR platforms? I know that 460s worked fine through the Southern platforms, but so too did 458/0 through the SWR platforms and times have change since then. I imagine the Hove platforms at Brighton could also have restrictions if coastway services were being considered?

 

[SECR 65]

Gatex needs 12 units in the peak with the current timetable to form 6 8-coach trains - although you could make some services 12 coach - so 18 units.

 

[Transilien]

Reported in Modern Railways that they could be heading to GTR.

This is the company that scrapped the 365s just because they didn’t have DOO! The only way I could have seen the 458s sticking around is if SWR didn’t order so many 701s.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How hard would it be to fit overhead AC to the 458s? (Not being sarcastic, genuine question.)

Quite easy probably - they were designed to be convertible and I think at least 458 001 and possibly 458 002 as well were tested on 25Kv AC with pantographs fitted prior to being delivered.

...but given their age, would it really be worth it, with likely only 10 - 12 years life left in them?

 

[SECR 65]

Any open access operators for the 458s???

 

[swt_passenger]

Quite easy probably - they were designed to be convertible and I think at least 458 001 and possibly 458 002 as well were tested on 25Kv AC with pantographs fitted prior to being delivered.

...but given their age, would it really be worth it, with likely only 10 - 12 years life left in them?

IIRC the last time it was discussed seriously, ie around 2017 (when they theoretically had only about 2-3 years in service with the new SWR), and the 458s were intended to go off lease, it was already considered uneconomic to fit them for AC.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Any open access operators for the 458s???

Not that I’d ever believe they’ll be given the go-ahead, but the 458/4 fleet would be far more suitable than the outdated 769/9s for the Alliance Marchwood proposal.

Edit: Oh no, I’m forgetting Marchwood needs bi-mode capabilities.

 

[JonathanH]

This is the company that scrapped the 365s just because they didn’t have DOO!

They scrapped them because passenger numbers didn't support their continued use, same as the 455s and 313s which again became surplus to requirements.

 

[brad465]

If this reported move happens, if I've calculated correctly it will put Southern on -36 units compared to pre-455 withdrawal (currently -64*). Carriage numbers though of course vary as 458/4s are 4-car, while the 19x 313s were 3-car, plus I would not be surprised if some more 377s move over to Southeastern from this cascade (although I can still see a net gain in units on current numbers happening if this move goes ahead).

*Based on 46x 455s and 19x 313s leaving, then two 377s from SE to Southern, 13 other 377s going to Southeastern, while gaining 25x 387s

 

[JonathanH]

If this reported move happens, if I've calculated correctly it will put Southern on -36 units compared to pre-455 withdrawal (currently -64*).

This has to be measured against service groups which are long gone, and capacity that isn't required. Southern may be 64 units down against some arbitrary historical fleet size but it is more difficult to measure against what is the ideal, given the work that has been done to improve the utilisation of the fleet where it is needed.

I would not be surprised if some more 377s move over to Southeastern from this cascade (although I can still see a net gain in units on current numbers happening if this move goes ahead).

Indeed. A highly desirable position for Southeastern would be to only need to replace Networkers on metro routes, and not have the complication of metro units reaching Tunbridge Wells. That would appear to need more 377s.

 

[brad465]

This has to be measured against service groups which are long gone, and capacity that isn't required. Southern may be 64 units down against some arbitrary historical fleet size but it is more difficult to measure against what is the ideal, given the work that has been done to improve the utilisation of the fleet where it is needed.


Indeed. A highly desirable position for Southeastern would be to only need to replace Networkers on metro routes, and not have the complication of metro units reaching Tunbridge Wells. That would appear to need more 377s.

SE will need at least 15 more 377s to make that happen, and for 12-car 377s to be permitted on these services. In theory this is doable, but how many SE get depends on how much of a net gain Southern need.

One other complication though is a re-jigging of allocating this route away from Grove Park and Slade Green would be required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2026 ==

Scrap is most likely, but if they were to have another life they'd be more likely to go to Southern, who have a lower fleet variety than Southeastern, thus could shoulder the extra maintenance and knowledge burden better I think. This could lead to Southeastern receiving more 377s, but I cannot see a direct 458 move Southeastern working out.

Southern would be even less likely than Southeastern to want them. As mentioned the 458/4s require guards and Southern only have a tiny amount of guards left. They are not going employ and reintroduce more guards and reverse the DOO rollout that happened. Plus they have no need for them. They have enough 377s and 387s now. They are not going to get rid of some and replace them with older 458/4s just so Southeastern can have more newer units. Southern have zero chance of taking them.

I wish I'd put a bet on this given the latest reports.