Should trains be fitted with special horns which can bypass noise cancelling technology?

[Hbbz9392]

Hello. Crashes with headphones are getting more and more common and it seems incidents in similar vein happened recently. Recently, Skoda has touted DuoBell, a special bicycle bell which when ringed emits a particular frequency and with a irregular pattern unblockable by headphones. It was test drived with delivery drivers in London and the test was successful. The bell was heard a lot quicker than a regular bell and garnered quick reaction. I will link the video describing it below:

Could this technology be adapted to trams and other sorts of railway vehicles to prevent pedestrian collision? Could this be a standard equipment on trains of the future?

 

[blimmo]

And the arms race begins...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Trams should really be required to have much louder horns than they do anyway.

 

[The exile]

Trams should really be required to have much louder horns than they do anyway.

People should be required to stop, look and listen. The only people who have an excuse for needing a tram to sound a horn except when starting are blind people who cannot see the rails.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

People should be required to stop, look and listen. The only people who have an excuse for needing a tram to sound a horn except when starting are blind people who cannot see the rails.

I definitely agree it's the responsibility of the pedestrian, but I've always thought trams horns are so feeble they're next to useless anyway.

 

[Merle Haggard]

What about designing noise-cancelling headphones that don't cancel the sound of horns?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I definitely agree it's the responsibility of the pedestrian, but I've always thought trams horns are so feeble they're next to useless anyway.

But would you really want to be making an extremely loud noise right in the centre of a city.
In Manchester I don't see much ignoring of the horn (although the inability for people to think the bright yellow thing will follow the marks on the ground surprises me).

 

[The exile]

What about designing noise-cancelling headphones that don't cancel the sound of horns?

… and engine noise, people shouting “watch out”, saying “excuse me” etc etc etc.

 

[172007]

This is what the EU is so good at. Legislate that noise cancelling equipment in the EU should not cancel certain sounds or for 10 or 20 second after.

It would be another reason for us to automatically adopt EU laws automatically for commonality / interopability.

 

[GB]

Should we also legislate to get people wrapped up in cotton wool or check they are wearing appropriate clothing when leaving the house?

 

[Hbbz9392]

What about designing noise-cancelling headphones that don't cancel the sound of horns?

for doing the non-blockage at the headphone side the only solution i can think of is an always-on microphone which would introduce privacy and battery concerns. equipping the tram or the train with a special horn seems a more straightforward and bulletproof solution

 

[pokemonsuper9]

non-blockage at the headphone side the only solution i can think of is an always-on microphone which would introduce privacy and battery concerns.

that's how active noise cancelling works

 

[Hbbz9392]

that's how active noise cancelling works

allowing certain sounds is harder than cancelling a sound as for cancelling a sound is straightforward, you send an opposite signal to the incoming sigal from my understanding (i don't use headphones outside so i don't know if i am explaining it right, the skoda video i linked did have an explanation on how it worked.) to allow a certain sound there needs to be an algorithm that is able to determine if a sound should be allowed or not. this would also require all wireless headphones to get a mandatory update to allow this which adds another hole to the swiss cheese

 

[pokemonsuper9]

allowing certain sounds is harder than cancelling a sound as for cancelling a sound is straightforward, you send an opposite signal to the incoming sigal from my understanding (i don't use headphones outside so i don't know if i am explaining it right, the skoda video i linked did have an explanation on how it worked.) to allow a certain sound there needs to be an algorithm that is able to determine if a sound should be allowed or not. this would also require all wireless headphones to get a mandatory update to allow this which adds another hole to the swiss cheese

Yes, I don't see many optionally making their headphones worse.
I don't wear my headphones anywhere but home (or other private spaces) so any change to allow certain sounds for dangerous outdoors situations would be useless to me.

 

[edwin_m]

In the street trams use a bell, or a whistle in the case of Metrolink (I think both are played electronically through a speaker rather than being physical devices), which I suggest is about the right volume for alerting at the relatively short distances involved, without being an undue inconvenience (although a house near the Nottingham tram did for a while display a big poster "the bell is hell"). The horn is usually much louder and used off-street but can also be used on-street if someone isn't reacting to the other warning.

It's an interesting idea if something can be engineered to be heard through noise-cancelling headphones, and perhaps the EU could legislate to prevent the headphone makers blocking this specific sound only (but not the wide range of audible warnings used on different vehicles). Having got some headphones recently I was surprised to find them passing through the PA announcements on a Voyager while all the other sounds were pretty muffled.

 

[Merle Haggard]

for doing the non-blockage at the headphone side the only solution i can think of is an always-on microphone which would introduce privacy and battery concerns. equipping the tram or the train with a special horn seems a more straightforward and bulletproof solution

People choosing to wear these headphones can't hear danger signals. Should it not be their responsibly to improve this, not that of the rest of the world?

 

[Hbbz9392]

People choosing to wear these headphones can't hear danger signals. Should it not be their responsibly to improve this, not that of the rest of the world?

doing this at the headphone level's a lot more complex than doing it at the train's side as the only thing needed is retrofitting the trains with the appropriate horns. the skoda bicycle bell i linked was also an analogue solution so it's not going to break or anything. it's also not going to impact the horn's operation or effect, as it's still a horn at the end.

 

[blimmo]

Tbh I don't want there to be any sounds my headphones don't block. The reason I am wearing them is that I don't want to hear them. I will make my own decision on when to take them off to keep myself safe.

 

[SargeNpton]

Pedestrians and cyclists really shouldn't be wearing headphones in any situation where not being able to hear other sounds puts them at risk. It shouldn't be up to others to overcome their self-imposed handicap.

N.B. as someone with tinnitus and about 75% hearing less, I have to be very aware of what's around me as I know that I may not hear audible warnings.

 

[blimmo]

Pedestrians and cyclists really shouldn't be wearing headphones in any situation where not being able to hear other sounds puts them at risk. It shouldn't be up to others to overcome their self-imposed handicap.

N.B. as someone with tinnitus and about 75% hearing less, I have to be very aware of what's around me as I know that I may not hear audible warnings.

I think wearing headphones is fine as long as you compensate by being more careful and removing them when in particularly dangerous situations. If I am walking along the pavement I will be wearing noise cancelling headphones since the alternative is listening to car noise. When crossing the road I will usually take them off but sometimes not if the crossing point has particularly good visibility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2026 ==

As always "where not being able to hear other sounds puts them at risk" is a scale: being able to hear could always save your life but is sometimes more likely. People will make that decision for themselves.

 

[stevieinselby]

From a purely selfish point of view, it is in the railway's interests to do as much as it can to prevent people from becoming victims of their own carelessness, because every incident or near miss can cause significant disruption and a lot of paperwork, and could lead to a driver or other crew being out of action for a while (either PTSD or maybe gardening leave pending an investigation) – all of which are very much bad. So yes, while people should take responsibility for their own actions, the railways also have a vested interest in keeping them safe for reasons that have nothing to do with with nanny state, political correctness gone made or anything like that, and everything to do with trying to keep the trains running as smoothly and efficiently as possible. If that means sometimes doing more than some people might think is necessary to protect the general public from their own stupidity, it's usually a price worth paying.

 

[Pigeon]

I recommend reading the research which is said to be behind this thing. There is a PDF here: http://cdn.skoda-storyboard.com/2026/04/Skoda-DuoBell-Research-final_cf127752.pdf

Without all the advertising guff it is clear that it's struggling a bit to produce its positive conclusion. The so-called "magic hole" is in fact a mere 3dB reduction in attenuation and basically makes no difference in busy/noisy street environments with distractions. (Are we talking about trains as in the thread title, or trams as in much of the discussion?)

 

[PTR 444]

How long before this technology starts being used by the railway for “See it, Say it, Sorted” announcements?

 

[Harpers Tate]

"We" (society) are far too keen to absolve people from responsibility for their own safety. Wear NC headphones and you should expect that they will impair your hearing and react accordingly. I don't see it as (for example) the Rail industry's responsibility to accomodate those who freely choose to impair their own senses.

 

[Paul AC]

Speaking as an electronics engineer, it's perfectly technically feasible to make headphones that can receive a special frequency, or better some sort of coded frequency pattern, that triggers a reduction in volume of the music/whatever being played through the headphones, and/or adds a verbal message. This frequency could be super-sonic so not audible to humans (though dogs might notice it). Standards and legislation would need to be developed, though.

 

[spyinthesky]

Being hard of hearing, I prefer to wear things that increase my hearing ability of everyday life.
To me Common Sense reducing technology is not for me

 

[Hbbz9392]

(Are we talking about trains as in the thread title, or trams as in much of the discussion?)

the title was originally trams and other sorts of trains but because it seemed too long i collapsed it all to trains. trams seem to be the primary thing of collision hence me mentioning trams explicitly

 

[bspahh]

If lived near a tram route and wore noise-cancelling ear buds to get to sleep, I would be pretty cross if I still got the horn warning. If there was going to be a bypass in the noise cancellation, there could also be a motion sensor, so its only applied if you are moving.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I definitely agree it's the responsibility of the pedestrian, but I've always thought trams horns are so feeble they're next to useless anyway.

I have wondered why UK trams don't have a shrill whistle as per London Underground's stock. No confusion with a road vehicle, for sure.

 

[FlyingHazard]

Speaking as an electronics engineer, it's perfectly technically feasible to make headphones that can receive a special frequency, or better some sort of coded frequency pattern, that triggers a reduction in volume of the music/whatever being played through the headphones, and/or adds a verbal message. This frequency could be super-sonic so not audible to humans (though dogs might notice it). Standards and legislation would need to be developed, though.

I had the same idea but I think the signal would be ultrasonic rather than supersonic