SWR class 458/4 - possible withdrawal speculation

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There's no confirmation that the 458/4 will be withdrawn yet, so this seems really premature.

 

[Goldfish62]

There's no confirmation that the 458/4 will be withdrawn yet, so this seems really premature.

I suppose it depends on whether you consider that storage and withdrawal are fundamentally different things. SWR have already stated that the 458/4s will start going into storage later this year (January Modern Railways).

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Pompey users still would not be very happy with the 3+2 450s hence the conversion of the 458s, a very poor decision if it is decided to get rid of the 458s. Just swap the current 458 diagrammed London suburban services for local southern 450 run services such as Portsmouth Hbr-Soton Central, Winchester-Bmth services if the 458s are stored at Bournemouth? The 3+2 450s may give better capacity for London people, better chance of getting a seat if not served by 701s.

Are 458s cleared to run west of Poole, the West Coastway bit, Botley to Eastleigh and the Lymington branch?

If SWR decide to remove the 458s, then they'd better get on with converting some 450s to 2+2 (akin to the 350s) for Portsmouth services as suggested here numerous times then maybe GBR will pay more attention this time

 

[35B]

Pompey users still would not be very happy with the 3+2 450s hence the conversion of the 458s, a very poor decision if it is decided to get rid of the 458s. Just swap the current 458 diagrammed London suburban services for local southern 450 run services such as Portsmouth Hbr-Soton Central, Winchester-Bmth services if the 458s are stored at Bournemouth? The 3+2 450s may give better capacity for London people, better chance of getting a seat if not served by 701s.

Are 458s cleared to run west of Poole, the West Coastway bit, Botley to Eastleigh and the Lymington branch?

If SWR decide to remove the 458s, then they'd better get on with converting some 450s to 2+2 (akin to the 350s) for Portsmouth services as suggested here numerous times then maybe GBR will pay more attention this time

I think the odds on such attention from GBR can be seen in how DfT have made decisions about the costs of providing service on the network in general.

 

[Stephen42]

458401 has been out of service since 11.08.25. I believe it was being used as a source of spares, but I don't know whether that is still the case or if it will ever return to service. The Feb LTP diagrams, which predate the current low availability, reduced the number of diagrams from 24 to 22 which may be an indication that it isn't going to return to service any time soon.

Several other units haven't been in service recently: 402 (since February 25th), 405 (February 24th), 409 (February 25th), 410 (February 5th). These are probably due to be fixed at some point.

Pompey users still would not be very happy with the 3+2 450s hence the conversion of the 458s, a very poor decision if it is decided to get rid of the 458s. Just swap the current 458 diagrammed London suburban services for local southern 450 run services such as Portsmouth Hbr-Soton Central, Winchester-Bmth services if the 458s are stored at Bournemouth? The 3+2 450s may give better capacity for London people, better chance of getting a seat if not served by 701s.

All current 458 diagrams are due to become 701s. There would be a few 701s available at peak times to run more services and around 22 450s freed up as well. That's a fair amount of room for growth without needing the 458s.

To introduce the 458s elsewhere would require significant effort; clearance, staff training, maintenance all on top of lease costs. SWR are only on the hook for them until 2027 and looks an easy way to cut costs.

Are 458s cleared to run west of Poole, the West Coastway bit, Botley to Eastleigh and the Lymington branch?

Poole maybe though sectional appendix doesn't look that consistent. 458/4s aren't currently cleared for any of the others with only 458/5s cleared for some.

 

[Robert Carroll]

I seem to recall from another thread that a 12-car formation of 458/4s would be too long for all but about three or four platforms at Waterloo and would only fit a couple of platforms at Portsmouth Harbour. Plus I believe there is union resistance to their use on routes where 458s have not previously worked regularly on account of their cabs. So, I would not expect to see the 458/4s last very long.

 

[Goldfish62]

I seem to recall from another thread that a 12-car formation of 458/4s would be too long for all but about three or four platforms at Waterloo and would only fit a couple of platforms at Portsmouth Harbour. Plus I believe there is union resistance to their use on routes where 458s have not previously worked regularly on account of their cabs. So, I would not expect to see the 458/4s last very long.

I forget which thread exactly, but the issues have been covered extensively and we can be pretty sure they're never going to be seen on Portsmouth services, or any mainline services. They're reaching the end of the road as regards usefulness to SWR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2026 ==

Pompey users still would not be very happy with the 3+2 450s hence the conversion of the 458s, a very poor decision if it is decided to get rid of the 458s. Just swap the current 458 diagrammed London suburban services for local southern 450 run services such as Portsmouth Hbr-Soton Central, Winchester-Bmth services if the 458s are stored at Bournemouth? The 3+2 450s may give better capacity for London people, better chance of getting a seat if not served by 701s.

Are 458s cleared to run west of Poole, the West Coastway bit, Botley to Eastleigh and the Lymington branch?

If SWR decide to remove the 458s, then they'd better get on with converting some 450s to 2+2 (akin to the 350s) for Portsmouth services as suggested here numerous times then maybe GBR will pay more attention this time

Are the Pompey users who were unhappy about the 450s two decades ago even still around? Among the complaints about SWR on the usual social media channels you really don't see the issue being raised like it used to be.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Because it's become the norm, the 450s were a step down from the 442s they replaced. The complaints largely disappeared when Southern brought in the 313s and people realised how bad things could be, similarly GWR brought in turbos to replace 158s on the Cardiff route so the 450s became the best of the lot (bar the 444s). Given their age it's unlikely there'll be an upgrade to them. If there was any sense GBR would consider a massive EMU order to replace the 375s, 377s and 450s in a few years.

 

[JonathanH]

If SWR decide to remove the 458s, then they'd better get on with converting some 450s to 2+2 (akin to the 350s) for Portsmouth services as suggested here numerous times then maybe GBR will pay more attention this time

Isn't the answer to that one just "tough"? The use of 450s with their current configuration has simply become the norm.

If there was any sense GBR would consider a massive EMU order to replace the 375s, 377s and 450s in a few years.

They should still have easily around 15 to 20 years use ahead of them. 458s are non standard, but the other contemporary units are part of large standard fleets.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Because it's become the norm, the 450s were a step down from the 442s they replaced.

442s were a minority on the Portsmouth line. 4CIG/BIGs were the usual fare on the fast services, and VEPs on the stoppers)

 

[Goldfish62]

4CIG/BIGs were the usual fare on the fast services, and VEPs on the stoppers)

Showing my age, I remember these well. Fasts usually CIG-BIG-CIG and stoppers VEP-VEP.

 

[WWTownEnth]

MD of SWR has said that retirement of these units will begin shortly.

Modern Railways is the source

 

[TransportHub]

Given this is in the speculative thread, I hope you won't mind me getting my crayons out....

I'd send the 458/4s to Southeastern, there should be enough to scrap/store a few more networkers and confine the remaining ones to the metro area. So the Tunbridge Wells turnbacks (and Maidstone East peaks? Do they still run with 465s?) can have proper mainline stock.

Maybe some of the longer distance metro workings could use 458s too (like the Gravesend terminators)

 

[stadler]

Given this is in the speculative thread, I hope you won't mind me getting my crayons out....

I'd send the 458/4s to Southeastern, there should be enough to scrap/store a few more networkers and confine the remaining ones to the metro area. So the Tunbridge Wells turnbacks (and Maidstone East peaks? Do they still run with 465s?) can have proper mainline stock.

Maybe some of the longer distance metro workings could use 458s too (like the Gravesend terminators)

The only place where the 458/4s are realistically going is the scrapyard. Maybe one will get preserved but even that seems very unlikely considering that none of the 456s even got preserved.

The 458/4s have to have a guard onboard. They have no ability for DOO use. They do not even have any door controls in the cab for the driver to use. So they would require big modifications if Southeastern took them. I can not see them being interested in doing that. Southeastern run DOO on metro services and on mainline services within the metro area.

Also i can not see Southeastern having any interest in replacing 465s and 466s with 458/4s which are only about six years newer. It is not really much difference for them when they are looking at ordering new stock soon anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only place where the 458/4s are realistically going is the scrapyard. Maybe one will get preserved but even that seems very unlikely considering that none of the 456s even got preserved.

I think you’re right - it’s not happening when a 350/2 to GW and 387 cascade to SN/SE would be far more likely especially for standardisation, as has been suggested in a different thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2026 ==

[…]
They should still have easily around 15 to 20 years use ahead of them. 458s are non standard, but the other contemporary units are part of large standard fleets.

I also think the idea of a simultaneous ie massive replacement of the 3 main DC EMU fleets is unthinkable. Where’s the factory that could cope with such an order, and if one was set up what would it do until the next replacement in 35-40 years time?

The term ‘rolling programme’ comes to mind…

 

[Snow1964]

The only place where the 458/4s are realistically going is the scrapyard. Maybe one will get preserved but even that seems very unlikely considering that none of the 456s even got preserved.

When the upgrade and 4car conversion was announced in April 2021, it was also stated that lease was extended to 2027. Not yet clear to me if SWR will continue to pay for them until next year (even if not using them)

The 458/4s have to have a guard onboard. They have no ability for DOO use. They do not even have any door controls in the cab for the driver to use. So they would require big modifications if Southeastern took them. I can not see them being interested in doing that. Southeastern run DOO on metro services and on mainline services within the metro area.

At one time the 458s had a RVAR rail accessibility exemption which specifically stated valid when used by SWT only. Unless they been modified to clear this exception, then presumably can't be used by SouthEastern

The Rail Vehicle Accessibility (South West Trains Class 458 Vehicles) Exemption (Amendment) Order 2002

This Order amends the Rail Vehicle Accessibility (South West Trains Class 458 Vehicles) Exemption Order 2002 (S.I. 2002/656), which authorises the use of specified rail vehicles even though they do not conform with the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 1998 (S.I. 1998/2456, amended by S.I...

www.legislation.gov.uk

Also i can not see Southeastern having any interest in replacing 465s and 466s with 458/4s which are only about six years newer. It is not really much difference for them when they are looking at ordering new stock soon anyway.

Neither can I see them wanting them, but if they wanted something quickly (without waiting for new builds which might be 4-5 years away) adding third rail shoes to stored 350s would seem better option.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I also agree, with disappointment, the 458s look destined for the scrapyard (that also newer stock such as the 360/2s already went for the chop).

Also the likelihood of the 350/2s being taken on by SWR/GBR South Western to be turned into "450 Plus" with 2+2 for Portsmouth services seem more realistic than retaining the 458s however a dedicated pool of existing 450s converted to 2+2 could be a stronger certainity due to availability of the 450s being cascaded as more 701s get rolled out.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also the likelihood of the 350/2s being taken on by SWR/GBR South Western to be turned into "450 Plus" with 2+2 for Portsmouth services seem more realistic than retaining the 458s however a dedicated pool of existing 450s converted to 2+2 could be a stronger certainity due to availability of the 450s being cascaded as more 701s get rolled out.

But no stronger certainty than retaining the 2+3 450s. Do you really think that DfT will suddenly change their preference for ‘seats over space’ that was first stated back around 2007?

 

[JonathanH]

Do you really think that DfT will suddenly change their preference for ‘seats over space’ that was first stated back around 2007?

Arguably that is what they did by allowing the 458/4 conversion in the first place. However, I agree that movement on 2+2 seated 450s seems unlikely unless there becomes a plan to shift the interior fittings from the 458/4s to a group of 450s. I can't see it happening.

 

[Mikey C]

Has such an insignificant class of train ever had so many major changes made to it?

Completely changing the end gangways
Merging them with the 460s and converting them to 75mph 5 car metro units.
Reducing them back to 4 car 100mph units for express use.

 

[brad465]

The only place where the 458/4s are realistically going is the scrapyard. Maybe one will get preserved but even that seems very unlikely considering that none of the 456s even got preserved.

The 458/4s have to have a guard onboard. They have no ability for DOO use. They do not even have any door controls in the cab for the driver to use. So they would require big modifications if Southeastern took them. I can not see them being interested in doing that. Southeastern run DOO on metro services and on mainline services within the metro area.

Also i can not see Southeastern having any interest in replacing 465s and 466s with 458/4s which are only about six years newer. It is not really much difference for them when they are looking at ordering new stock soon anyway.

Scrap is most likely, but if they were to have another life they'd be more likely to go to Southern, who have a lower fleet variety than Southeastern, thus could shoulder the extra maintenance and knowledge burden better I think. This could lead to Southeastern receiving more 377s, but I cannot see a direct 458 move Southeastern working out.

 

[Snow1964]

Has such an insignificant class of train ever had so many major changes made to it?

Completely changing the end gangways
Merging them with the 460s and converting them to 75mph 5 car metro units.
Reducing them back to 4 car 100mph units for express use.

The only class I can think of with multiple changes, is some of the 2HAP (class 414) units got converted to 2SAP (class 418), later back to 2HAP, then were paired into 4CAP (class 413)

 

[35B]

The only class I can think of with multiple changes, is some of the 2HAP (class 414) units got converted to 2SAP (class 418), later back to 2HAP, then were paired into 4CAP (class 413)

None of which were involved any serious engineering - these have had two major sets of re-engineering.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

None of which were involved any serious engineering - these have had two major sets of re-engineering.

Class 309s?
- Redesign of cab end to remove wrap round windows
- Extension of 2 car sets to 4 cars
- Replacement of griddle cars with converted hauled coaches
- Removal of 2nd class compartments
- Heavy refurb in 1987 only to start to be replaced 2 years later by brand new 321s

 

[Ridgeblog]

I do wonder could any 458s be spared? They might store them for a while waiting for a potential use making it like the 379 situation. The ex 460s I feel stand even less chance of seeing further use.

 

[stadler]

Scrap is most likely, but if they were to have another life they'd be more likely to go to Southern, who have a lower fleet variety than Southeastern, thus could shoulder the extra maintenance and knowledge burden better I think. This could lead to Southeastern receiving more 377s, but I cannot see a direct 458 move Southeastern working out.

Southern would be even less likely than Southeastern to want them. As mentioned the 458/4s require guards and Southern only have a tiny amount of guards left. They are not going employ and reintroduce more guards and reverse the DOO rollout that happened. Plus they have no need for them. They have enough 377s and 387s now. They are not going to get rid of some and replace them with older 458/4s just so Southeastern can have more newer units. Southern have zero chance of taking them.

 

[Snow1964]

I do wonder could any 458s be spared? They might store them for a while waiting for a potential use making it like the 379 situation. The ex 460s I feel stand even less chance of seeing further use.

Actually I do wonder if old Southern Railway style reconstruction could take place. Think more like the old 2NOL units underframes being used for some 2HAPs.

Ok not underframes in the era of integral collision structure body shells, but I doubt there is anything wrong with the bogies and many other parts that would not be suitable another couple of decades use.

More specifically could they form the basis of some scenic tourist sets, perhaps sealing up half the doors. They have fairly deep windows (by modern standards), could easily be marshalled into fixed formation hauled sets with just the outer couplings changed (even if they need generator coaches)

I realise we don't really do many scenic or holiday trains in UK, but compared to riding some of the prettiest routes squashed in a noisy 2car DMU probably would be bliss. Could even do some cruise relief trains or footex specials (there is always threads were people mentioning lack of capacity). Big events like Cheltenham and Glastonbury (these are examples) seem to lack rolling stock, with other services cancelled to provide stock.

I am just wondering if some are missing a trick by assuming they must either work as 4car electric units in Kent, or be scrapped, making a binary choice. Is thinking outside the box is not an option. Especially as it's only 2 years since some were heavily refurbished.

 

[35B]

Actually I do wonder if old Southern Railway style reconstruction could take place. Think more like the old 2NOL units underframes being used for some 2HAPs.

Ok not underframes in the era of integral collision structure body shells, but I doubt there is anything wrong with the bogies and many other parts that would not be suitable another couple of decades use.

More specifically could they form the basis of some scenic tourist sets, perhaps sealing up half the doors. They have fairly deep windows (by modern standards), could easily be marshalled into fixed formation hauled sets with just the outer couplings changed (even if they need generator coaches)

I realise we don't really do many scenic or holiday trains in UK, but compared to riding some of the prettiest routes squashed in a noisy 2car DMU probably would be bliss. Could even do some cruise relief trains or footex specials (there is always threads were people mentioning lack of capacity). Big events like Cheltenham and Glastonbury (these are examples) seem to lack rolling stock, with other services cancelled to provide stock.

I am just wondering if some are missing a trick by assuming they must either work as 4car electric units in Kent, or be scrapped, making a binary choice. Is thinking outside the box is not an option. Especially as it's only 2 years since some were heavily refurbished.

I think the 2 years since heavy refurbishment will be part of why the scrap option is in that binary. That is sunk investment that the owners will want to recoup or, if they cannot, seek some recovery on.

Converting them to be able to do as you suggest will be a significant cost - assuming it's even possible. The sort of occasional uses you mention struggle to justify even over-provision of existing fleets, let alone investment in "new" stock.

 

[Goldfish62]

Reported in Modern Railways that they could be heading to GTR.

 

[Northerngirl]

How many months did that last then, can't be more that a year since they refurbed the last one