Witnesses to the rescue

[EGO]

It doesn't matter if you get a witness.

You committed the offence prior to any "cancellation of penalty fare" announcement and the offence was complete. It makes no difference what, if anything, was said later. The train company is perfectly entitled to prosecute you regardless, and indeed can only do so if it cancels the penalty fare by some mechanism - whether this was at the time, or later, following it going unpaid. You are guilty of the offence, as you have laid out in the series of events.

Thank you for the advice. Do you have knowledge of a case like this before? I received advice too that I just need a witness or two.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2026 ==

It doesn't matter if you get a witness.

You committed the offence prior to any "cancellation of penalty fare" announcement and the offence was complete. It makes no difference what, if anything, was said later. The train company is perfectly entitled to prosecute you regardless, and indeed can only do so if it cancels the penalty fare by some mechanism - whether this was at the time, or later, following it going unpaid. You are guilty of the offence, as you have laid out in the series of events.

Noted. Thank you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the advice. Do you have knowledge of a case like this before? I received advice too that I just need a witness or two.

Yes, we have seen plenty of people having had Penalty Fares for being in the 1st class compartment, and we have seen cases where people have been threatened with being prosecuted for doing this too (which is more serious than a Penalty fare because the fine is higher than a Penalty Fare and you also get a criminal record)

where did you get that advice from?

If it was not from a legally qualified expert I don't think I would present myself in a court (with the railway company's prosecuting person there acting for them against you) and chance that the advice might work to get the court to find in your favour.

The risk is that you end up having to pay the court quite a big sum (several hundred £) - probably more than you are being asked to pay now to close the matter.

What are you being asked to pay now by the way?

 

[EGO]

Yes, we have seen plenty of people having had Penalty Fares for being in the 1st class compartment, and we have seen cases where people have been threatened with being prosecuted for doing this too (which is more serious than a Penalty fare because the fine is higher than a Penalty Fare and you also get a criminal record)

where did you get that advice from?

If it was not from a legally qualified expert I don't think I would present myself in a court (with the railway company's prosecuting person there acting for them against you) and chance that the advice might work to get the court to find in your favour.

The risk is that you end up having to pay the court quite a big sum (several hundred £) - probably more than you are being asked to pay now to close the matter.

What are you being asked to pay now by the way?

£140.

You seem to think that if a group of people (assuming I find them) go to court to say the ticketing officer said she will cancel the ticket based on her assessment on the day that is of no effect to a magistrate.

 

[WesternLancer]

£140.

Pay this sum to end the matter is my advice.

You seem to think that if a group of people (assuming I find them) go to court to say the ticketing officer said she will cancel the ticket based on her assessment on the day that is of no effect to a magistrate.

Basically yes. That’s what I think. @AlterEgo has explained exactly why a few threads up.
The magistrates might sympathise with what has happened at best and might even set the lowest fine they can (which would still be more than £140 I reckon) but I don’t think they have the ability to pass a not guilty verdict for the reasons explained.
This is because at the time you entered the first class compartment you had been given no permission to do so.

It’s a strict liability offence.

Incidentally is there a reason why you have not shared copies of the paperwork about this despite me asking you to do so in several posts?
You don’t have to but if you are not going to would be polite to say you do not wish to share them. It would save me asking you again at least.

 

[Sun Chariot]

£140.

You seem to think that if a group of people (assuming I find them) go to court to say the ticketing officer said she will cancel the ticket based on her assessment on the day that is of no effect to a magistrate.

I fully agree with all the wise and experienced advice given to you by @AlterEgo and by @WesternLancer - the risk to you: a Court fine of several hundred pounds and a Criminal record, versus a £140 Penalty Fare, the decision really should be an easy one.

You will find numerous threads in this Forum section, where:
a) a Revenue Protection person has verbally (only) assured a person travelling (without the valid ticket / valid Railcard, or is occupying a carriage higher "class" area than permitted by their ticket) that their Penalty Fare can be appealed and / or cancelled...
b) ...only for the person to later discover the offence they had committed, "trumps" any - misplaced (and strictly incorrect) - verbal "it's OK" assurance said by the Revenue person.

So - is it worth the risk of you losing in Court?

 

[saismee]

Frankly, a train being jam-packed does not give you the right to stand in a first class area with a standard class ticket. As much as I may agree with your position, the nature of the offence, as others have mentioned, is strict liability. This means that you are guilty, whether you intended to commit it or not.

Unfortunately, if you had come to the forum immediately, the experts here may well have been able to help you get the penalty overturned based on technical reasons. Someone telling you that it would be cancelled isn't actually a valid reason, despite how unfair that may seem.

 

[EGO]

Understood. Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==

I fully agree with all the wise and experienced advice given to you by @AlterEgo and by @WesternLancer - the risk to you: a Court fine of several hundred pounds and a Criminal record, versus a £140 Penalty Fare, the decision really should be an easy one.

You will find numerous threads in this Forum section, where:
a) a Revenue Protection person has verbally (only) assured a person travelling (without the valid ticket / valid Railcard, or is occupying a carriage higher "class" area than permitted by their ticket) that their Penalty Fare can be appealed and / or cancelled...
b) ...only for the person to later discover the offence they had committed, "trumps" any - misplaced (and strictly incorrect) - verbal "it's OK" assurance said by the Revenue person.

So - is it worth the risk of you losing in Court?

Noted. Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==

Pay this sum to end the matter is my advice.

Basically yes. That’s what I think. @AlterEgo has explained exactly why a few threads up.
The magistrates might sympathise with what has happened at best and might even set the lowest fine they can (which would still be more than £140 I reckon) but I don’t think they have the ability to pass a not guilty verdict for the reasons explained.
This is because at the time you entered the first class compartment you had been given no permission to do so.

It’s a strict liability offence.

Incidentally is there a reason why you have not shared copies of the paperwork about this despite me asking you to do so in several posts?
You don’t have to but if you are not going to would be polite to say you do not wish to share them. It would save me asking you again at least.

Thanks. The advice without the papers is enough. Recall I originally came to find witnesses then got free para-legal advice. Except I am looking for further technicalities which I am not then it seem a pointless exercise.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks. The advice without the papers is enough. Recall I originally came to find witnesses then got free para-legal advice. Except I am looking for further technicalities which I am not then it seem a pointless exercise.

That’s ok then if you are happy with that.
But
Without knowing what sort of court action you are facing I don’t think we can be confident in stating what would happen if it got to court, in terms of likely out for you.
That’s the reason for asking.

But as I say, you don’t need to share it.

Do let us know how this matter concludes in due course.

You do have my sympathy.

Incidentally I assume you know the first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always open to standard class ticket holders to use. The scrolling information screen in that compartment confirms that in writing.
The front such compartment is not.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks. The advice without the papers is enough. Recall I originally came to find witnesses then got free para-legal advice. Except I am looking for further technicalities which I am not then it seem a pointless exercise.

Well, we don't even know the nature of the company's demand to you yet other than they want you to pay £140.

Is it a civil demand for you to pay the penalty fare? Is it a summons? Is it a notice of intended prosecution?

We can help with all of those things and propose actions, defences, or mitigations depending on what the company has sent you, but if you cannot show us the paperwork you have received we will be unable to give specific advice, other than we can be sure you committed an offence because of what you told us. (But we don't know if the company is *prosecuting it* yet, or whether they have chosen the right offence, or whether they are making a demand for monies properly or improperly owed or whether they have made some other mistake)

 

[jumble]

Thanks. By 'weak' , I mean they cannot stop prosecution. They are more or less advisory though an objective third party.

As to not having a chance to appeal or submitting out of date appeals, what happened was I believed the PF will be cancelled after the ticketing staff said so. I went about my life only to be surprised by a warning. By the time the warning letter arrived the appeal period had already lapsed.

I have learned that it is a sad fact of life that many times people and or systems dont do what they say they will
Too many times it is a "person with a broom" who advises
I mitigate this by checking
for example
When my car insurance renews I check a few days later on ASKMID
If I book a hotel via an OTA i contact the hotel, do not give any reference number and ask if they are aware of my booking
If you were to follow this you wont go far wrong
As others have advised the reality is that your only hope is goodwill and I suggest you keep very polite and unentitled in any correspondence with TL asking if they will consider dropping the £140.00 if that is the road you will be going down

 

[EGO]

I have learned that it is a sad fact of life that many times people and or systems dont do what they say they will
Too many times it is a "person with a broom" who advises
I mitigate this by checking
for example
When my car insurance renews I check a few days later on ASKMID
If I book a hotel via an OTA i contact the hotel, do not give any reference number and ask if they are aware of my booking
If you were to follow this you wont go far wrong
As others have advised the reality is that your only hope is goodwill and I suggest you keep very polite and unentitled in any correspondence with TL asking if they will consider dropping the £140.00 if that is the road you will be going down

Thanks.

 

[RJ]

I have learned that it is a sad fact of life that many times people and or systems dont do what they say they will
Too many times it is a "person with a broom" who advises

The other side of this is that it's impossible to know what was actually said without being party to the conversation. It's not unknown for people to interpret statements in a way that matches what they want to hear - in fact it's something I come across a lot, working in the ticket office. I have heard revenue staff give the "appeal and it might get cancelled" line to people before but that's not a free pass to not follow the due process.

Whatever was, or wasn't said, those trains are 8-12 carriages long. If 10 people chose to get on through the one set of doors for First Class and self-upgrade for the journey and got a penalty fare for it then it's best to chalk it to experience and move on.

 

[EGO]

Looking for anyone on Thameslink train from St Albans or Harpenden to St Pancras on 28 Jan 2026 (approx 07:30–08:15). Around 10 passengers were issued penalty fares and then told by staff they would be cancelled but the penalty fares were not cancelled or not cancelled for all including me.

Please message if you were present. My email is engrehimen@yahoo.com. On principle I am going before a magistrate. A statement via email from you will be helpful to boost my case. Get in touch please. My name is Gabriel.

Update:

Thank you all for your various advice. I have found 3 witnesses elsewhere on two Facebook commuter groups. Two witnesses were themselves issued PF in the same compactment but had it cancelled following the ticketing staff announcement. The other was an eyewitness who also heard what the staff said.

This is all I need. I never denied I was in the first class compactment. My point is why mine was not cancelled in the group cancellation.

Travel Watchdog agrees the rules were broken but said I should not be selectively sanctioned if other were cancelled. They will send an advisory to Thameslink if I send a witness statement or two. I will do that a.s.a I get their statements and particulars.

 

[WesternLancer]

Update:

Thank you all for your various advice. I have found 3 witnesses elsewhere on two Facebook commuter groups. Two witnesses were themselves issued PF in the same compactment but had it cancelled following the ticketing staff announcement. The other was an eyewitness who also heard what the staff said.

This is all I need. I never denied I was in the first class compactment. My point is why mine was not cancelled in the group cancellation.

Travel Watchdog agrees the rules were broken but said I should not be selectively sanctioned if other were cancelled. They will send an advisory to Thameslink if I send a witness statement or two. I will do that a.s.a I get their statements and particulars.

This seems helpful for you.

I would check with the people who have got back to you how their PFs were actually cancelled (get the written copies of the cancellation decision from them if you can - not just a statement from them saying they were cancelled - get proof of it! )

Find out from them - were they just written to out of the blue to cancel them?,
or
did they actually submit a proper appeal through the formal appeal process with the 'cancellation' as an outcome? If possible get copies of the paperwork they were sent about this.

Also
I still think it would be a mistake to let that go to court and take those statements. Personally I think the risk is the magistrates will not be very interested in these statements - so it still risks the court finding against you - (we don't know what they might find against you because you have not shown the paperwork)

So I would pay the sum demanded, then use those witness statements to get Travel Watch (if they are helping you now) to secure a repayment from Thameslink

If the court finds against you no one like Travelwatch will be able to get the court to refund you because the payment of fines to the court (if this is what it is) is not a payment to Thameslink - it's a punishment from the court and you don't get a refund for those without taking expensive legal action like an appeal to a higher court AIUI.....though I may be wrong.

I can not stress enough what a bad idea I think it is letting it go to court

But whatever you decide, do let us know what happens because it will be of help to others in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==

The other side of this is that it's impossible to know what was actually said without being party to the conversation. It's not unknown for people to interpret statements in a way that matches what they want to hear - in fact it's something I come across a lot, working in the ticket office. I have heard revenue staff give the "appeal and it might get cancelled" line to people before but that's not a free pass to not follow the due process.

Yes, and I note we have not seen a single other piece of original evidence of any of this to judge for ourselves other than what the OP has told us.

Now I'm not saying the OP is lying here - but we only have the OPs account of what happened on the day, their interpretation of the letters they have received, their interpretation of what Travel Watch have said etc. Plus their view that it is not worth sharing any copies of the original material with us here on the forum.

 

[EGO]

This seems helpful for you.

I would check with the people who have got back to you how their PFs were actually cancelled (get the written copies of the cancellation decision from them if you can - not just a statement from them saying they were cancelled - get proof of it! )

Find out from them - were they just written to out of the blue to cancel them?,
or
did they actually submit a proper appeal through the formal appeal process with the 'cancellation' as an outcome? If possible get copies of the paperwork they were sent about this.

Also
I still think it would be a mistake to let that go to court and take those statements. Personally I think the risk is the magistrates will not be very interested in these statements - so it still risks the court finding against you - (we don't know what they might find against you because you have not shown the paperwork)

So I would pay the sum demanded, then use those witness statements to get Travel Watch (if they are helping you now) to secure a repayment from Thameslink

If the court finds against you no one like Travelwatch will be able to get the court to refund you because the payment of fines to the court (if this is what it is) is not a payment to Thameslink - it's a punishment from the court and you don't get a refund for those without taking expensive legal action like an appeal to a higher court AIUI.....though I may be wrong.

I can not stress enough what a bad idea I think it is letting it go to court

But whatever you decide, do let us know what happens because it will be of help to others in the future.

They said shortly after I got off that the PF was collected from those it was issued to. This mean some who received PF may have been missed. One of the witness has a picture of his own PF before he handed it back. They did not do any appeals. No paper work. Till today Thameslink did not contact them.

Their testimony is good enough for me because we cannot all be hallucinating. I am convinced Thameslink will heed Travel Watchdog advisory to withdraw the case.

If not, others advise I received is that my case shoukd be built on the concept "use of discretion should not be discriminatory".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==

This seems helpful for you.

I would check with the people who have got back to you how their PFs were actually cancelled (get the written copies of the cancellation decision from them if you can - not just a statement from them saying they were cancelled - get proof of it! )

Find out from them - were they just written to out of the blue to cancel them?,
or
did they actually submit a proper appeal through the formal appeal process with the 'cancellation' as an outcome? If possible get copies of the paperwork they were sent about this.

Also
I still think it would be a mistake to let that go to court and take those statements. Personally I think the risk is the magistrates will not be very interested in these statements - so it still risks the court finding against you - (we don't know what they might find against you because you have not shown the paperwork)

So I would pay the sum demanded, then use those witness statements to get Travel Watch (if they are helping you now) to secure a repayment from Thameslink

If the court finds against you no one like Travelwatch will be able to get the court to refund you because the payment of fines to the court (if this is what it is) is not a payment to Thameslink - it's a punishment from the court and you don't get a refund for those without taking expensive legal action like an appeal to a higher court AIUI.....though I may be wrong.

I can not stress enough what a bad idea I think it is letting it go to court

But whatever you decide, do let us know what happens because it will be of help to others in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==


Yes, and I note we have not seen a single other piece of original evidence of any of this to judge for ourselves other than what the OP has told us.

Now I'm not saying the OP is lying here - but we only have the OPs account of what happened on the day, their interpretation of the letters they have received, their interpretation of what Travel Watch have said etc. Plus their view that it is not worth sharing any copies of the original material with us here on the forum.

Thanks. I get your view point and warning. There is someone very qualified handling this for me. Recall I originally came here to find witnesses.

 

[WesternLancer]

They said shortly after I got off that the PF was collected from those it was issued to. This mean some who received PF may have been missed. One of the witness has a picture of his own PF before he handed it back. They did not do any appeals. No paper work. Till today Thameslink did not contact them.

Their testimony is good enough for me because we cannot all be hallucinating. I am convinced Thameslink will heed Travel Watchdog advisory to withdraw the case.

If not, others advise I received is that my case shoukd be built on the concept "use of discretion should not be discriminatory".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==


Thanks. I get your view point and warning. There is someone very qualified handling this for me. Recall I originally came here to find witnesses.

Yes, thanks for all this - good luck and keep us informed of how it all goes.

 

[jumble]

The other side of this is that it's impossible to know what was actually said without being party to the conversation. It's not unknown for people to interpret statements in a way that matches what they want to hear - in fact it's something I come across a lot, working in the ticket office. I have heard revenue staff give the "appeal and it might get cancelled" line to people before but that's not a free pass to not follow the due process.

Whatever was, or wasn't said, those trains are 8-12 carriages long. If 10 people chose to get on through the one set of doors for First Class and self-upgrade for the journey and got a penalty fare for it then it's best to chalk it to experience and move on.

It is hard to disagree
I think we are both right

 

[EGO]

It is hard to disagree
I think we are both right

Thank you all for your 'expert' opinions and shared experience. I will update on things. I did find some witnesses on other forum which was my original intent here. I hear what you say irrespective of that.

 

[John R]

Thanks. I get your view point and warning. There is someone very qualified handling this for me. Recall I originally came here to find witnesses.

I hope the “very qualified person” is experienced in dealing with rail companies. I recall one infamous case where the poster ignored our advice and got a legal friend to draft a very legalistic and inappropriate response, which made the situation much worse for them.

 

[iamraymond]

I hope the “very qualified person” is experienced in dealing with rail companies. I recall one infamous case where the poster ignored our advice and got a legal friend to draft a very legalistic and inappropriate response, which made the situation much worse for them.

"No comment"

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all for your 'expert' opinions and shared experience. I will update on things. I did find some witnesses on other forum which was my original intent here. I hear what you say irrespective of that.

Experts or not I very much hope you get this resolved.
If you were told it would be cancelled by staff then it would be good to see that happen.

 

[snail]

They said shortly after I got off that the PF was collected from those it was issued to. This mean some who received PF may have been missed. One of the witness has a picture of his own PF before he handed it back. They did not do any appeals. No paper work. Till today Thameslink did not contact them.

That sounds like the revenue staff 'cancelled' the PFs (if there is such a thing) by claiming them back from the passengers.

 

[EGO]

I hope the “very qualified person” is experienced in dealing with rail companies. I recall one infamous case where the poster ignored our advice and got a legal friend to draft a very legalistic and inappropriate response, which made the situation much worse for them.

We shall see. They made some progress in dealing with the Travel Watchdog. They helped lodged a complaint with Thameslink directly outside the appeal system. Another seperate letter request preservation of ticket machine record.

Maybe this will come to nought and I will regret it deeply. We shall see.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==

Experts or not I very much hope you get this resolved.
If you were told it would be cancelled by staff then it would be good to see that happen.

This is what the Watchdog is pressing at. It is not contested that I broke the rules. I never did. But, they are saying that relying on staff communication denied me fair process whether or not the my appeal would have been successful. The Watchdog want the fact established that staff actually gave the instruction they gave.

I will let you people know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2026 ==

That sounds like the revenue staff 'cancelled' the PFs (if there is such a thing) by claiming them back from the passengers.

Believe it or not, this is what happened that I needed to prove along with the announcement they made.

I am also advised ticketing officers has discretion but in exercising such discretionary powers they have to show reason and fairness. The point is not whether I was correct in being in First class compacted. It is the subsequent directions that stopped me from appealing and also stopped me from paying a much lesser penalty of £50 right there at the spot.

Maybe I am day-dreaming. We shall see.

 

[Haywain]

and also stopped me from paying a much lesser penalty of £50 right there at the spot.

The £50 penalty does not have to be paid on the spot in any event. It is to be paid within 21 days after the issue of the Penalty Fare, with the 'clock' stopping while any appeals are considered.

 

[EGO]

The £50 penalty does not have to be paid on the spot in any event. It is to be paid within 21 days after the issue of the Penalty Fare, with the 'clock' stopping while any appeals are considered.

Ah! Point noted. Useful for later.

 

[island]

But presumably non payment of a penalty fare after the appeal has failed, If that is what has happened, Can be enforced by some sort of court action or otherwise why would anyone ever pay one.

Yes, an unpaid penalty fare can be pursued through county court as a civil debt after an unsuccessful appeal.

You seem to think that if a group of people (assuming I find them) go to court to say the ticketing officer said she will cancel the ticket based on her assessment on the day that is of no effect to a magistrate.

And it would be correct to think that.

An offence is committed by someone remaining in a first class area of a train whilst not in possession of a first class ticket or some other authority to be there. The offence cannot be "uncommitted". What happens to a Penalty Fare Notice issued in connection with the offence isn't of relevance.

A Magistrates Court would not even be able to hear the evidence of what a person claiming to be on the train stated that another person appearing to be a ticket inspector allegedly said, as such evidence would be hearsay.

 

[EGO]

Yes, an unpaid penalty fare can be pursued through county court as a civil debt after an unsuccessful appeal.

And it would be correct to think that.

An offence is committed by someone remaining in a first class area of a train whilst not in possession of a first class ticket or some other authority to be there. The offence cannot be "uncommitted". What happens to a Penalty Fare Notice issued in connection with the offence isn't of relevance.

A Magistrates Court would not even be able to hear the evidence of what a person claiming to be on the train stated that another person appearing to be a ticket inspector allegedly said, as such evidence would be hearsay.

Thanks. Noted.

At the risk of request to submit all paper work here or sounding hollow, I dare say it is a civil pursuit of non-payment. I will return to update everyone how it went. I came to find witnesses - I noted too that many pointed out that witnesses are worthless under the circumstance - but have been enriched by experience and thoughtful views. The emergence of witnesses is great. We will see the outcome.