UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[jon0844]

Why would I want a larger engine? Do I get better mpg from it?

I am not saying you want a larger engine, but you'll gain efficiency and save a small fortune with an EV of a similar size. The extra performance isn't to race off the lights but simply to make it easier to drive - even in an urban environment. My car isn't rapid to 60, but it absolutely is to 30. That means I can easily and safely pull out at junctions and roundabouts, possibly saving having to wait for a larger gap to play safe.

I owned a small car with a small engine. I've owned many small cars over the years. As I said, they work - but once you see what you could have instead, you won't go back.

 

[Mawkie]

How do we have a world where people think £44k is acceptable to spend on a car when on average they drive under 8000 miles a year.

It's not for anyone to tell anyone else how to spend their money. Some folks like cars, some like to spend on their garden, or fancy watches, or whatever they like really.

Why do people get so het up when petrol goes from £1.30 a litre to £1.50 a litre when they're spending 22p a mile on deprecation.

Because depreciation is really a 'sunk cost', it slowly ticks away in the background. Fuelling a car (and insuring it, taxing it, and maintaining it) are visible costs where people can see the costs coming out of their pockets.

I have a car to get me from A to B. My 1 litre micra, my wife's 1l skoda both work fine, and both get stuck behind the same vehicles

Good for you, and for some people basic transportation is all they need, but we have to accept that for some, cars are a status symbol, or want to travel (inter)nationally in comfort.

Will your next car choices be electric?

 

[miami]

Will your next car choices be electric?

Only if the price is right, and electric cars still cost far more than petrol cars, especially for below-average mileage users, in the new car category, the mid-range second hand car category, and the low cost second hand car category (which doesn't exist for electric)

 

[Mawkie]

Only if the price is right, and electric cars still cost far more than petrol cars, especially for below-average mileage users, in the new car category, the mid-range second hand car category, and the low cost second hand car category (which doesn't exist for electric)

Wasn't your reply earlier today based on The Independent reporting on an Autotrader article that electric cars are now cheaper than fossil fuel cars on average?

It is endlessly reported that BEVs depreciate like a stone - if you're suggesting second hand BEVs are more expensive than equivalent second hand ICE cars, then that's certainly a conundrum.

 

[Noddy]

Only if the price is right, and electric cars still cost far more than petrol cars, especially for below-average mileage users, in the new car category, the mid-range second hand car category, and the low cost second hand car category (which doesn't exist for electric)

Except they don’t. Read the Autotrader report we are discussing.

 

[Snow1964]

Only if the price is right, and electric cars still cost far more than petrol cars, especially for below-average mileage users, in the new car category, the mid-range second hand car category, and the low cost second hand car category (which doesn't exist for electric)

But it's not just initial purchase price.

A person doing average 8000 miles a year, was saving about £80 per month using overnight electricity vs petrol or diesel in fuel. Since fuel prices went up it is now nearer £100 per month.

There are other savings too, servicing is cheaper as no oil changes etc

So for anyone that can charge at home, even a £4000 purchase price premium, is likely to be able to be recovered in 3-4 years.

Anyone who has 20, 30, 40 years of motoring has got years of saving ahead going electric (although how much will be saved depends on future fuel, electricity prices, and tax rates)

 

[JamesT]

Except they don’t. Read the Autotrader report we are discussing.

Is there actually a link to the report, rather than news summaries of it?
From the description they've merely taken the arithmetic average of listings and split between EV and not. So if there are some very expensive petrol cars that will drag the average up, even though what most people will buy may be cheaper.

 

[Noddy]

Is there actually a link to the report, rather than news summaries of it?

New electric cars now cheaper than petrol on average for the first time says Autotrader

New electric vehicles (EVs) are now, on average, cheaper to buy than petrol models on for the first time, according to the latest data from Autotrader, the UK’s biggest automotive marketplace. Based on advertised prices on Autotrader after discounts, the average price of a new EV has now undercut that of a petrol car across the retail market, driven by government grants and sustained manufacturer discounting that continue to improve affordability for new cars.

The impact of this pricing trend has become more pronounced in April so far, with the average new electric car now priced at £42,620 compared with £43,405 for a new petrol model — a £785 difference in favour of electric.

From the description they've merely taken the arithmetic average of listings and split between EV and not. So if there are some very expensive petrol cars that will drag the average up, even though what most people will buy may be cheaper.

The point is this is the first time this has happened according to Autotrader data. It’s possible that new petrol cars are simply become more expensive faster than new EVs, but either way in comparison EVs are cheaper than Petrol on average for the first time in their data.

 

[miami]

Except they don’t. Read the Autotrader report we are discussing.

That's talking about new cars. Vast majority of cars which are sold are not new cars, about 80% are second hand -- https://www.webuyanycar.com/about-us/press-centre/car-market-statistics/

7.8% of cars for sale on autotrader are electric.

50% of those are under 15k. I.e 50% of second hand cars sold in the UK are under 15k (autotrader lists new cars too so in practice it's going to be more than 50%)

Of cars under 15k on autotrader today, 3.6% are electric

Maybe in 5 years time electric will have filtered through so there's a decent selection in the mid-range.

On the assumption that almost all used cars are normal people buying cars (rather than fleet), and fleet is entirely new cars, that would put private new cars at 720k, and private second hand cars at 7,800k, or over 90% of sales being second hand.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's talking about new cars. Vast majority of cars which are sold are not new cars, about 80% are second hand -- https://www.webuyanycar.com/about-us/press-centre/car-market-statistics/

7.8% of cars for sale on autotrader are electric.

50% of those are under 15k. I.e 50% of second hand cars sold in the UK are under 15k (autotrader lists new cars too so in practice it's going to be more than 50%)

Of cars under 15k on autotrader today, 3.6% are electric

Maybe in 5 years time electric will have filtered through so there's a decent selection in the mid-range.

On the assumption that almost all used cars are normal people buying cars (rather than fleet), and fleet is entirely new cars, that would put private new cars at 720k, and private second hand cars at 7,800k, or over 90% of sales being second hand.

Other statistical examples are available.

For example: VW

Taking a sample of VW ID3s and VW Golfs, essentially the same group of car but one electric, one petrol / diesel. Searching Autotrader nationwide for each type, registered 2022, 20k-30k miles, Automatic gearbox, almost all the ID3s (57 available) are in the range £12-14k, all the Golfs (72 available) in the range £16-20k.

So on that example (which I plucked out of the air), mid range second hand EVs are roughly 25% cheaper to buy than their ICE equivalents. So cheaper to buy, much cheaper to run.

 

[jon0844]

I posted a video of someone buying a £600 EV, which is of course rather extreme, but cheap EVs are now very much a thing around the £1000-2000 mark that I assume is at the lower end of the scale. I'm pretty certain that people on here talking about a small city car for doing low mileage (5000 miles per year or less) aren't buying cars for £200-1000 as they're almost certainly going to have hefty bills to pay after a while.

I hate the look of early Nissan Leafs, but that's me, and there are some absolute bargains out there which are fine for most daily commutes, shopping trips, school runs etc. They've aged pretty well with relatively few things to go wrong, and even the batteries are doing better than anyone expected them to given their lack of thermal management. Because the car was so common, there are stacks of places to get batteries reconditioned or even replaced for larger capacity ones to almost make the car as good as new.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Other statistical examples are available.

For example: VW

Taking a sample of VW ID3s and VW Golfs, essentially the same group of car but one electric, one petrol / diesel. Searching Autotrader nationwide for each type, registered 2022, 20k-30k miles, Automatic gearbox, almost all the ID3s (57 available) are in the range £12-14k, all the Golfs (72 available) in the range £16-20k.

So on that example (which I plucked out of the air), mid range second hand EVs are roughly 25% cheaper to buy than their ICE equivalents. So cheaper to buy, much cheaper to run.

Now that is promising for me when my purchase of a 10-15 year old car comes up eventually.

But that means the VW ID3 has depreciated faster than the VW Golf, not a nice situation for buyers of new BEVs back in 2022.
Not my problem though !.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2026 ==

I posted a video of someone buying a £600 EV, which is of course rather extreme, but cheap EVs are now very much a thing around the £1000-2000 mark that I assume is at the lower end of the scale. I'm pretty certain that people on here talking about a small city car for doing low mileage (5000 miles per year or less) aren't buying cars for £200-1000 as they're almost certainly going to have hefty bills to pay after a while.

I hate the look of early Nissan Leafs, but that's me, and there are some absolute bargains out there which are fine for most daily commutes, shopping trips, school runs etc. They've aged pretty well with relatively few things to go wrong, and even the batteries are doing better than anyone expected them to given their lack of thermal management. Because the car was so common, there are stacks of places to get batteries reconditioned or even replaced for larger capacity ones to almost make the car as good as new.

For me I need a second hand car that is good for some city (I live in London) but I also need range for the actually more essential trips.

Or perhaps I would have an old BEV for town but hire for my longer trips.

 

[Bald Rick]

But that means the VW ID3 has depreciated faster than the VW Golf, not a nice situation for buyers of new BEVs back in 2022.

Yep those leasing companies have taken quite a haircut on some EV deals they did.

 

[Bikeman78]

Or you both happen to live in areas that have disproportionately large numbers of EV owners?

From my observations, Cardiff is still way behind leafy Sussex in terms of the number of electric vehicles. There's even kerbside chargers on Cambridge Road in Horsham. One thing that is the same in both places is the appalling state of the roads. In fact, I think Horsham is worse.

 

[Noddy]

That's talking about new cars. Vast majority of cars which are sold are not new cars, about 80% are second hand -- https://www.webuyanycar.com/about-us/press-centre/car-market-statistics/

I was quoting this bit in my bold:

Only if the price is right, and electric cars still cost far more than petrol cars, especially for below-average mileage users, in the new car category, the mid-range second hand car category, and the low cost second hand car category (which doesn't exist for electric)

See post 6635. I’ve added an underlined bit now.

 

[The Ham]

Of cars under 15k on autotrader today, 3.6% are electric

Given that's likely to be the percentage of the national fleet from a few years ago (current national fleet has EV's at 5.5%) I'm not surprised at that percentage.

(Very few of those cars are going to be newer than 2024 - in fact, less than 1.5% of those cars for sale)

 

[E27007]

NEW ZEV casrs cheaper than NEW IcE cars (on average).

Question 1}
Is the ZEV market following the economic theory of pricing by supply and demand?
Answer:
If supply greater than demand in the market, the price and /or supply of ZEVs in the market will lower towards an equilibrium between supply and demand.
However when the supply volume of ZEVs is subject to an external factor, the ZEV mandate, a mandate which year on year increases supply in significant increments, then pricing will be complex and even erratic.

 

[The Ham]

However when the supply volume of ZEVs is subject to an external factor, the ZEV mandate, a mandate which year on year increases supply in significant increments, then pricing will be complex and even erratic.

If that is the reason why EV's are cheaper on average, then arguably is doing it's job of encouraging the shift to EV's.

Even if carbon emissions are not of concern, then the improvement to air quality (and therefore quality of heath and life to millions of people) is probably enough of a reason to encourage the shift to EV's.

Likewise, breaking the cost to households to the erratic oil and gas markets could be a good reason for a shift away from ICE vehicles.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If that is the reason why EV's are cheaper on average, then arguably is doing it's job of encouraging the shift to EV's.

Even if carbon emissions are not of concern, then the improvement to air quality (and therefore quality of heath and life to millions of people) is probably enough of a reason to encourage the shift to EV's.

Likewise, breaking the cost to households to the erratic oil and gas markets could be a good reason for a shift away from ICE vehicles.

These levers will have to be paid for one day. Probably by all of us.

On balance I would expect a BEV (battery electric vehicle) to be cheaper to buy and look after than an ICE (internal combustion engine). The only reason for a bigger cost is if battery technology were to not come down in price. I also assume the higher cost of a BEV has been because of development costs and start up costs of manufacturing/assembly-lines.

One cost to bear in mind is a cost on usage. There was always going to be a tax for BEVs. There has to be as a huge amount of revenue comes to the government from ICEs in the form of road tax and fuel tax. It has been mentioned up thread anyway but I just remind here.

One think I can see for the future is a road pricing model or just huge road tax for BEVs but also applied to ICE to further price ICEs off the roads. That will perhaps happen as ICE users become a minority. Then again older vehicles (40 years plus) are currently exempt from road tax - if they form a small enough minority then the government will not bother with the potential tax revenue from them.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sainsbury's is 72p/kWh

A BYD Seal has a 82.5 KWH battery - £60 ish to charge

My BMW has a 50 litre tank and has a 3.0L engine

I'll get 350-400 miles real world range, more if motorway miles

Seems like the running costs are very similar?
My car slightly more to fill at current prices but will get slightly more range.

Surely a more economical 320i will be cheaper to run?

 

[Mawkie]

Sainsbury's is 72p/kWh

A BYD Seal has a 82.5 KWH battery - £60 ish to charge

My BMW has a 50 litre tank and has a 3.0L engine

I'll get 350-400 miles real world range, more if motorway miles

Seems like the running costs are very similar?
My car slightly more to fill at current prices but will get slightly more range.

Surely a more economical 320i will be cheaper to run?

Yes, but as you've been told repeatedly, home charging can be 7p/kWh or less. Without a special tariff, probably 27p kWh.

Tesla Supercharging is 21/41p.

Eon public charging near me is 40p kWh.

So charging at the most expensive for me, who has never charged at home, is half the price of fossil fuels - can you imagine the queues if a petrol station was charging 90p a litre?

Nobody should be using Sainsbury's, or horror of all horrors, Shell/BP for all their charging.

However, if you charge 90% of the time at home, then the occasional top up at 70p isn't that bad in the big scheme of things.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, but as you've been told repeatedly, home charging can be 7p/kWh or less. Without a special tariff, probably 27p kWh.

Tesla Supercharging is 21/41p.

Eon public charging near me is 40p kWh.

So charging at the most expensive for me, who has never charged at home, is half the price of fossil fuels - can you imagine the queues if a petrol station was charging 90p a litre?

Nobody should be using Sainsbury's, or horror of all horrors, Shell/BP for all their charging.

However, if you charge 90% of the time at home, then the occasional top up at 70p isn't that bad in the big scheme of things.

One of the arguments people make is about "destination charging" and charging whilst shopping at Sainsbury's is a reasonable thing to do.
I don't have an EV or access to home charging easily (without chucking an extension lead over my garden fence)

I thought it would be a typical cost not being a motorway service station - Sainsbury's petrol station is one of the cheapest places to refuel

How is anyone like me expected to switch when the purchase prices are high and so are the running costs?

 

[Mawkie]

How is anyone like me expected to switch when the purchase prices are high and so are the running costs?

How is anyone expected to debate with you when you endlessly peddle untruths?

Charging doesn't have to be expensive, you've chosen one of the most expensive operators. I've given you three examples (off the top of my head, without even researching a little) that are half that!

We've discussed the cost of vehicles extensively on here, including posts just yesterday.

Used Nissan Leafs are £1500.

Kia Neros are £6k.

Teslas are £10k.

A brand new Tesla is currently £299 a month on their own website.

I think at this point you're just trolling to be honest.

 

[Meole]

You can leave a petrol car sitting for say a month whilst away on holiday, a BEV needs regular topping up and cannot be left.

 

[N1]

You can leave a petrol car sitting for say a month whilst away on holiday, a BEV needs regular topping up and cannot be left.

Completely untrue, where have you come up with that?

 

[thejuggler]

You can leave a petrol car sitting for say a month whilst away on holiday, a BEV needs regular topping up and cannot be left.

True to an extent, but leave a modern ICE vehicle for a month and there is a high chance the battery won't have enough power to start it.

During the first covid lock down my car didn't move for a few weeks and when I had to start it it was very sluggish. Another couple of days and it wouldn't have started.

 

[Peter Sarf]

How is anyone expected to debate with you when you endlessly peddle untruths?

Charging doesn't have to be expensive, you've chosen one of the most expensive operators. I've given you three examples (off the top of my head, without even researching a little) that are half that!

We've discussed the cost of vehicles extensively on here, including posts just yesterday.

Used Nissan Leafs are £1500.

Kia Neros are £6k.

Teslas are £10k.

A brand new Tesla is currently £299 a month on their own website.

I think at this point you're just trolling to be honest.

I think the danger is that quite a few people will see the charging costs at Sainsburys when they visit for their shopping and make the assumption that the normal cost of charging is around what they see there.

Same for other more expensive charging areas - lets face it logic would suggest that the more convenient or under-ones-nose the chargers are then the more expensive they can get away with.

It takes a time to research properly. I do make an effort to check prices of all sorts of things. Family get infuriated when I say I am not sure something is cheaper until I check the price per kilogram or per litre. They genuinely do not have time to think and will buy something cheaper if they cannot/fail-to judge it to be smaller. They have not got time to consider things like Easter Eggs are cheap at the moment (no surprise there) BUT, per kilo, a bar of normal chocolate is still cheaper.

It does not matter for many EV owners what it costs to charge because I expect many new car buyers are not really bothered about the cost as long as someone tells them they have saved X amount on the price (even if it could be cheaper elsewhere). They want a new car. Some will shop around for charging and others will just not care. I also think it will be interesting to see how EV take up changes once the market is saturated for people who have a driveway.

Poorer people * are less likely to have a driveway. They are less likely to buy a new car. So it will be interesting to see if there is a reluctance to buy second hand EVs just because the relevant demographic cannot charge at domestic rates.

* = It is a generalisation to say poorer people live in terraced houses and flats so have no driveway for off street charging but it still indicates something.

I would love to have access to charging at domestic rates and I wait to see if other charging locations get cheaper as the market gets flooded with charger locations. I will probably be one of those charging by running an extension lead across the pavement - as will many of a certain demographic.

 

[Sun Chariot]

A question to those of you who have insight on ICE-to-EV transition in other countries or regions, ideally those with population density-variations (city + outer-urban + rural) and travel needs as UK's motorists:

1) what were their perceived blockers?
2) how were those blockers / constraints overcome?
3) roughly how much for: a) initial purchase of a C- or D-segment vehicle and b) typical public-use charging costs?

I ask because, when my wife and I were in Manhattan 18 months ago, the number of EVs Midtown and Downtown was far lower than I'd anticipated. ICE still ruled the day.

 

[Noddy]

A question to those of you who have insight on ICE-to-EV transition in other countries or regions, ideally those with population density-variations (city + outer-urban + rural) and travel needs as UK's motorists:

1) what were their perceived blockers?
2) how were those blockers / constraints overcome?
3) roughly how much for: a) initial purchase of a C- or D-segment vehicle and b) typical public-use charging costs?

I ask because, when my wife and I were in Manhattan 18 months ago, the number of EVs Midtown and Downtown was far lower than I'd anticipated. ICE still ruled the day.

Not in direct answer to your specific questions in relation to your last point (US EV sales) you have to remember the US is well behind most western (and some non-western) countries in terms of EV sales as a percentage of the total. This graph (which also includes PHEVs) from Our World in Data illustrates this:



Link to the report the graph is taken from is here: https://ourworldindata.org/electric-car-sales

 

[Sun Chariot]

Great stuff, thanks @Noddy
Norway's pole-position doesn't surprise me; latter November 2025 my wife and I were in 'n' around Tromso (above Arctic Circle) - EV use was widespread, moreso than ICE.