Does the 16th April Manchester dewirement incident demonstrate the need for more bi-mode trains?

[saismee]

Moderator note: Split from

Major disruption to / from Manchester Piccadilly expected until the end of the day - 16th April 2026

See; https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/manchester-piccadilly-20260416/ Damage to the overhead electric wires at Manchester Piccadilly means that some lines are blocked. As a result, trains running to / from this station may be cancelled or severely delayed by up to 60 minutes...

www.railforums.co.uk

The OLE here is very old. I believe many of the wire runs here are DC conversion, so the original wires from the 1950s. All wires are fixed-termination, which is a system no longer used. This failure might highlight the vulnerability of extremely old OLE (if it is an age related failure). Not of OLE in general. I don’t think this should be used as evidence against new electrification.

It should be used as evidence for bi-mode trains! Very versatile in the event of power failures or dewirements, once it has been cleared of the line of course. The Pendolino would've been clear of the line much quicker if it had diesel/battery backups.

 

[185143]

It should be used as evidence for bi-mode trains! Very versatile in the event of power failures or dewirements, once it has been cleared of the line of course. The Pendolino would've been clear of the line much quicker if it had diesel/battery backups.

There's probably a good few hundred people who spent the night on either an Azuma or Hull Trains 802/3 that would argue against you there!

 

[voyagerdude220]

The Pendolino would've been clear of the line much quicker if it had diesel/battery backups.

Are you sure about that? I'm guessing there would still need to be some work carried out to de tangle the Pendolino's Pantograph and free it from the wires.

 

[saismee]

Are you sure about that? I'm guessing there would still need to be some work carried out to de tangle the Pendolino's Pantograph and free it from the wires.

They would need to ground the OHLE and ensure it won't come down further, but it wouldn't need sourcing of locomotives from other companies. Depends on the situation.

 

[voyagerdude220]

They would need to ground the OHLE and ensure it won't come down further, but it wouldn't need sourcing of locomotives from other companies. Depends on the situation.

Fair enough.

 

[blimmo]

It should be used as evidence for bi-mode trains! Very versatile in the event of power failures or dewirements, once it has been cleared of the line of course. The Pendolino would've been clear of the line much quicker if it had diesel/battery backups.

I'm not sure about that. Carrying around your own power plant for the odd time you'll need to use it in disruption isn't exactly efficient.

 

[saismee]

I'm not sure about that. Carrying around your own power plant for the odd time you'll need to use it in disruption isn't exactly efficient.

An emergency battery to limp to a platform would be enough. I'm sure it wouldn't add too much weight.

 

[mmh]

I'm not sure about that. Carrying around your own power plant for the odd time you'll need to use it in disruption isn't exactly efficient.

Quite. The current trend on the forum to suggest batteries for everything ignores that (and all the other never addressed issues with batteries)

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An emergency battery to limp to a platform would be enough. I'm sure it wouldn't add too much weight.

And predictably, here's the battery "solution"!

 

[saismee]

Quite. The current trend on the forum to suggest batteries for everything ignores that (and all the other never addressed issues with batteries)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2026 ==


And predictably, here's the battery "solution"!

GWR 80xs have emergency engines, a battery seems more reasonable. Would likely still need detraining first though.

 

[Stephen42]

I'm not sure about that. Carrying around your own power plant for the odd time you'll need to use it in disruption isn't exactly efficient.

Having a back up generator in the basement is expensive and inefficient, done for the rare occasions the power goes out. Hospitals still have them as power loss is a foreseeable event and the consequences of no power can be fatal.

For trains the consequences are much lower, though disruption happens more frequently. Diesels add a lot more moving parts and fuel logistics, batteries avoid much of that. Batteries can distribute more power than a single engine can though have much lower range. Either way, the weight addition is small around 2% of a 5-car IET. The battery trial achieved a range of over 40 miles for that 2% and could possibly go for a smaller battery if only for disruptions. The energy from the backup power will be less efficient as well, but wouldn't be used often.

The slightly quicker and cheaper recovery, possibility to delay permanent repair until quieter times and other incident types could be worth more than those inefficiencies. Some of those might only be realised once every EMU in the area has fallback capability, but will need to start somewhere.

 

[The exile]

GWR 80xs have emergency engines, a battery seems more reasonable. Would likely still need detraining first though.

Not emergency engines - but ones used in service every day. Unless there are any diagrams for IETs that are restricted to London - Cardiff and Newbury for the whole day, then I suspect all GWR IET diagrams require diesel running daily.

 

[HSTEd]

A battery or generator aboard the train also keeps passengers comfortable and not panicking by ensuring the air con, toilets, lighting and power sockets continue to work - if there is a buffet it will also continue to work.

Which is why the "electric only" Class 801 has them.

I can't see a reason for a similar capability not to be provided on all new trains. Either a generator/prime mover or chunky traction battery.

EDIT: It would, as noted, also substantially ease the logistics of getting everything unblocked. Having every train capable of moving under its own power would remove the need to wait for freight locomotives/thunderbirds or mess around with universal couplings.

 

[deltic08]

There's probably a good few hundred people who spent the night on either an Azuma or Hull Trains 802/3 that would argue against you there!

Do you mean Lumo? Hull Trains operate bimodes to cover unelectrified line from ECML to Hull.

 

[saismee]

Not emergency engines - but ones used in service every day. Unless there are any diagrams for IETs that are restricted to London - Cardiff and Newbury for the whole day, then I suspect all GWR IET diagrams require diesel running daily.

Not sure where my other post went, it didn't seem to make the jump to this new thread. I was thinking of LNER 801s.

 

[35B]

A battery or generator aboard the train also keeps passengers comfortable and not panicking by ensuring the air con, toilets, lighting and power sockets continue to work - if there is a buffet it will also continue to work.

Which is why the "electric only" Class 801 has them.

I can't see a reason for a similar capability not to be provided on all new trains. Either a generator/prime mover or chunky traction battery.

EDIT: It would, as noted, also substantially ease the logistics of getting everything unblocked. Having every train capable of moving under its own power would remove the need to wait for freight locomotives/thunderbirds or mess around with universal couplings.

Except that when I was on an 801, and the GU needed to be used, the air conditioning was heavily reduced and the environment became very humid and warm very quickly, with only just enough air conditioning to stop the carriage steaming up. That was very late on a late September night.

 

[zwk500]

I can't see a reason for a similar capability not to be provided on all new trains. Either a generator/prime mover or chunky traction battery.

And of the two, a traction battery is by far the better answer.
- Elimination of diesel use (and associated logistics, environmental and safety concerns at depots),
- the ability to recapture energy,
- the ability to top up on the move,
- the easier ability to use a "blended" mode for evening out grid demand/better acceleration.
- reduction in particulate emissions at point of use
- ability to be charged from decarbonised power generation
etc,