Greens propose abolishing first class on ScotRail trains

[Bletchleyite]

If six first class seats (2+1) take the same space as eight standard class (2+2) then the required break even mark up is 33%, not 50%.

They don't as first class has more legroom. If you consider a Mk3 it was 76 Standard against 48 1st which is roughly 1.6, which is why this is the "classic" multiplier still used in much of Europe.

 

[Transilien]

They should allow railcards to be used in First Class. I would be more likely to use it then.

 

[The Ham]

As long as people are willing to pay the premium, then surely it's a form of taxation for those who can afford it and so the Greens should be in favour of it?

If it was causing issues then consider removing it. It's but even like it's significantly altering the carbon emissions of rail by providing it.

 

[yorksrob]

But equally due to floor space taken up, if you can't price it at at least 150% of the Standard fare you might as well get rid of it.

Maybe 130%

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==

As long as people are willing to pay the premium, then surely it's a form of taxation for those who can afford it and so the Greens should be in favour of it?

If it was causing issues then consider removing it. It's but even like it's significantly altering the carbon emissions of rail by providing it.

Certainly, south of the border, there's too much emphasis on making walk-on standard class a "premium product" unaffordable to the majority (see the perfidious LNER trial), whereas first should perform the function of extracting as much money as possible out of those who can pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe 130%

In terms of floorspace it's about 160%. Though that does assume you would fill all seats either way.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Crazy policy, I already avoid trains with no first class and drive instead unless I know for sure that standard will be quiet and calm.

Unfortunately there are so many selfish and disruptive people in society, many don't even realise that their behaviour is poor. First Class is no guarantee, but the odds of some comfort and peace are infinitely higher than standard, and if not, the chance of a partial refund or goodwill gesture is also higher.

It's not necessarily about having food and drink, a better seat - CrossCountry's "new" first class is absolutely abysmal compared to the old seating - but I would still pay the premium.

 

[Djgr]

As long as people are willing to pay the premium, then surely it's a form of taxation for those who can afford it and so the Greens should be in favour of it?

Maybe but that is hardly the complete argument if it means people are having to stand whilst there are empty seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==

Crazy policy, I already avoid trains with no first class and drive instead unless I know for sure that standard will be quiet and calm.

Unfortunately there are so many selfish and disruptive people in society, many don't even realise that their behaviour is poor. First Class is no guarantee, but the odds of some comfort and peace are infinitely higher than standard, and if not, the chance of a partial refund or goodwill gesture is also higher.

It's not necessarily about having food and drink, a better seat - CrossCountry's "new" first class is absolutely abysmal compared to the old seating - but I would still pay the premium.

I don't think government policy can and should be determined by the views of a single person.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe but that is hardly the complete argument if it means people are having to stand whilst there are empty seats.

It depends.

How often due it happen?

How many are standing vs the number of free seats?

How much extra money does the first class generate vs it not being there?

For example, if it only happens once or twice a day and there's only a few people standing and it generates more income, then it's worth keeping.

 

[paravostok]

It depends.

How often due it happen?

How many are standing vs the number of free seats?

How much extra money does the first class generate vs it not being there?

For example, if it only happens once or twice a day and there's only a few people standing and it generates more income, then it's worth keeping.

I see it regularly on the Xpress between Glasgow and Falkirk, and its honestly stupid there even is first class on a 55 minute journey in the first place, and the £5 onboard upgrade seems like a desperate way for them to try and recoup some losses from it always being empty, even if just by the fact it doesn't look empty.

 

[DarloRich]

Excellent plan - I am all for this. Should be rolled out country wide asap.

 

[VT 390]

They should allow railcards to be used in First Class. I would be more likely to use it then.

Many Railcards already give discount on either all or some first class fares.

 

[HighlandStorm]

Disagree with this idea - but accept there’s an argument to be made that first class is on the wrong trains on the wrong routes in some cases!

But on the Inter7city services and longer rural routes it makes sense. Provide good connectivity, a comfortable journey and a decent space to work, you get people out of cars in part because they can be productive during the journey.

Where first class is carrying air, then aggressively sell advances and / or really push the onboard upgrade. Someone upgrading after all frees up a standard class seat!

 

[kaysha]

The number of first class customers on the glasgow edinburgh service especially would have reduced a number of years ago when the scottish government decided to abolish first class for their staff travelling to meetings. I suspect a number of other companies have introduced similar cost cutting measures over the years

 

[yorksrob]

The number of first class customers on the glasgow edinburgh service especially would have reduced a number of years ago when the scottish government decided to abolish first class for their staff travelling to meetings. I suspect a number of other companies have introduced similar cost cutting measures over the years

First class ps probably better operated as a leisure premium nowadays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First class ps probably better operated as a leisure premium nowadays.

Agreed. It's about leisure travel and self-upgrading, not business travel.

 

[sh24]

It's really not Leisure Premium to/from London, at key times of day. Lots of people travelling for work.

 

[Clansman]

Deleted

 

[yorksrob]

It's really not Leisure Premium to/from London, at key times of day. Lots of people travelling for work.

Are there enough of them ? A lot of the pricing methodologies seems to be aimed at attracting these people - do they still exist ?

 

[Pigeon]

"Are you going to abolish first class?

"No, we're going to abolish second class"

Very Midland. I approve!

 

[sh24]

Are there enough of them ? A lot of the pricing methodologies seems to be aimed at attracting these people - do they still exist ?

On the trains I travel on, they exist. I'm one of them and see I quite a few others. Not in the numbers pre-Covid and travel patterns have changed too, more off peak travel as working from train is much more feasible and acceptable. And we will pay for the peace and quiet in First.

 

[Djgr]

It's really not Leisure Premium to/from London, at key times of day. Lots of people travelling for work.

Don't forget that we are talking about Scotland here, which is very different beast to London

 

[sh24]

Don't forget that we are talking about Scotland here, which is very different beast to London

Oh for sure, was drifting OT. I still think there is a role for First in Scotland though.

 

[Clansman]

The problem with first class is that ScotRail have not had a consistent offering that can rival LNER.

A look at LNER’s figures show passengers actively go for their services for internal journeys in both classes. The fact that first class on LNER is busy disproportionately to standard for internal Scottish journies regardless of which time of day this is shows it’s not merely down to peak timing but consumer habits.

I’m not sure abolishing first class on ScotRail intercity services is anything other than laying down the sword on the ability to compete and offer something worth upgrading for consistently (particularly when LNER price their first class the same as ScotRail in most cases when making journeys within Scotland). The demand is there, but the final product has lacked for some time. If LNER were to increase their services north of Edinburgh I’d bet a fair quid on there being more first class internal Scottish journeys being used on them compared to ScotRail services either side of it in the timetable.

 

[Noddy]

I’m somewhat skeptical of their claim that 98% of the first class seats are empty,

I am extremely sceptical of that too, it is certainly not my experience, including on the Edinburgh/Queen Street expresses.

Sadly the Greens generally (both sides of the border) are completely incompetent when it comes to looking at evidence and using evidence based policy (which is extremely sad to say for someone who supports a pro-environment agenda). They’ve produced the 98% figure (originally back in 2024 I believe) by comparing the total number of tickets sold by the total number of possible tickets that could be sold. But that ignores the fact that as soon as one first class ticket is bought (and that seat is taken) it removes other tickets from sale because they’re no longer available.

 

[HighlandStorm]

I took an afternoon E&G train from Glasgow Queen Street to Croy P&R this afternoon. As I was getting off at Croy I walked to the front coach (of 8), even so that coach was already notably busy. The guard had asked people to not put luggage on seats and plugged the first class upgrade over the PA three times by the time we'd boarded, left and exited the tunnel up from the station!

 

[Oxfordblues]

I think we should take anything the Green arty says seriously. Down here in Oxford there are 5 window-posters on our short street. All 5 proclaim "VOTE GREEN" so they are evidently a force to be reckoned with.

 

[yorksrob]

I think we should take anything the Green arty says seriously. Down here in Oxford there are 5 window-posters on our short street. All 5 proclaim "VOTE GREEN" so they are evidently a force to be reckoned with.

Sadly a separatist one, which is one reason why I won't vote for them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I really dont get it, if someone is willing to pay more to have nicer travelling environment then why not. If 1st on some routes is badly underused then reduce or remove it on a route by route basis, but to me it feels like a case of envy and/or race to the bottom.

I take it you've never been on a full and standing service when first has space then? (And of course if it wasnt first class it would have even more space). Not travelled on Scotrail before but defo have had the above on XC services, and short formed GWR services.

I'm not sure about getting rid of it entirely, but absolutely there needs to be a conversation about the provision of it when it reduces standard class capacity / makes standard class journeys less comfortable / operators already are regularly short forming services.

 

[The Ham]

I take it you've never been on a full and standing service when first has space then? (And of course if it wasnt first class it would have even more space). Not travelled on Scotrail before but defo have had the above on XC services, and short formed GWR services.

I'm not sure about getting rid of it entirely, but absolutely there needs to be a conversation about the provision of it when it reduces standard class capacity / makes standard class journeys less comfortable / operators already are regularly short forming services.

I've been in first class on XC service when standard was horrific (and it was a pair of units and both were in use). The bottom line would be that the overall impact would be limited.

For example, in terms of extra seats on a class 220 (so would have the largest impact in percentage terms) it's the difference between 200 and 216 seats.

If you're taking about a train with all seats occupied and 30 people standing per coach. That would "improve" to 16 people standing per carriage (maybe 14 depending on how busy first class was). That's still too many to walk through the train (so almost no one is able to access catering and it's going to be difficult to access the loos).

Alternatively if we cities upgrade to a 5 coach 221 then even with first class still in place that would improve to just 6 per carriage standing (almost entirely by the doors) and so a trolley stood lieu be able to get through to passengers at their seats.

 

[AlterEgo]

They should allow railcards to be used in First Class. I would be more likely to use it then.

They do. Just not ones aimed at younger people or Family and Friends.