Greens propose abolishing first class on ScotRail trains

[DanielCF]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere - but I was reading the Scottish Greens manifesto, and something I’ve not seen reported elsewhere is that they plan to abolish first class on all ScotRail services.

I’m somewhat skeptical of their claim that 98% of the first class seats are empty, but if the government are happy to take the revenue hit I think it makes sense. Most of Scotrail’s services are short commuter ones and first class doesn’t have much advantages over regular beyond slightly nicer seating. You don’t get proper hot food on any Scotrail trains, and the only lounge is at Aberdeen.

Would be interested to hear from those who have actually travelled in Scotrail’s first class though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I'd keep it on I7C services and possibly on scenic routes so you can extract more revenue from tourists for basically old rope, but it's pointless on commuter type services e.g. Edinburgh-Glasgow, I'd agree.

 

[SoloSR334022]

On the Edinburgh-Glasgow trains it makes sense, I was extremely surprised when I saw the trolley come through on one of those services! But I would say it would nice if the were more options for food on the Inter7City routes, it's quite bare at the moment.

 

[Sealink]

It's quite nice on long distance journeys.

I wonder how many people pay in advance, when the onboard upgrade is only £5 on "eXpress" services and £15 on InterCity.

The last time I was offered it onboard, was on a Class 170 from Glasgow to Inverness, with no catering. Kept my money!

 

[RiverDon]

Morning and afternoon services to/from Inverness are absolutely packed in first in the summer, especially with Americans. You could have 5 coaches of first class for these and still be turning them away. I've heard stories from conductors about massive arguments involving American tourists at Inverness when there are no seats left in first class and standard is also full & standing.

There are a few Aberdeen to/from Edinburgh/Glasgow Intercity services that load really well in first class too but generally they are a bit quieter. Lots of people use the £15 upgrade. I get the impression that a lot of people use it on these services just as way of guaranteeing a seat. It's a bit dire on the 170s with the curtains hanging off and broken recline on the seats but on HSTs it is well worth it. I have no experience of first class on the E&G services but I see the Intercity ones every day.

If anything I would bin first class on the 170s but greatly enhance service on HSTs to be more on par with LNER. A dedicated trolley/host and hot food. The current biscuits and water (often sans biscuits) service is a bit stingy. The lounge at Aberdeen is really nice btw.

 

[bramling]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere - but I was reading the Scottish Greens manifesto, and something I’ve not seen reported elsewhere is that they plan to abolish first class on all ScotRail services.

I’m somewhat skeptical of their claim that 98% of the first class seats are empty, but if the government are happy to take the revenue hit I think it makes sense. Most of Scotrail’s services are short commuter ones and first class doesn’t have much advantages over regular beyond slightly nicer seating. You don’t get proper hot food on any Scotrail trains, and the only lounge is at Aberdeen.

Would be interested to hear from those who have actually travelled in Scotrail’s first class though.

This is all symptomatic of the way politics in this country now seems to be based on ideology as opposed to practicality.

I dont believe the figure about 98% of seats being empty. Personally I’m a bit agnostic about first - it does seem to be reaching the point in certain areas where it creates more issues than it solves (for example the way AWC have just one half carriage at times, or the way it contributes to overcrowding on Voyagers).

But I’m not sure this is the political motivation here, it feels like another example of “the population can’t have anything nice”, which seems to be the toxic attitude which pervades British politics on all sides of the spectrum at the moment. So because of this I’m sceptical. It’s regrettable we can’t have more of what we saw in the 90s on operators like Chiltern or Connex where the objective seems to have been to specify a decent train all-round, which made first somewhat genuinely superfluous.

I feel sorry for younger people that the future seems to be “stuff you, you can’t have something”, rather than trying to make genuine improvements. No wonder there’s so much cynicism.

 

[mike57]

I really dont get it, if someone is willing to pay more to have nicer travelling environment then why not. If 1st on some routes is badly underused then reduce or remove it on a route by route basis, but to me it feels like a case of envy and/or race to the bottom.

 

[Carlisle]

As a longer term solution shouldn’t all trains not offering any sort of complimentary drinks or refreshments in First either be rebranded to Standard Premium or abolished?

 

[RiverDon]

As things stand at the moment they're keeping first class on the class 222s when they are refurbished. There will be 20 seats and a wheelchair space, so not much (12 less than an HST).

Of course that could all change if the Greens get into government(!).

 

[sh24]

First is important on Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness. Enough business and tourist traffic for it to make sense. The issue is that almost a whole carriage of First on the HST's is a massive over provision so they look like part of a fresh air express.

I can't really see any requirement on other routes and I say that as someone who normally books First for anything over an hour.

The provision or not of refreshments seems umimportant. People buy First for space, peace and quiet primarily.

 

[RiverDon]

The issue is that almost a whole carriage of First on the HST's is a massive over provision so they look like part of a fresh air express.

Go and watch the 13:32 Edinburgh to Inverness leave Waverley and try repeating that with a straight face!

 

[sh24]

Fair point - I should have said "on many services..."

Go and watch the 13:32 Edinburgh to Inverness leave Waverley and try repeating that with a straight face

 

[Tetchytyke]

I dont believe the figure about 98% of seats being empty.

Depends, as always, as to which trains you look at.

I've done the Glasgow-Edinburgh shuttle a fair few times over the years as part of a First Class Advance ticket connecting off LNER. Even back when it was 170s, it was rare that I had more than one other person sharing the first class cabin with me. It's even more noticeable on the 385s, especially as the complimentary catering offer on the shuttle has never returned after Covid.

Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness probably merits the retention of first class. But otherwise, bin it off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness probably merits the retention of first class. But otherwise, bin it off.

I think any new trains for the West Highland should have it too - it's potential money for old rope from the tourists (noting that, as ScotRail discovered, a 153 with Richmond seating in a 2+2 layout does not constitute first class). But otherwise I'd agree - I7C routes only.

 

[yorksrob]

I think I'd keep it on I7C services and possibly on scenic routes so you can extract more revenue from tourists for basically old rope, but it's pointless on commuter type services e.g. Edinburgh-Glasgow, I'd agree.

My general view on first class is that if its "always empty", the product isn't being priced correctly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My general view on first class is that if its "always empty", the product isn't being priced correctly.

But equally due to floor space taken up, if you can't price it at at least 150% of the Standard fare you might as well get rid of it.

 

[Sorcerer]

I sort of agree to be honest. If it's a commuter-based route then it really doesn't need a first class product. I think a good benchmark would be if we had clearly defined services so that only ones of a certain type have them. If it's an intercity or interregional service then I would give them first class. Regional express I would say depends. TPE routes should certainly retain them. But for most Scotrail services aside from Inter7City I don't see much point.

 

[RiverDon]

Scotrail only has first class on the E&G and intercity (Inverness-Aberdeen-Edinburgh-Glasgow) services. There is a difference between the train type having the first class compartment and the service being advertised as having first class. Although some of the local routes e.g. Aberdeen to Inverurie or Dunblane to Edinburgh use 170s or 385s which have the first class compartments they aren't actually first class and anyone can sit in there without paying any extra fee. You can have one of the 170s without a first class bit on an intercity service which is booked to have first class or a first class fitted 170 on a Dundee to Queen Street run that isn't booked to have first class. So it's not the massive issue that the Greens are making out. It's only a minority of services across the whole operation.

 

[D1511]

The old ScotRail push/pull sets in the 80s had a MK3 composite which seemed to provide a sensible proportion of first class seating. Whatever happened to those?

 

[CW2]

But equally due to floor space taken up, if you can't price it at at least 150% of the Standard fare you might as well get rid of it.

If six first class seats (2+1) take the same space as eight standard class (2+2) then the required break even mark up is 33%, not 50%.

 

[Falcon1200]

I’m somewhat skeptical of their claim that 98% of the first class seats are empty

I am extremely sceptical of that too, it is certainly not my experience, including on the Edinburgh/Queen Street expresses.

Most of Scotrail’s services are short commuter ones

Most of Scotrail's services do not have First Class! And it can be justified on those few that do, IMHO.

 

[mmh]

If six first class seats (2+1) take the same space as eight standard class (2+2) then the required break even mark up is 33%, not 50%.

But they don't, as (in any decent layout) there are fewer rows as well as fewer across.

 

[Meole]

It doesn't say if this is revenue neutral.

 

[stevieinselby]

If six first class seats (2+1) take the same space as eight standard class (2+2) then the required break even mark up is 33%, not 50%.

That also assumes it has similar loadings. But if Standard is full and First is only half full then the break-even point moves further.

 

[CW2]

I think the only sound conclusion is that this is a populist pre-election proposal with little basis in solid factual evidence.

 

[Farigiraf]

1st class passengers subsidise the standard class passengers' low(ish) fares and the upkeep of the rail network. If capacity is an issue then you could always buy longer trains. Though I agree with above posters that on sub-1h commuter routes it's pointless.

I really don't see how this proposal will win any more votes than promising to actually improve and expand the rail network - it'll probably actually lose some votes.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I really don't see how this proposal will win any more votes than promising to actually improve and expand the rail network - it'll probably actually lose some votes

Realistically, it seems to be something deeply buried in the Green manifesto that only now we - and only we, not the general electorate of Scotland - have become aware of.

While I haven't been following the polls, my understanding is that there's no realistic chance of the Greens forming a majority single party government in Scotland. So a minor point in the manifesto of a party that will at best be a junior partner in a coalition probably isn't much to worry about.

 

[mmh]

"Are you going to abolish first class?

"No, we're going to abolish second class"

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As a longer term solution shouldn’t all trains not offering any sort of complimentary drinks or refreshments in First either be rebranded to Standard Premium or abolished?

That seems a very odd concept, the majority of trains across Europe don’t offer any complimentary catering in First Class, it’s the ones which do that are the odd ones out.

 

[43096]

That also assumes it has similar loadings. But if Standard is full and First is only half full then the break-even point moves further.

But that only applies if the capacity of the train is limited to the number of seats. So if standard is full, then any more standard passengers have to stand.