Steam turbine locomotives

[BR Traction]

Is it possible anywhere in the world to see a steam turbine locomotive working on a preserved heritage line or even on a main line?.

 

[Dave S 56F]

Is it possible anywhere in the world to see a steam turbine locomotive working on a preserved heritage line or even on a main line?.

Where is there one preserved not in the U.K. the last of such of these was princess 46202 anne which ended in severe rail disaster at Harrow and Wealdstone. I think doing my research there is one in Sweden.

 

[Gloster]

Is it possible anywhere in the world to see a steam turbine locomotive working on a preserved heritage line or even on a main line?.

The Oxelösund-Flen-Västmanlands Järnväg bought a 2-8-0 in in 1930 as M3t 71, which became Trafik AB Grängesberg-Oxelösunds Järnvägar (TGOJ) 71 the following year; this was more a formalisation of a loose working arrangement, rather than a full-scale takeover or amalgamation. Two more near-identical locos appeared in 1936 as TGOJ M3t 72 and 73. They worked in normal service until 1953, with a hiatus during World War II, but were then stored. These are the only locos in the world that had any more than a brief, largely experimental existence.

All three became museum locos in 1980 and I believe that all are now at the museum at Grängesberg, although 72 was at the national museum at Gävle. 71 has worked in preservation, but I doubt that any are in working order at the moment.

 

[Pigeon]

in the U.K. the last of such of these was princess 46202 anne which ended in severe rail disaster at Harrow and Wealdstone.

It had been converted back to a conventional reciprocating locomotive a few months before that.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

There are miniature versions although you have just missed this event

 

[Dave S 56F]

It had been converted back to a conventional reciprocating locomotive a few months before that.

Ah right I always forget that 46202 was rebuilt before the Harrow and Wealdstone smash a couple of months before then any how though my main point about what I wrote was that was our only contribution to a turbine motive loco.

 

[DelW]

Where is there one preserved not in the U.K. the last of such of these was princess 46202 anne which ended in severe rail disaster at Harrow and Wealdstone. I think doing my research there is one in Sweden.

Ah right I always forget that 46202 was rebuilt before the Harrow and Wealdstone smash a couple of months before then any how though my main point about what I wrote was that was our only contribution to a turbine motive loco.

46202 was only named Princess Anne when it was rebuilt with conventional motion in 1952. When it was service with turbine transmission (1935 - 1949) it was just called the Turbomotive. As Princess Anne it was indeed only in service for 8 weeks before being wrecked at Harrow and Wealdstone.

There had been other experiments with steam turbine locos in Britain in the 1910s and '20s, but mostly using electric drive. None of them was taken into railway ownership.

(Source: "The LMS Pacifics", J.W.P. Rowledge, David & Charles 1987)

 

[Harvester]

46202 was only named Princess Anne when it was rebuilt with conventional motion in 1952. When it was service with turbine transmission (1935 - 1949) it was just called the Turbomotive. As Princess Anne it was indeed only in service for 8 weeks before being wrecked at Harrow and Wealdstone.

Apart from footage of the ‘wreck’ at Harrow, photographs of 46202 in conventional rebuilt form seem to be quite rare. Apparently the engine was less seriously damaged in the crash than 46242, and could have been repaired at Crewe had approval been given.

 

[Rescars]

Apart from footage of the ‘wreck’ at Harrow, photographs of 46202 in conventional rebuilt form seem to be quite rare. Apparently the engine was less seriously damaged in the crash than 46242, and could have been repaired at Crewe had approval been given.

IIRC the loss of 46202 provided the opportunity for Riddles to fill a gap by constructing the Duke of Gloucester.

 

[Harvester]

IIRC the loss of 46202 provided the opportunity for Riddles to fill a gap by constructing the Duke of Gloucester.

Yes but what I was hinting at was the decision to scrap 46202 rather than the more seriously damaged 46242. The insurance pay out from a written off 46242 could have gone towards the replacement Pacific (71000), with the less damaged 46202 granted a repair.

 

[Rescars]

Yes but what I was hinting at was the decision to scrap 46202 rather than the more seriously damaged 46242. The insurance pay out from a written off 46242 could have gone towards the replacement Pacific (71000), with the less damaged 46202 granted a repair.

Others will know more, but wasn't BR self-insured, in which case little prospect of an insurance pay out as such? Just room for creative accounting.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Yes but what I was hinting at was the decision to scrap 46202 rather than the more seriously damaged 46242. The insurance pay out from a written off 46242 could have gone towards the replacement Pacific (71000), with the less damaged 46202 granted a repair.

I'm speculating here, but given that 46202 was already a rebuild from the turbine locomotive, might it be that it was already somewhat non-standard, and would have become even more so after repair and further rebuild? And while non-standard can be fun, it can also be expensive and/or a nuisance.

 

[Harvester]

I'm speculating here, but given that 46202 was already a rebuild from the turbine locomotive, might it be that it was already somewhat non-standard, and would have become even more so after repair and further rebuild? And while non-standard can be fun, it can also be expensive and/or a nuisance.

I think this was most likely the case, hence 46242 was rebuilt and 46202 written off and replaced. In fact BR really got two new locos in 71000 and the 46242 replacement. The latter was virtually a new engine carrying little from the original loco, akin to A3 Grand Parade‘s replacement after Castlecary.

 

[webbfan]

I'm speculating here, but given that 46202 was already a rebuild from the turbine locomotive, might it be that it was already somewhat non-standard, and would have become even more so after repair and further rebuild? And while non-standard can be fun, it can also be expensive and/or a nuisance.

Boiler insides and fittings were those of a Duchess but outside outline that of a Princess. So yes non-standard but composed of two standard classes. Perhaps the best engine of either. We can ignore any similarity to a King

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Others will know more, but wasn't BR self-insured, in which case little prospect of an insurance pay out as such? Just room for creative accounting.

That is correct, BR carried its own risks.

 

[Acathater]

I'm speculating here, but given that 46202 was already a rebuild from the turbine locomotive, might it be that it was already somewhat non-standard, and would have become even more so after repair and further rebuild? And while non-standard can be fun, it can also be expensive and/or a nuisance.

there's a post in this other forum from 23 November 2016 which may give the anser

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/50339-tmc-46202-princess-anne/page/2/

I just happened across this post, and I can add a little bit more information that came from one of the works managers when 46229 was repaired at Crewe in the early 80's, when a defect was found in one of the driving wheel spokes. He was full of anecdotes and this was one that was particularly interesting. When 46202 was rebuilt they used the spare Duchess front end. The early princess royals suffered badly from cracked frames between the inside and outside cylinders and it was the practice to change the front of the locomotive when a bad one came in to works simply by cutting the old one off and welding the repaired one on. Even though the Duchess design was more robust with the inside and outside cylinder castings overlapping, at some stage a spare was made for that class also, but it didn't see a lot of use, because the later engines didn't suffer serious frame cracks. My understanding is that a front end change occurred when extensive cylinder repairs were necessary, and if the engine concerned was the standard layout i.e. not one of the first five or the last two. After the Harrow accident 46242's front was basically beyond repair, so the front of 46202 was fitted to 46242 to get it back into service, and that's how it ended up with the non-utility frame at the front. This also effectively condemned 46202 because it wasn't worth building a new front for a one off engine. All the boilers involved in the Harrow accident were repaired and re-used, as had been mentioned the 40 element princess boiler for the turbine saw it's time out on 46208.