Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[DaveNewcastle]

Sorry but why are Northern (and other companies) deliberately putting RPIs after the ticket office rather than before? It seems to me they WANT to trap people? It's just as easy to have them gripping before the ticket office instead of after.

Because there are hundreds of persistent and regular fare dodgers?
I'd also guess that there's also a substantial number who could best be called 'opportunist' avoiders (ie they have no intention of avoiding the fare but if no one or no thing presents themselves as a ticket seller, then they don't mind walking away without paying).

The real skill comes in trying to determine who is the deliberate evader or 'opportunist' and who is the genuinely puzzled and confused passenger unable to see how, where or when they are supposed to pay their fare, or who genuinely thought that their ticket/pass was valid when it was not.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry but why are Northern (and other companies) deliberately putting RPIs after the ticket office rather than before? It seems to me they WANT to trap people? It's just as easy to have them gripping before the ticket office instead of after.

It is not entrapment.

Entrapment

n. in criminal law, the act of law enforcement officers or government agents inducing or encouraging a person to commit a crime when the potential criminal expresses a desire not to go ahead. The key to entrapment is whether the idea for the commission or encouragement of the criminal act originated with the police or government agents instead of with the "criminal." Entrapment, if proved, is a defense to a criminal prosecution. The accused often claims entrapment in so-called "stings" in which undercover agents buy or sell narcotics, prostitutes' services or arrange to purchase goods believed to be stolen. The factual question is: Would Johnny Begood have purchased the drugs if not pressed by the narc?

Putting people outside the gates is catching fare evaders (those people who play "ticket roulette"). It is not entrapment.

You didn't answer my question as to whether unmarked police cars are a form of entrapment. Clearly they are not, as they are there to catch people who do break the law, not to prevent the crime in the first place.

 

[Deerfold]

The real skill comes in trying to determine who is the deliberate evader or 'opportunist' and who is the genuinely puzzled and confused passenger unable to see how, where or when they are supposed to pay their fare, or who genuinely thought that their ticket/pass was valid when it was not.

Surely it's just as important to restrict the opportunities for this sort of evasion - which checking tickets before the ticket office would do/

 

[cuccir]

This situation has never happened to me personally, but before I joined the forum, I would have never expected to have to buy a ticket at the ticket office of my destination station if I had no opportunity to do so beforehand, for fear of prosecution. I would never intentionally fare evade, but I bet if a survey of rail travellers was done, a relatively large percentage wouldn't know of this requirement.

This is the same for me and I would expect most people. Now I'd know what to do. Previously, I would have considered no ticket office, no ticket machine, and no guard selling tickets, as failure to collect revenue on behalf of the operator.

As for the shop example - the major difference is that the till is the expected payment point, the expected point of revenue collection. Legally, I accept fully that there's no difference. But in people's everyday expectations of how they use the world, there's a massive difference.

Remember - most of the time, our actions are goverened by norms, not by consideration as to whether an act is legal or not. In transport environments, the norm is to expect to be asked for a fare up front, or whilst using the service. If the transport provider doesn't do this, its their fault not yours.

Now the law says different, which is both fine and understandable. But for many (most?) people, expected practice is the opposite.

 

[Greenback]

I expect more stations in the future will have barriers installed so it will be a bit difficult to board a train without a ticket.

More imoprtantly, barriers would ensure that there is an opportunity to buy a ticket. But what happens when the barriers are open?

Sorry but why are Northern (and other companies) deliberately putting RPIs after the ticket office rather than before? It seems to me they WANT to trap people? It's just as easy to have them gripping before the ticket office instead of after.

They are not trapping people as such. Logistically, it is probably easier to put checks at the main exits rather than on individual platforms.

Because there are hundreds of persistent and regular fare dodgers?
I'd also guess that there's also a substantial number who could best be called 'opportunist' avoiders (ie they have no intention of avoiding the fare but if no one or no thing presents themselves as a ticket seller, then they don't mind walking away without paying).

The real skill comes in trying to determine who is the deliberate evader or 'opportunist' and who is the genuinely puzzled and confused passenger unable to see how, where or when they are supposed to pay their fare, or who genuinely thought that their ticket/pass was valid when it was not.

Good points. On my first visit to the revamped Manchester Piccadilly I was puzzled and confused as to where everything was!

Surely it's just as important to restrict the opportunities for this sort of evasion - which checking tickets before the ticket office would do/

I agree in general, but the layout of Piccadilly does not really encourage that. What about barriers and an excess fares window, like in Reading?

 

[northwichcat]

Good points. On my first visit to the revamped Manchester Piccadilly I was puzzled and confused as to where everything was!

The problem then is how do you know who has travelled?

Has someone exiting the station with a newly printed Advance ticket just gone in to buy that ticket or have they also travelled today?

Has someone who has purchased from a retail outlet at the station also travelled or have to just gone in to buy something? (The same could apply to someone collecting printed timetables)

 

[rmt-driver]

I have sympathy for the OPs situation, I think rail ticketing in the Greater Manchester area is a joke quite frankly. Its an urban area with very limited ticket purchasing opportunities at certain locations. The queues to pay at Piccadilly can be absolutely horrendous with ticket inspectors who lack knowledge. I accept that the OP should have used the ticket office upon arrival, but that could have taken a considerable amount of time. I personally think Northern should be making it easier to pay instead, the conductors do try to collect all fares most of the time but it can be an impossible task with G4S not always present at Piccadilly to meet trains!!

Ticketing on NORTHERN on a whole is a complete joke !! it is ridiculous they don't provide ticket machines or at least PERTIS machines on there stations. If I tried to buy a ticket on the station and couldn't , was willing to buy on the train but didn't get the chance (sorry why should I go walking through a long train to try and buy a ticket just because they can't provide adequate facilities at the station) and then got to my destination, It would not even cross my mind togo and queue at the ticket office to buy the ticket.

Northern rail's failings are huge in so many ways and it's innocent passengers like kitty who get in trouble for them! They are a joke of a sham of a company.

On another note why didn't the inspector just ask for the £20 PF? (this question applies to lilykitten's topic)

 

[snail]

You could claim it isn't practical to queue for 5-10 minutes at Piccadilly when you are already late.

That's being generous given the size of the queues at the Piccadilly ticket office! As that is the station that generated this tangent, I think it is worth saying that the 'travel centre' is very much set up for people leaving the station, not issuing excess/unpaid fares for those arriving. If the opportunity to pay was easier (e.g. something nearer the platforms), more may think of doing it.

I've just had another thought as well about the checking of tickets at the concourse exit (which I will also post on the other thread). It's fully open access, so you don't need a ticket. How do the RPIs know you have got off a train? You may be cutting through from the Metrolink/taxi area, or have simply been waving someone off at one of the platforms.

 

[Capybara]

Do you know what? I committed an offence at the weekend as I travelled without paying. I hate travelling without a ticket but Eaglescliffe doesn’t have a machine. I got on the train which was full and standing (it was match day and there were also a lot of people off to the seaside) and prepared to pay the guard. However the guard made no attempt to collect fares, retreating to the rear cab as soon as the train was away and only emerging again at Thornaby to do the doors, etc. When I arrived in Middlesbrough there was a queue at the ticket office (none of whom had just arrived on the train I was travelling on) and, of course, the machine wasn’t going to sell me a day return from Eaglescliffe to Middlesbrough which was what I wanted so I simply continued on my way just like everyone else who had got on at Eaglescliffe and Thornaby and, presumably, the stations preceding them. On the way back I purchased a Middlesbrough to Eaglescliffe single from the machine so I owe Northern 30p. Once again the train was full (though not as full as before) and once again there was no attempt to check tickets or collect fares. This is not the first time I have seen guards make no attempt to collect fares on this route – it happens whenever the train is full. I can only assume they are instructed to do this and, given that they don’t (or are unable to) put on longer trains for busier services, I assume the loss of fares is built into their business plan and it is cheaper to not collect than it is to provide a service where fares can be collected. Similarly I assume that they have decided that it is not worth them putting a machine on Eaglescliffe station. So while I hate travelling without a ticket and will always make every effort to buy one, that 30p that I owe Northern (who, incidentally could also not provide me with a seat) is not exactly keeping me awake at night.

 

[northwichcat]

On another note why didn't the inspector just ask for the £20 PF?

Because Northern don't have a Penalty Fares policy. Anyway, a Penalty Fare is a fine for not paying if you pay a Penalty Fare you would still have to pay the original fare you should have paid.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Why not inform people that they are obliged to buy a ticket AFTER they have left the train if they have not got one before?
A straw poll of normals in the office (16 of them) and ONE of them knew you could buy a ticket at destination and were concerned that they could be "fined" as a result of, as they thought, not being able to purchase a ticket. (all but two knew you should not board without a ticket at manned stations because of the "criminal record" posters)

Even the NRE website just says :-

Where can I buy tickets?

Online - National Rail Enquiries do not currently sell tickets but you can purchase them from one of the Ticket Retailers shown after you have selected your ticket in our Journey Planner.
Over the phone, using one of the numbers shown in our Train Company pages
At a station Ticket Office - check our Station Information pages to find which stations have one, and what the opening hours are. Various forms of payment are accepted.
Using a 'self-service' ticket machine available at many stations.

Rail appointed travel agents are complementary to ticket office at stations and Train Company telesales service, and the majority provide a comprehensive travel service. Appointed travel agents can make reservations and issue tickets.

If there are no ticket purchasing facilities at the station (such as a booking office or a ticket machine, or they are closed/out of service), you may be able to buy your ticket on board the train.

Now, from the final paragraph, most reasonable people would not infer that buying on arrival was an option. Using the term "the station" is obviously referring to the departure station.

As I said in a previous post a simple "Tickets must be purchased at the arrival station if there has not been an opportunity to purchase before" would be enough, both added to the above and on the posters.
It may not technically be entrapment as some have pointed out, but it sure seems like it to me and many of the people I questioned. An attempt to trick ordinary travellers into unknowingly committing a criminal act, not to catch serial offenders at all.

 

[talltim]

It is not entrapment.



Putting people outside the gates is catching fare evaders (those people who play "ticket roulette"). It is not entrapment.

You didn't answer my question as to whether unmarked police cars are a form of entrapment. Clearly they are not, as they are there to catch people who do break the law, not to prevent the crime in the first place.

He didn't say entrapment, he said trapping. Its different.

 

[northwichcat]

Why not inform people that they are obliged to buy a ticket AFTER they have left the train if they have not got one before?

Exactly. Some conductors on trains serving Leeds announce prior to arrival at Leeds what to do if you've not been able to buy a ticket but in other areas the average passenger doesn't know that the ticket office can issue a ticket not originating there.

At Manchester Piccadilly they could put up posters on the glass doors saying along the lines of:

HAVE YOU NOT PURCHASED A TICKET?
If you have been unable to buy a ticket before arriving at this station then you must ....

 

[cuccir]

However the guard made no attempt to collect fares, retreating to the rear cab as soon as the train was away and only emerging again at Thornaby to do the doors, etc.

I agree with most of your post - but I wouldn't use the word retreating (I'm not sure if you meant this to have negative connotations or not!). Frankly, on a full train with people standing a guard coming down trying to purchase tickets could potentially cause a whole range of problems. I think its perfectly reasonable not to expect a guard to sell tickets in these circumstances.

 

[mallard]

It does seem rather unfair that the TOC can provide completely inadequate ticket purchasing facilities and then prosecute those who fail to use them.

Of course it's morally and legally the right thing to do, but I don't think you can hold the "fare evader" wholly responsible in situations like those described.

 

[John @ home]

a Penalty Fare is a fine for not paying

A Penalty Fare is not a fine. It is a penalty for passengers who make an honest mistake. See DfT's Penalty Fares Policy.

if you pay a Penalty Fare you would still have to pay the original fare you should have paid.

That's incorrect. In the current version of Penalty Fares on the National Rail network, the Penalty Fare is £20, or twice the single fare, whichever is the higher.

 

[Bill Badger]

Isn't that open to interpretation though?

Say, the train was due to arrive at 11:30 but arrives at 11:45 and you need to be somewhere 15 minutes walk from the station at 12:00. You could claim it isn't practical to queue for 5-10 minutes at Piccadilly when you are already late.

In such circumstances. if you bought a ticket and then submitted a compensation claim for delays to your journey, I wonder what the response would be?!

 

[yorkie]

On another note why didn't the inspector just ask for the £20 PF?

Ignoring the 'penalty' part of the question (as penalty fares for honest travellers do not apply on Northern), they were not interested in collecting a fare because their intention is to prosecute. Northern set up schemes (some of which seem dubious, sometimes including a "voucher" system) that appear to be designed to catch people out, and if all they did was charge a fare, then they wouldn't achieve Northern's aims, which appear to be to cause fear and to make passengers inconvenience themselves by going out of their way to queue up at their destination.

Northern's intention on the date in question does not appear to be to collect fares from unstaffed stations, the intention appears to be to catch people out. If it's not actually entrapment, then it's as close to entrapment as you can possibly get!

I've just had another thought about the checking of tickets at the concourse exit (which I posted on the tangent thread). The Piccadilly concourse is fully open access, so you don't need a ticket to be there. How do the RPIs standing at the Piccadilly Approach exit know you have got off a train? You may be cutting through from the Metrolink/taxi area, have come from the car park, been shopping or to one of the bars, or simply been waving someone off at one of the platforms.

I find the scenario described difficult to understand. I can only guess perhaps they asked the OP "did you travel by train?" and if the answer was "yes" then to ask to see the ticket. I am struggling to picture it happening in the way described, unless Northern are acting extremely dubiously and sneakily - which I wouldn't put past them.

 

[Capybara]

No, no negative connotations intended towards the guard as it's clearly what they are instructed to do, rightly so in the particular circumstances. It was the bigger point about service and making money I was trying to get across.

 

[northwichcat]

Ignoring the 'penalty' part of the question (as penalty fares for honest travellers do not apply on Northern), they were not interested in collecting a fare because their intention is to prosecute.

Northern recently had a failed court case where they tried to prosecute someone who admitted trying to pay for a shorter journey then the one they made. It was reported as costing Northern around £2,000 to try and reclaim 50p so I wouldn't be surprised if they have changed their approach.

 

[yorkie]

Northern recently had a failed court case where they tried to prosecute someone who admitted trying to pay for a shorter journey then the one they made. It was reported as costing Northern around £2,000 to try and reclaim 50p so I wouldn't be surprised if they have changed their approach.

There are a lot of these stories, but I am unsure which one this refers to. Was it the Burley Park/Headingley case that Northern lost? I was also under the impression that the court costs (if that is what the £2,000 you refer to is?) were paid for by taxpayers rather than Northern directly. Though it's probably a moot point given that Northern is heavily subsidised by taxpayers anyway. The information that has been revealed in selected articles regarding such cases seems to suggest that the court costs are not paid by TOCs, however I can find no proof either way. If anyone has extensive knowledge of this area, it would be interesting to find out.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern recently had a failed court case where they tried to prosecute someone who admitted trying to pay for a shorter journey then the one they made. It was reported as costing Northern around £2,000 to try and reclaim 50p so I wouldn't be surprised if they have changed their approach.

I remember that, there was a similar one though at Trafford park when a lady got on at Urmston or Humphrey Park which was successful so it seems to depend how serious the magistrate sees it

 

[northwichcat]

It appears to be claimed that there was a check on the exit to the station - after the ticket office - and not at the barrier. I am struggling to picture this scenario.

Other people have reported similar scenarios with G4S at Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria. There was a post in another thread where someone else claimed as soon as they walked past the ticket office at Piccadilly after alighting a Northern service they were pounced on by G4S asking for tickets who claimed he/she has forfeited their right to purchase a ticket by walking past the ticket office.

Can you clarify what this means please? Which members are first to "lambast" conductors or RPIs, members of who/where?

It seems very confusing why Northern conductors all seem to have different approaches. One Northern conductor once posted on a forum that he made over £500 in commission from a return Manchester-Chester working (if that hadn't already have been posted on a forum I wouldn't have posted it here,) yet some conductors don't seem that bothered about doing ticket checks.

 

[northwichcat]

There are a lot of these stories, but I am unsure which one this refers to. Was it the Burley Park/Headingley case that Northern lost? I was also under the impression that the court costs (if that is what the £2,000 you refer to is?) were paid for by taxpayers rather than Northern directly. Though it's probably a moot point given that Northern is heavily subsidised by taxpayers anyway. The information that has been revealed in selected articles regarding such cases seems to suggest that the court costs are not paid by TOCs, however I can find no proof either way. If anyone has extensive knowledge of this area, it would be interesting to find out.

The Flowery Field one is what I was thinking of: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...after-11-month-legal-battle-costing-thousands

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Other people have reported similar scenarios with G4S at Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria. There was a post in another thread where someone else claimed as soon as they walked past the ticket office at Piccadilly after alighting a Northern service they were pounced on by G4S asking for tickets who claimed he/she has forfeited their right to purchase a ticket by walking past the ticket office.




It seems very confusing why Northern conductors all seem to have different approaches. One Northern conductor once posted on a forum that he made over £500 in commission from a return Manchester-Chester working (if that hadn't already have been posted on a forum I wouldn't have posted it here,) yet some conductors don't seem that bothered about doing ticket checks.

On the 1st point I can definetly say I have never seen that at Mcr Piccadilly I am sure network rail would go berserk if that happened

on the 2nd point you must mean £50 commision on a Chester-Piccadilly as I do not know of anyone who has taken £10000 in ticket sales on one of those trips (I wish it was possible lol)

we can take good money on some trips but it isnt just about money its about time keeping,safety an customer service as well Personally I go out about 4 times on a Chester Trip and tend to take the same as someone who goes out after every stop and sometimes we cannot just get through being full and standing (Chester races are a good example)

 

[WestCoast]

Somethings are not adding up however Northern are not acting sneakily if they are attempting to recover lost revenue as members are first to lambast a conductor or rpi for not doing there part of the job correctly..it works both ways

My complaint isn't about Northern's staff, on the whole you're a great professional team IMHO and I've always been impressed, its about the management's policies on ticketing, which IMO aren't up to a good standard.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

My complaint isn't about Northern's staff, on the whole you're a great professional team IMHO and I've always been impressed, its about the management's policies on ticketing, which IMO aren't up to a good standard.

Personally I wish they would take revenue protection inhouse as G4 can do a terrible job alot of the time and are poorly trained and the policies that the Higher bosses implement can be a nightmare for us lot, thats why our local management tend to let us use our common sense

 

[northwichcat]

on the 2nd point you must mean £50 commision on a Chester-Piccadilly as I do not know of anyone who has taken £10000 in ticket sales on one of those trips (I wish it was possible lol)

It might be I've remembered it wrong but it was definitely a three figure number. Possibly it was a day when there was a special event on (maybe not on the local line) I know one day a group of people got on at Greenbank and all asked for Colwyn Bay tickets.

 

[Darandio]

Technically it up to yourself to find the Conductor on the train (However In 10 years I have never known this to be enforced)

No, it isn't, and do you have a source for that?

Any chance of having this one answered please? This is simply because what if the guard cannot be found? i.e has locked themselves in the back and not appeared to check tickets.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We were always told in training that "technically" it is up to the passenger to find the guard however I cannot find it in the Conditions of Carriage so it may have been one of those many railway myths that seem to get passed down to us Traincrew, so if I am wrong I apologise however I have heard it from a few bosses as well.