Ticket scanning / On-board sales commission

[dk1]

I don't know what you're getting at? Incentivising a member of commercial staff (which is the hat the conductor has on at that moment) to work harder brings benefits to the company and shouldn't add risks. Incentivising a driver based on timekeeping will only have a negative effect on safety - look at the effect that has on delivery drivers.


Braking later and harder, risking overshoots to make up a few seconds. Being distracted by a delay etc.

For a start ASLEF would never tolerate it and all my driver managers have always been far more interested in defensive driving. Timekeeping although important comes way down their list.

 

[35B]

I don't know what you're getting at? Incentivising a member of commercial staff (which is the hat the conductor has on at that moment) to work harder brings benefits to the company and shouldn't add risks. Incentivising a driver based on timekeeping will only have a negative effect on safety - look at the effect that has on delivery drivers.

Both are instances of people being incentivised to do their job in a particular fashion. There are good reasons that you set out for why the details play out differently, but at the headline level, the same argument is being used in opposing directions

 

[Krokodil]

Both are instances of people being incentivised to do their job in a particular fashion. There are good reasons that you set out for why the details play out differently, but at the headline level, the same argument is being used in opposing directions

Providing a financial incentive for sales is completely different to incentivising unsafe behaviour while someone is engaged in a safety-critical staff.

Apples and oranges are both instances of fruit.

 

[iamraymond]

Providing a financial incentive for sales is completely different to incentivising unsafe behaviour while someone is engaged in a safety-critical staff.

Apples and oranges are both instances of fruit.

Do they physically generate the sales? E.g. find car users and convert them to buying a train ticket instead? No.. they're just getting a bonus for doing their job

 

[LowLevel]

Do they physically generate the sales? E.g. find car users and convert them to buying a train ticket instead? No.. they're just getting a bonus for doing their job

When you consider the job has evolved significantly in the last 10-15 years and what was once being the legitimate point of sale for large numbers of passengers reasonably willing to pay with a decent commission payment as a result has morphed into no longer being the legitimate point of sale and for most purposes chasing reluctant individuals for smaller fares with significantly increased aggro and reduced take home pay, a small incentive/bonus for getting stuck into it doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

On early turns my commission payment per *week* in 2014 could easily approach £130. Nowadays it's nowhere near per month, more like two months, even as someone who is as proactive as they've ever been.

In context - even with combined scanning and commission payments the TOCs still pay significantly less than they did 10 years ago in commission alone.

Having something to aim for and achieve helps keep people motivated - the salary alone only does that for so long when part and parcel of the job in many areas is being abused, assaulted and threatened as effectively lone workers.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

A member of train staff being bothered to walk up and down the train and check people's tickets isn't being better at the job in the same way that a sales person converting more leads into sales is.

But they kind of are though.

The priorities of my role (at my TOC) as a guard are;

1. Safety - doors, dispatch, etc
2. Punctuality - being on time encourages patronage
3. Customer Service - being visible in the train, available on platforms for assistance
4. Revenue - both sales and scans.

Fail at number 1, I can lose my job.
Fail at 2 & 3, I'll be managed on my performance
Fail at number 4, nothing will happen.

A guard who only does 1 is only doing the basics.
A guard who prioritises 3&4 is putting their job at risk.
A guard who ensures all 4 points are met, but prioritising 1&2 is a high performer.

 

[Krokodil]

Do they physically generate the sales? E.g. find car users and convert them to buying a train ticket instead? No.. they're just getting a bonus for doing their job

They're converting freeloaders and would-be fraudsters into honest, paying passengers.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The problem with any incentive/target scheme (in any industry) is the potential for the employee to "chase" that reward, sometimes to the detriment of the customer. I think that nay such scheme must be accompanied by, not only a "do it" motivation, but by a "do it right every time" condition. So - as a passenger you are actually doing nothing wrong - but you get challenged anyway. We see enough reports on this very forum and it's a fair bet that represents only a tiny fraction of live instances*. A negative "reward" (i.e. penalty against rewards) needs to be in place for all and any erroneous cases.

* recent example: Pax travels entirely within a valid itinerary provided at booking, and attempts to break his journey at an en-route point; gets reported by staff for - what was it? Over-travelling?

 

[azzarazza]

Do tickets have any sort of cooling off period for scans; i.e. if the same guard scanned the same ticket twice on the same journey would they only receive the one scan bonus?

 

[CEB24]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is also an 'investment' element to scanning payments for TOCs. I know I'm probably teaching a lot of this forum to suck eggs, but once the ticket's QR code has been scanned, it's 'used' and cannot be refunded. This will be affected by the National Rail Conditions of Travel changes re. refunds no doubt, but by incentivising the Train Manager/Guard/Conductor to scan tickets during their checks, it does reduce the amount of tickets being refunded even when the journey is still completed. There are entire journeys which, without a proactive onboard team, you can do without a single ticket check or barrier. Runcorn to London Euston springs to mind. No barriers upon entry to Runcorn, and no barriers upon arrival to Euston, yet the traveller could request a refund. A simple 2p per scan payment could stop a £170-odd refund from occurring from an Anytime train journey south.

 

[notspy]

Do tickets have any sort of cooling off period for scans; i.e. if the same guard scanned the same ticket twice on the same journey would they only receive the one scan bonus?

There's not a cooling off period, but a guard cannot scan the same ticket twice. If the journey has multiple crews, the guard/revenue staff will select where they want it to clip to, so that when another crew member boards further down the line, it will not flash up. They can still see these scans (and barrier scans etc.) under the "scan history" tab when the ticket is scanned. If a guard has accidentally set the clip destination wrong (which happens occasionally), when the ticket is scanned it will flash "CLIPPED TO -STATION-", but it can still be overridden by the guard so they will still get their commission on that scan. The same applies for railcards too.
Different TOCs have different machines, I can only say for TTK, someone else on STAR might be able to add if there's any differences.
Hope this helps.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There's not a cooling off period, but a guard cannot scan the same ticket twice. If the journey has multiple crews, the guard/revenue staff will select where they want it to clip to, so that when another crew member boards further down the line, it will not flash up. They can still see these scans (and barrier scans etc.) under the "scan history" tab when the ticket is scanned. If a guard has accidentally set the clip destination wrong (which happens occasionally), when the ticket is scanned it will flash "CLIPPED TO -STATION-", but it can still be overridden by the guard so they will still get their commission on that scan. The same applies for railcards too.
Different TOCs have different machines, I can only say for TTK, someone else on STAR might be able to add if there's any differences.
Hope this helps.

One time I presented my ticket to 2 RPIs ~10 seconds apart, the second one looked at in confusion for a moment before mentioning something I can't recall the precise wording of about how it was clear he could tell the other person had scanned it.
Would it show a timestamp of when it was last scanned and by who that would be available immediately such that they could tell just by looming at it?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

One time I presented my ticket to 2 RPIs ~10 seconds apart, the second one looked at in confusion for a moment before mentioning something I can't recall the precise wording of about how it was clear he could tell the other person had scanned it.
Would it show a timestamp of when it was last scanned and by who that would be available immediately such that they could tell just by looming at it?

Yep. On our version of TTK it will give exact time of clip, who by, whether it was gateline or on train, notes attached etc

 

[Undiscovered]

One time I presented my ticket to 2 RPIs ~10 seconds apart, the second one looked at in confusion for a moment before mentioning something I can't recall the precise wording of about how it was clear he could tell the other person had scanned it.
Would it show a timestamp of when it was last scanned and by who that would be available immediately such that they could tell just by looming at it?

If TTK is programmed with the same headcode, and 'scan to' destination, on both handsets, then yes, it would show up immediately as having already been scanned, with the ID and time of scan.

If not, then the ticket will show up with either an accept, reject or check other information flag (Railcard etc). Any other scan data can be seen by looking at the tickets Scan History.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

On early turns my commission payment per *week* in 2014 could easily approach £130. Nowadays it's nowhere near per month, more like two months, even as someone who is as proactive as they've ever been.

Although that is being a little selective.
If you had sold hundreds of pounds worth of tickets in 1982 your commission would have been zero as BR didn’t pay commission in those days because ticket selling and checking was just considered one if the basic roles of the Guard.

 

[LowLevel]

Although that is being a little selective.
If you had sold hundreds of pounds worth of tickets in 1982 your commission would have been zero as BR didn’t pay commission in those days because ticket selling and checking was just considered one if the basic roles of the Guard.

Some guards? Was there not a premium paid for conductor guard turns until the Traincrew Concept in 1988, if we are looking at 40 odd years ago That was the whole point of introducing commission, it came along with Open Stations and the widespread adoption of revenue guard roles as Conductors and Senior Conductors.

 

[Bishops]

The problem with any incentive/target scheme (in any industry) is the potential for the employee to "chase" that reward, sometimes to the detriment of the customer. I think that nay such scheme must be accompanied by, not only a "do it" motivation, but by a "do it right every time" condition. So - as a passenger you are actually doing nothing wrong - but you get challenged anyway. We see enough reports on this very forum and it's a fair bet that represents only a tiny fraction of live instances*. A negative "reward" (i.e. penalty against rewards) needs to be in place for all and any erroneous cases.

* recent example: Pax travels entirely within a valid itinerary provided at booking, and attempts to break his journey at an en-route point; gets reported by staff for - what was it? Over-travelling?

I think you are mixing up guards ( who in general cant do PFs im led to believe ) and RPIs who are the ones who reported that person for prosecution

this is all about guards getting 2p per scan which is not an incentive its now part of their agreements and is great as it does mean they will get out and about in the train more often imo

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Some guards? Was there not a premium paid for conductor guard turns until the Traincrew Concept in 1988, if we are looking at 40 odd years ago That was the whole point of introducing commission, it came along with Open Stations and the widespread adoption of revenue guard roles as Conductors and Senior Conductors.

I worked at Birmingham New Street and don’t remember any Guards getting commission. We had no ‘pay train’ turns but still took out an excess pad for ticket sales.
Admittedly there were a lot more booking offices then, and even somewhere like Barnt Green had a mobile ticket seller for 2 hours every morning.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Although seeing some of the most proactive and visible conductors on the network Greater Anglia (ex-Anglia Railways) staff afaik still only get 5% commission for those on older contracts whereas newer entrants get a maximum of 4% and less than that for the first few months. None get any payment for ticket scans and are regularly monitored & picked up if they do not meet expectations.

I'd be amazed if there is a policy accepted by their union which agreed scanning for free including a target. If so their reps need to hang their heads in shame.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2026 ==

What does their job involve out of interest? What services do they work on?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2026 ==


That's very good. EMR are generally pretty good but a few too many do hide, I hoping that the ticket scanning payment encourages some more checks as fare evasion is quite high but is never really picked up on.

The ATE grade is best described as a non-Safety critical guard. They can fulfil the entire role of a Senior Conductor with the exception of anything Safety critical. Passenger assistance, ticket checking and customer service primarily. Sadly the value of them compared to RPOs isn't seen so they've been 'Almost Terminally Extinct' for ten years or more now. The two remaining examples are some of the best colleagues I have, sadly they sit in the stations bargaining unit and not with on train else I'm sure we'd have more of them.

As an example when we had full time ATEs they used to retail a six figure sum of tickets before online and TVMs took away the majority of their sales. I'm a big champion of them and wish we had more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2026 ==

But they kind of are though.

The priorities of my role (at my TOC) as a guard are;

1. Safety - doors, dispatch, etc
2. Punctuality - being on time encourages patronage
3. Customer Service - being visible in the train, available on platforms for assistance
4. Revenue - both sales and scans.

Fail at number 1, I can lose my job.
Fail at 2 & 3, I'll be managed on my performance
Fail at number 4, nothing will happen.

A guard who only does 1 is only doing the basics.
A guard who prioritises 3&4 is putting their job at risk.
A guard who ensures all 4 points are met, but prioritising 1&2 is a high performer.

I'd argue a guard only doing 1 is no guard at all, they're a back cab hero. A guard doing 1 is also ensuring the safety of passengers between stops by being a visible presence within the train, and not playing Candy Crush in the back cab.

 

[dk1]

I'd be amazed if there is a policy accepted by their union which agreed scanning for free including a target. If so their reps need to hang their heads in shame.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2026 ==

Prepare to be amazed. From what I gather there was a loophole for that at GA in the same way that there was for drivers to take control of the doors when the Stadler 745/755s were introduced in 2019. Some dodgy dealings went on in the Anglia Railways years it seems.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I think you are mixing up guards ( who in general cant do PFs im led to believe ) and RPIs who are the ones who reported that person for prosecution

this is all about guards getting 2p per scan which is not an incentive its now part of their agreements and is great as it does mean they will get out and about in the train more often imo

It was a general observation using an example; not a specific response to that precise instance.

But "scan" surely isn't it, is it? Guards are (presumably) expected to undertake some sort of revenue activity if the "scan" fails; they surely can't simply be required to "scan" and ignore any questionable responses from the scan. And they (just as RPIs or anyone else) presumably can either misinterpret "scan" responses, or the system has it wrong or whatever. In which case, no system can fully replace human judgement, and it's when that judgement fails in favour of any type of "penalty" (full single fare or otherwise) when it should have fallen with the passenger that (IMO) a discredit should be applied.

Here's an easy example not from any specific case I recall here or elsewhere.
Pax boards train with valid ticket of a type that permits Break of Journey.
Ticket is scanned.
Pax alights short.
Pax boards another service later to continue. Sufficient time has elapsed for pax to have travelled back from their true destination to the intermediate stop - but that's not what they actually did.
Scan shows ticket already used, time of scan, personnel involved.

Two outcomes:
- ticket plus accompanying explanation (if required) accepted
- ticket rejected, incorrectly.

 

[Sonic1234]

If you're doing a legitimate journey where the scan data could be misinterpreted e.g. multiple breaks of journey, probably best using CCST.

 

[Krokodil]

they surely can't simply be required to "scan" and ignore any questionable responses from the scan

Management have pressure on them from above for Conductors to be scanning. There is no KPI for them actually doing anything about iffy tickets. If a conscientious Conductor scans a ticket, notices a discrepancy and challenges the passenger, if that passenger kicks off and turns it into an incident - maybe gets abusive, train gets delayed or whatever - that creates trouble for management. If the passenger puts in a complaint - that turns out to be baseless - it will create work for management. So the Conductor will get it in the neck from their manager for having done his/her job properly. If on the other hand the Conductor ambles through blindly bleeping their scanner in the vague direction of Aztec codes, the scan targets will be met and management will be happy. The fact that all of the passengers may well have showed a screenshot of the exact same reused Aztec code discounted with a JCP discount card that none of them have is neither here nor there.

 

[Sonic1234]

If a conscientious Conductor scans a ticket, notices a discrepancy and challenges the passenger, if that passenger kicks off and turns it into an incident - maybe gets abusive, train gets delayed or whatever - that creates trouble for management. If the passenger puts in a complaint - that turns out to be baseless - it will create work for management. So the Conductor will get it in the neck from their manager for having done his/her job properly.

There's an unfortunate life lesson there. Often what is valued is that you don't create work for other people, not that you do the job conscientiously. Keeping your head down and not being a nuisance is the best way to survive in many organisations.

The railcard discounted scan noise is the expected scan noise. The tickets that get checked more thoroughly are those that aren't discounted, because it's unusual.

 

[Kite159]

..

Management have pressure on them from above for Conductors to be scanning. There is no KPI for them actually doing anything about iffy tickets. If a conscientious Conductor scans a ticket, notices a discrepancy and challenges the passenger, if that passenger kicks off and turns it into an incident - maybe gets abusive, train gets delayed or whatever - that creates trouble for management. If the passenger puts in a complaint - that turns out to be baseless - it will create work for management. So the Conductor will get it in the neck from their manager for having done his/her job properly. If on the other hand the Conductor ambles through blindly bleeping their scanner in the vague direction of Aztec codes, the scan targets will be met and management will be happy. The fact that all of the passengers may well have showed a screenshot of the exact same reused Aztec code discounted with a JCP discount card that none of them have is neither here nor there.

Usual response with JCP misuse is either "I've left it at home" or "someone else purchased the tickets for me, I didn't realise".

As for scans, it depends on the time of day and the destination of the train. Peak time and a good percentage of the passengers will be using smartcards. Leisure time heading into London and it's a fair percentage of paper tickets due to either being travelcards or cross London/Zone 1. (Personally I always mute the sound, as a way to check the screen)

 

[bunnahabhain]

.Here's an easy example not from any specific case I recall here or elsewhere.
Pax boards train with valid ticket of a type that permits Break of Journey.
Ticket is scanned.
Pax alights short.
Pax boards another service later to continue. Sufficient time has elapsed for pax to have travelled back from their true destination to the intermediate stop - but that's not what they actually did.
Scan shows ticket already used, time of scan, personnel involved.

Two outcomes:
- ticket plus accompanying explanation (if required) accepted
- ticket rejected, incorrectly.

You tend to find somebody has used a return portion and exited at the gateline or had it scanned to the destination on a previous day, having just left the origin. As an example the last one I had had been used 2 days previously, had been scanned on two separate trains and then miraculously has returned to origin and done the same journey on the same trains again. New ticket sold without question when presented with "Oh, I think you used that one two days ago, do you have a ticket for today please?". No accusation of malice in their error even if intended, and no conflict for me.

 

[185143]

The ticket will still scan but will just say already scanned. They still scan it to see the passenger data/ route etc., and if there was no obvious explanation why it had already been scanned then they would ask you about it. Tickets are already scanned when there are multiple ticket checks on a long journey, or when a guard scans a ticket then revenue protection get on and do another full check. It can also be seen when and where it was scanned- if it was earlier in the trains journey then obviously you aren't doing anything wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2026 ==


Because, as explained, getting guards to scan tickets has many benefits for the company and therefore it is good to incentivise that. And again, rightly or wrongly, guards used to receive commission from many onboard sales so they've effectively taken a pay cut, and they're job has changed from more onboard sales to more onboard checks.

I had an e ticket last week, travelling on GWR between Exeter and Plymouth. About 15 of us were on a late running SWR service and watched our planned XC connection leave as the doors were released.

The GWR TM allowed us to travel once someone said the SWR was late in. I don't know if they've been told to be more flexible with the lifts at Exeter being out also? Personally I would have been willing to buy a new ticket as I had to catch a ferry. But that's by the by. The TM came through doing tickets. Scanned my original advance and it gave the rejected beep unsurprisingly. Obviously he said he was fine and carried on. No mention of asking for my railcard though, so I don't know how well he looked at it beyond the original flash of the ticket and "I've missed my connection too" on the platform.

Either way, was very greatful for it, and was glad to see the railway do the right thing.

 

[Kite159]

..

I had an e ticket last week, travelling on GWR between Exeter and Plymouth. About 15 of us were on a late running SWR service and watched our planned XC connection leave as the doors were released.

The GWR TM allowed us to travel once someone said the SWR was late in. I don't know if they've been told to be more flexible with the lifts at Exeter being out also? Personally I would have been willing to buy a new ticket as I had to catch a ferry. But that's by the by. The TM came through doing tickets. Scanned my original advance and it gave the rejected beep unsurprisingly. Obviously he said he was fine and carried on. No mention of asking for my railcard though, so I don't know how well he looked at it beyond the original flash of the ticket and "I've missed my connection too" on the platform.

Either way, was very greatful for it, and was glad to see the railway do the right thing.

GWR are probably used to accepting XC advances from missed connections with SWR, for the West of England isn't the best at time keeping for multiple reasons

 

[Sleepy]

Management have pressure on them from above for Conductors to be scanning. There is no KPI for them actually doing anything about iffy tickets. If a conscientious Conductor scans a ticket, notices a discrepancy and challenges the passenger, if that passenger kicks off and turns it into an incident - maybe gets abusive, train gets delayed or whatever - that creates trouble for management. If the passenger puts in a complaint - that turns out to be baseless - it will create work for management. So the Conductor will get it in the neck from their manager for having done his/her job properly. If on the other hand the Conductor ambles through blindly bleeping their scanner in the vague direction of Aztec codes, the scan targets will be met and management will be happy. The fact that all of the passengers may well have showed a screenshot of the exact same reused Aztec code discounted with a JCP discount card that none of them have is neither here nor there.

Spot on - scan everthing that moves and management are happy - generate complaints and it's viewed dimly.

 

[RPI]

The ATE grade is best described as a non-Safety critical guard. They can fulfil the entire role of a Senior Conductor with the exception of anything Safety critical. Passenger assistance, ticket checking and customer service primarily. Sadly the value of them compared to RPOs isn't seen so they've been 'Almost Terminally Extinct' for ten years or more now. The two remaining examples are some of the best colleagues I have, sadly they sit in the stations bargaining unit and not with on train else I'm sure we'd have more of them.

As an example when we had full time ATEs they used to retail a six figure sum of tickets before online and TVMs took away the majority of their sales. I'm a big champion of them and wish we had more.

TE's at GWR issue Penalty Fares too and are regularly used on blocks etc with RPI's, this was part of the 2014 "Harmonisation" between the grades as there were, at the time, former Wessex Trains and Thames Trains grades (the former Great Western Trains/First Great Western didn't actually have them), they were basically harmonised up to the former Thames grade with the addition of Penalty Fares.

Shortly before that, around 2010, the RPI grades are harmonised as there was a massive gap in pay there, again, we were all made up to the former Thames grade and we actually did alright out of it, it was around an £8k pay rise over three years with 100% pensionable pay.