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“Extreme day trippers” on the rise

The Ham

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The big issue causing emissions increases is the rise of private aviation. Note they really do clobber the environment, private jets have an astronomical environmental cost because they don’t have many people on them.

Until the use of private aviation is restricted, everything else is just peeing in the wind.

Whist what you say about private aviation needing to be restricted, that's not the whole picture.

For example, car emissions in 2022 were just shy of 60 Mt (59.6 Mt), expectations are that in 2030 this will fall to 34 Mt.

Overall the numbers for total emissions due the UK are 2022 406 Mt with this existing to fall to around 356 Mt by 2030. Even with a flat emission rate of 29 Mt for aviation that changes the percentage from 7.1% to 8.1%.

However, there has been an increase already since 2022 due to the rebound from Covid, with 2024 seeing emissions of 38 Mt. and whist some of that will be private aviation, it's certainly not all of the increase (+70 million extra passengers).
 
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Starmill

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Whist what you say about private aviation needing to be restricted, that's not the whole picture.

For example, car emissions in 2022 were just shy of 60 Mt (59.6 Mt), expectations are that in 2030 this will fall to 34 Mt.

Overall the numbers for total emissions due the UK are 2022 406 Mt with this existing to fall to around 356 Mt by 2030. Even with a flat emission rate of 29 Mt for aviation that changes the percentage from 7.1% to 8.1%.

However, there has been an increase already since 2022 due to the rebound from Covid, with 2024 seeing emissions of 38 Mt. and whist some of that will be private aviation, it's certainly not all of the increase (+70 million extra passengers).
The way I see it a very small number of people are abusing commercial flying. An even smaller number are abusing the privilege of the skies by flying private when they don't have to. The numbers involved are infinitesimal and almost all are 0.1%ers. Unfortunately the issue for the rest of us is that the atmosphere doesn't care who emits, and the atmospheric carbon coming from that infinitesimal slice needs to be tackled, both for it's own sake, and, more importantly, so that everyone else who needs to make some small sacrifices, which encompasses everyone in wealthy countries, is brought along with the plan.
 

Bald Rick

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I once did a day trip to New Zealand from the UK.

A friend of a friend did that - before video conferencing was a thing, they had an interview there that had to be in person. The recruiting company paid for it, so he arrived early one morning and left that evening. He travelled light - not even hand luggage!

Arriving back at Heathrow he was pulled by Border Control for a discussion, having been to NZ for a matter of hours and not overtly carrying anything he was given the full rubber glove treatment.
 
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Jimini

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A friend of a friend did that - before video conferencing was a thing, they had an interview there that had to be in lerson. The recruitign company oaid for it, so he arrived early one morning and left that evening. He travelled light - not even hand luggage!

Arriving back at Heathrow he was pulled by Border Control for a discussion, having been to NZ for a matter of hours and not overtly carrying anything he was given the full rubber glove treatment.

Similar story here :lol: Back when Richard Desmond owned his newspaper and magazine empire, one of the sales reps used to fly around the globe one flight ahead of him, and placing copies of OK! Magazine in arrival airports to give him the impression that his products were globally available. Said rep got the full glove treatment a couple of times, as he always flew with carry on only (and straight back again the same day), and the majority of the contents of his bag was a bundle of magazines that he’d deliver to the shop(s) at the destination airport :lol:
 

Ken X

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I was once offered a job delivering documents and/or items such a repair parts round the world. Basically you carried the items on the plane, delivered them to a recipient and flew back. I haven't done the research but I would not be surprised to find the service still exists.
 

FinsburyPark

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I've done plenty of Extreme Day Trips

The idea os not for everyone as many people I speak to in real life seem to prefer the idea of long weekends or weeks holidays.

That said it does appeal to some.

I've never been that ecologically minded from the outset so I have no issues with flying on these trips.
 

The Ham

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Until the use of private aviation is restricted, everything else is just peeing in the wind.

I most definitely agree with you.

Whilst private jets are much more polluting per passenger and are seeing increases much faster than commercial aviation, in Mt. values it's quite small:
- all aviation (2019 peak) 1,000 Mt.
- private jets (2023, as it has grown by 46% since 2019) 16 Mt.

To put worldwide private jets into into a UK context, when Drax gets turned off that's 11 Mt. of carbon no longer being emitted (although it's argued that it's recent carbon, however it's still an emission) or decarbonising the waste sector (19 Mt.).

Hardly "pissing in the wind" numbers, although there will be a need to limit the growth, as if it were to double then that could be an issue.

However, again context could be key. If private jets emissions double (+16Mt.) because commercial airlines cut routes by 3% (-30Mt.) and so those who "have" to fly swap but far more go by train instead then the overall impact is lower global emissions.

For example, the fact that a private jetis up to 15 times worsethan a commercial airline means that even if a flight taking 60 people was cut and 3 then used private jets the total emissions would still be lower (it's why the argument against a French type ban based on train journey time of "but people will just use private jets' is a weak one, as virtually everyone will just swap to rail).

Also, in the context of this thread, it can come across as "I'm not as bad as others, so I'm fine".

When in the context of the number of air passengers in the UK is around 1 per person of population, then anyone taking 2 return trips by air is already four times higher than the average person (and even then that's including people flying to the UK to see people, so in terms of UK residents' flight numbers it's even worse).

The whole thing with emissions is that anything extra is bad. It's why comparisons between cars and trains are poor, in that the car is always extra emissions.

Likewise, comparing Voyager with a passenger jet, in that the comparison is between the worst of the railways (and many would argue is due a replacement in the near future) with the best of aviation (where it's far harder to decarbonise much more in any reasonable timeline, other than to withdraw services).

To give an example of this, the main reason we have such a green grid isn't entirely down to renewables, a lot is down to significantly less electricity being used even with a larger population and smaller average household sizes (on a per household basis we use less electricity and gas now with all our tech, including some electric cars, than we did in 1980).
 

Sealink

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I used to do Ryanair day trips all the time when they used to advertise £1 fares inc. taxes.

I'm now absolutely over flying and airports.
 

AdamWW

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It's also of note that the carbon emissions per seat between a modern aircraft (particularly a turboprop) and a Voyager don't differ wildly. Electric trains come off much better, though.

Which is a valid comparison if choosing a mode of transport to make a particular journey, but not when looking at the impact of choosing air travel to enable an "extreme" day out since this results in travelling much further than would otherwise be the case.

In such circumstances emmissions per seat mile are definitely the wrong metric. You need something more like emissions per day out, which will give you a very different answer.

I don't know if it's still the established view that CO2 emission at airliner heights has more impact than when released at ground level but if so that also needs to be taken into account.

Much of the wailing and gnashing of teeth about aviation emissions is tokenism too. Somewhere between 2% and 8% of emissions in the UK are from aviation, depending on who you listen to. Assuming the higher figure, that still means that 92% of emissions still come from somewhere else.

I really can't understand this argument.

By following this logic all I have to do is split the remaining (say) 92% into little blocks too and I can then argue that each of those is also too small to be worth doing anything about.

No point in any city in the UK doing anything to reduce emissions because all the others put together produce far more.

BBC today claims that - at least in Scotland - more people are taking flights out-and-back on the same day, just for leisure purposes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce84zd68242o

The woman quoted claims that she offsets the carbon emissions from her family’s frequent flying. But surely this is just tokenism, as complete and proper offsetting of this volume of short-haul flying would be next to impossible for any normal person or family?

I read a similar article elsewhere, in which the "offsetting" was described as having a pescatarian diet and using a "green" electricity supplier.

I think the latter is likely to be tokenism unless using such suppliers is actually resulting in the creation of more renewable capacity.
 

westv

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Not my idea of fun really spending hours getting there only to have to turn round and spend hours getting back.
The closest I've ever done is back in the 80s overnight on the boat train to Paris and back again the following evening - with a day in Paris.
 

Meole

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About 30 years ago the morning delivery from Lyneham to Cyprus and back for lunch was available to visitors.
 

1D54

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Recently done East Midlands to Alicante and Dublin twice plus Luton to Amsterdam on day trips but stopped looking as the return fare these days seem three times as much as the outward, it just doesn't make sense now financially but many people think it makes no sense whatsoever anyway.
 

route101

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I have done Dublin a few times and Belfast on plane with ferry return. With hotel prices in Ireland, getting a late ryanair flight back can make sense.

With Europe, tend to go for a few nights. I have done a one nighter to GVA. Does save on A/L.

Even though KLM has multiple daily flights to AMS from many UK airports, the fare is very high for day returns unless you stay over.
 

dk1

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I will take a flight purely to tick the Wetherspoon after departures at an airport. It’s quite an honour to be called extreme for simply doing that.
 

1D54

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I will take a flight purely to tick the Wetherspoon after departures at an airport. It’s quite an honour to be called extreme for simply doing that.
Alicante done yet?
 

GRALISTAIR

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On Frequent Flyer forums, there was/is a whole sub forum called ”Mileage Runs”. Not as common these days as airlines have moved to money spent as the main metric as opposed to miles flown. I have seen some eye watering turn around. I will post a few later.
 

renegademaster

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Is this really any worse in experience then the many people on here (including me) who get up at 5am for a railtour that spends 4 hours at a destination?
 

1D54

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None whatsoever, it's just that going abroad for so many of us Brits are special moments in our lives that need planning by many like a military operation. Dutch, Belgian, Germans etc etc cross international borders just for a night out with no questions asked and no passports required.
 

scarby

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My mentality is basically the complete opposite of wanting to take an extreme day trip - I'd rather sleep over somewhere if the opportunity presents itself, and much prefer any itinerary with departures and arrivals at a civilised hour.

I have sometimes broken up a two-legged air journey and stayed overnight at an airport hotel, even though the journey could be completed in a day - no early starts and late finishes and very pleasant at the airport hotel where there is basically nothing to do except relax.

I have watched some of the extreme day-trippers on YouTube and while it makes for decent entertainment, which I guess is the point for those doing it professionally, I am totally baffled why someone would travel all the way to a far-flung destination and not stay at least one night to enjoy the place properly, especially with a nice evening out followed by a good night's sleep.

But each to their own!
 

The exile

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Is this really any worse in experience then the many people on here (including me) who get up at 5am for a railtour that spends 4 hours at a destination?
Clearly it’s subjective, but in terms of experience , to get them comparable most of the time you’d have to be sitting in the back coach of 13 Mk.3s on a rail tour with both out and back journeys done in the dark or thick fog.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I am totally baffled why someone would travel all the way to a far-flung destination and not stay at least one night to enjoy the place properly, especially with a nice evening out followed by a good night's sleep.

But each to their own!
Especially since most places are seen in their best light before the (less extreme) daytrippers arrive or after they leave!
 
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AdamWW

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None whatsoever, it's just that going abroad for so many of us Brits are special moments in our lives that need planning by many like a military operation. Dutch, Belgian, Germans etc etc cross international borders just for a night out with no questions asked and no passports required.

That seems a rather odd comment to me.

Are you suggesting that having to book a flight well ahead of time or get a ferry to go abroad is just the same as popping across a land border by road or rail and it's just some wierd British exceptionlism that sees the two things as different?

I can't imagine that many people in continental Europe fly hundreds of miles across a border for a night out.

I would love to be able to just take public transport to go abroad without having to book my travel well in advance but I don't have the deep pockets that would let me do that.
 

1D54

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That seems a rather odd comment to me.


I can't imagine that many people in continental Europe fly hundreds of miles across a border for a night out.
I probably could have worded that better. I also can't imagine many on the European mainland flying hundreds of miles for a night out but i certainly have a couple of German friends who catch trains to do exactly that and of course from the neck of the woods they come from i dare say there are others that walk it.
 

mmh

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By following this logic all I have to do is split the remaining (say) 92% into little blocks too and I can then argue that each of those is also too small to be worth doing anything about.

No point in any city in the UK doing anything to reduce emissions because all the others put together produce far more.
That's right. There is no point in the UK doing anything as China exists. It's all nonsense, so those who enjoy flying should fill their boots.
 

Tetchytyke

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I really can't understand this argument.

By following this logic all I have to do is split the remaining (say) 92% into little blocks too and I can then argue that each of those is also too small to be worth doing anything about.
When I lived in Newcastle I used to have day trips to Edinburgh, Glasgow, and London. I'd take the train and then I'd ride around on trains or buses whilst I was travelling to/from the various attractions I wanted to see. Sometimes the attraction I wanted to see was a train or a bus or a tram and I'd ride around on it.

We are on a railway forum. We're railway enthusiasts. There are plenty of people on here who'll travel to the other end of the country to tick off a rare bit of track or to tick off a brand new or soon to be withdrawn type of train. I have.

So why is a day trip but going on an aircraft any different?

If we're going down the reducto ad absurdum route, just about any leisure trip generates emissions.
 

AdamWW

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We are on a railway forum. We're railway enthusiasts. There are plenty of people on here who'll travel to the other end of the country to tick off a rare bit of track or to tick off a brand new or soon to be withdrawn type of train. I have.

So why is a day trip but going on an aircraft any different?

I'd argue that both are "extreme" compared to what most people would contemplate for a day out.

But if you don't see any qualitative difference between the sort of travel described here and a more conventional day out then fine- it's all subjective.

just about any leisure trip generates emissions.

Yes and - unlike aviation in any meaningful fashion - forms of transport that most people use for days out are being decarbonised (or are already so - walking and cycling).
 

The Ham

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When I lived in Newcastle I used to have day trips to Edinburgh, Glasgow, and London. I'd take the train and then I'd ride around on trains or buses whilst I was travelling to/from the various attractions I wanted to see. Sometimes the attraction I wanted to see was a train or a bus or a tram and I'd ride around on it.

We are on a railway forum. We're railway enthusiasts. There are plenty of people on here who'll travel to the other end of the country to tick off a rare bit of track or to tick off a brand new or soon to be withdrawn type of train. I have.

So why is a day trip but going on an aircraft any different?

If we're going down the reducto ad absurdum route, just about any leisure trip generates emissions.

Part of the big difference is the distances.

If we were to say that Newcastle to London circa 300 miles, then anything further than Paris or Amsterdam is beyond that, with extra milagerestoring in extra emissions.

In comparison, Berlin is well over double the distance whist Rome is nearly 4 times the distance. Neither of which are beyond 3 hours of flying.

Also, if you were to add 200kg to a fight there would be a need for a measurable amount of extra fuel needed, however add that to a train and it'll hardly change the energy requirements.

As such, it's not the time taken which is the concern, rather the distances traveled (and generally such fights are to places much further than would be done for a UK based trip), and the fact that adding 2 or 3 people to a fight will increase the total emissions (although per person they are likely to reduce) whist doing the same to a train will be hardly noticeable in total.

I've said in the past about our (family) travel of 250 miles each way to see family, which people had used to justify that they were OK flying (ignoring that our car was me, wife and kids, so the per person emissions would be quite low). Well, those emissions are now far lower as we have an EV, as the cost of our lease is what we were paying in petrol, with plans to reduce that further by getting more solar panels for our house.

Aviation is still years away from being able to get to those levels of emissions (even ignoring the ability to use solar to charge the car).
 

sprunt

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Clearly it’s subjective, but in terms of experience , to get them comparable most of the time you’d have to be sitting in the back coach of 13 Mk.3s on a rail tour with both out and back journeys done in the dark or thick fog.

Don't forget having to turn up two hours before departure in both directions to stand in a series of queues.
 

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