Ticket scanning / On-board sales commission

[Belperpete]

A CCST doesn’t require much more than a cursory glance, date, ticket type and where you’re going too. eTickets are much the same, the scanner beeps indicate validity, a cursory glance at the origin/destination will back up if they’re on the right train in the right direction.
On longer distance journeys where people are likely to have a change then it will usually get a double check, but on local/regional journeys it’s easy to cursory glance.

Agreed that it doesn't take long to check a CCST, and there are still some guards who do so, but it is patently obvious that most aren't in the least bit interested in reading anything on the ticket. As soon as I start to hold out a CCST I get thanked and they move on, in considerably less time than they take to electronically scan other people's tickets. I am convinced that I could present a seat reservation CCST and most guards wouldn't notice.

Unfortunately it is the law of unintended consequences. By incentivising staff to do one thing (electronically scan bar code and etickets), you are effectively disincentivising them from doing other things (such as manually checking CCST and scanning smartcards). Why spend time doing these things when you could be using that time earning extra money scanning other tickets?

 

[Kite159]

..

Agreed that it doesn't take long to check a CCST, and there are still some guards who do so, but it is patently obvious that most aren't in the least bit interested in reading anything on the ticket. As soon as I start to hold out a CCST I get thanked and they move on, in considerably less time than they take to electronically scan other people's tickets. I am convinced that I could present a seat reservation CCST and most guards wouldn't notice.

Unfortunately it is the law of unintended consequences. By incentivising staff to do one thing (electronically scan bar code and etickets), you are effectively disincentivising them from doing other things (such as manually checking CCST and scanning smartcards). Why spend time doing these things when you could be using that time earning extra money scanning other tickets?

And especially checking railcards as a fast guard can probably do 3 tickets in the time it takes someone to load up a railcard on some of the apps.

 

[Chiltern006]

Do guards get commission for scanning railcards too? Only happened to me once on LNR though

 

[Krokodil]

..

And especially checking railcards as a fast guard can probably do 3 tickets in the time it takes someone to load up a railcard on some of the apps.

Could get 30 tickets in the time it takes some people to find their railcard.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Do guards get commission for scanning railcards too? Only happened to me once on LNR though

LNR do, yes. Given how rife Railcard editing/fraud now is, it's very useful.

 

[8ace]

Checking tickets may be part of the job but typically the use of new technologies isn’t part of the job.

We also reflect that historically guards used to sell many thousands of pounds worth of tickets on trains - especially on more rural routes - and earned a commission on those sales. The upsurge of the use of apps (such as Trainline, Trip, etc) to buy e-tickets has seen an end to the levels of commission being earned.

I’m sure every driver would welcome 10p per customer the speak to - I’m sure they look forward to your support of the motion.

50p if they sound the horn when waved at

 

[DelW]

I think paper tickets have QR codes on too these days, so the same commission/incentive could be applied to them surely?

Paper roll tickets (PRT) have printed codes which are normally scanned during on board checks. Cardboard tickets (CCST) have a magnetic stripe and no printed code* so aren't scanned during on board checks.

*(Posts 36 and 37 had examples of CCST with printed codes, but I haven't seen one of those in any recent time)

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Paper roll tickets (PRT) have printed codes which are normally scanned during on board checks. Cardboard tickets (CCST) have a magnetic stripe and no printed code* so aren't scanned during on board checks.

*(Posts 36 and 37 had examples of CCST with printed codes, but I haven't seen one of those in any recent time)

I see ccst with Aztec codes most days

 

[Travelmonkey]

does make me think I usually have to buy on board as my d50 ticket isn't avalible on TVMs and my station TVM don't take cash anyway they often sell me the ticket and then scan does that mean double slices of the pie?

 

[officewalla]

Have you never had a performance-related bonus?

Hogwash. Nothing to do with performance related bonus. Do drivers get a bonus if the train is on time? Do signallers? Do managers get a bonus if their drivers remain competent. of course not. it is part of the job. and as for getting paid more to use technology is just union bully boy tactics, It is not hard or different to use a phone or tablet app to help improve the poor efficiency of a role. We all seem to manage it OK at home to make our lives easier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2026 ==

Don't forget the profit protection angle.

How does train companies obtain the huge amount of ticket history data or it's passengers? A mixture of booking sites and onboard scans. Onboard scans which prove which tickets were used on which trains and what date and time etc. highly accurate data that has lead to hundreds of cases each month, vast majority of them paying large sums back.

The scans pay for themselves before you look at the huge change in buying habits and the 90% drop in average commission at many depots.

I guess the question is, if you were receiving commission and your company completely changed how it sold tickets, wouldn't you be annoyed and want part of that lost income back?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2026 ==


There was less (reliable) data for managing performance, not that unions allowed active management that way at our TOC.

I had this very conversation last year with a manager.

Why are you less productive than others at the depot?
So I asked what data they had to support that idea given if always scored 100% in SQR (mystery shoppers).
Number of ticket sales, value of sales and lack of scan data was their response.

Ticket sales and value of sales are the most unreliable data to use, same train day to day or week to week can be vastly different.
We were in dispute for 12 months regarding pay per scan and I, amongst others refused to scan.

None of that made me any less productive. I was seen in the train constantly, I checked tickets no less than others. The only way to prove someone isn't being productive or is stuck in the cab is through visual assessments by managers, be that planned or on the spot.

Commission is like overtime in any job in any industry, Nice to have but not guaranteed. Nobody should rely upon addition non guaranteed income streams to fund whatever lifestyle they may lead.

 

[stadler]

does make me think I usually have to buy on board as my d50 ticket isn't avalible on TVMs and my station TVM don't take cash anyway they often sell me the ticket and then scan does that mean double slices of the pie?

Yes they get both commissions. If a guard sells a PRT ticket and then scans the same PRT ticket they sold then it means that they get both commission rates. So this would be either 3%/4%/5%/6% (whatever that TOC gives) for the ticket sale and then an additional 2p for the scan.

 

[DelW]

I see ccst with Aztec codes most days

Oh okay, I thought they'd been abandoned. Maybe it's different between TOCs or even between ticket offices within TOCs - almost all my CCSTs come from one of two local stations.

Do the ones with Aztec codes still have magstripes as well? I think my local stations still issue CCST because lots of tickets they sell need to be usable via TfL stations.

 

[transportphoto]

Oh okay, I thought they'd been abandoned. Maybe it's different between TOCs or even between ticket offices within TOCs - almost all my CCSTs come from one of two local stations.

It’s Avanti ticket offices in my experience - maybe GWR too? Someone else will be able to confirm for GWR. Do they both use TTK?

The Aztec code on CCST is an older format and is a lot less detailed compared to PRT/etickets.

Do the ones with Aztec codes still have magstripes as well?

Yes, standard RSP 9599 stock.

 

[DelW]

It’s Avanti ticket offices in my experience - maybe GWR too? Someone else will be able to confirm for GWR. Do they both use TTK?

Yes, standard RSP 9599 stock.

Thanks for that. Just to note, part of your reply (re older code type on CCST) seems to have been merged into the quote of my post. It wasn't something I knew!

 

[transportphoto]

Thanks for that. Just to note, part of your reply (re older code type on CCST) seems to have been merged into the quote of my post. It wasn't something I knew!

My fat fingers, fixed! But yes - I can’t remember the technical details of the differences. I know it’s been discussed on the forum before.

 

[Seehof]

Just recently I was on a Northern train from Leeds to York. My ticket (valid on all trains) was scanned on the train. When we got to Micklefield we had to return to Leeds due to a bridge strike. Back at Leeds we got on a TPE train for York and when the conductor came through I said it probably won’t scan as it has already been scanned - however it did without a problem. I can probably understand why it did but this means that the ticket is not formally cancelled when on the train which surely lends itself to repeated use.

 

[35B]

Hogwash. Nothing to do with performance related bonus. Do drivers get a bonus if the train is on time? Do signallers? Do managers get a bonus if their drivers remain competent. of course not. it is part of the job. and as for getting paid more to use technology is just union bully boy tactics, It is not hard or different to use a phone or tablet app to help improve the poor efficiency of a role. We all seem to manage it OK at home to make our lives easier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2026 ==


Commission is like overtime in any job in any industry, Nice to have but not guaranteed. Nobody should rely upon addition non guaranteed income streams to fund whatever lifestyle they may lead.

There is a whole discipline in business called business change management. It recognises that the hardest part of doing stuff in business is getting people to change how they work. Strangely, just demanding that "people do their job" doesn't tend to be effective, especially where staff are relatively unsupervised.

Balancing lost commission*, historic precedents**, and the employer's wider interests are an art - and payments per scan aren't a daft compromise. Especially where the historical pattern is that many guards have not been visible, and decades of management have not fixed the issue.

* - there is a difference between not getting commission because people don't buy tickets, and not getting it because the employer has changed policies so the chances to earn commission are reduced.
** - yes, probably bad precedents.

 

[Buzby]

They might for electronic tickets, but I think it is having the reverse effect for CCST

Exactly. On a couple of my recent long-distace trips I experienced exactly what you described. No interest in CCST whatsoever, indeed on a multi ticket journey I inadvertently left my receipt on the table and it was never scrutinised or marked up!

 

[RPI]

Depends what you consider "revenue staff" but Assistant Ticket Examiners for GWR who come under the revenue protection department get commission on ticket sales, but not PFs.

Being pedantic here (sorry ) but they're "Ticket Examiners" (Assistant got dropped in the 2014 Harmonisation), but yes, that's correct, a payment for a PF is a Sundry for which commission is not paid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2026 ==

Given the emphasis on "you MUST buy before you board" nowadays, I'm surprised there's even a mechanism for selling tickets on board, let alone paying commission. Except for the comparatively few stations that don't have a ticket office or machine, of course.

I too have noticed an increase in ticket checks in the last few months, and rail cards being asked for. Sometimes the inspector seems quite disappointed when my paper/plastic ones are produced, which merit barely a glance. I bought a ticket at the counter at a GWR station recently, and was surprised to find it was a flimsy paper one with a QR code printed on it, which was subsequently scanned on board. I thought this must be the way it's going to go, so that the checkers do get their 2ps, even with non e-tickets.

In Devon and Cornwall a very fair chunk of stations have no ticket issuing facilities!

 

[stadler]

Being pedantic here (sorry ) but they're "Ticket Examiners" (Assistant got dropped in the 2014 Harmonisation), but yes, that's correct, a payment for a PF is a Sundry for which commission is not paid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2026 ==


In Devon and Cornwall a very fair chunk of stations have no ticket issuing facilities!

Even on the North Downs Line they have many stations with no ticket machines at all (Betchworth, Dorking West, Chilworth, Gomshall, Sandhurst). Plus dozens of other stations on the North Downs Line only have card only ticket machines meaning that cash users must purchase onboard (Blackwater, Crowthorne, Dorking Deepdene, Farnborough North, North Camp, Shalford). Although from my experience it is basically a free line. Every journey i have made on the North Downs Line in the past couple years has been free as the guards never leave the rear cab. The last time i saw one leave the cab was before covid. You would think that they would want the commission but most guards do not seem bothered.

 

[DarloRich]

Why would any company pay per scan? I sort of get the percentage per ticket sale but surely checking tickets is part of the job description for TMs/guards/conductors. Another railway anachronism that needs to looked at in a wider industry context? What next 10p per per customer helped if you are a driver? Of course not it is part of the job!

Why would any company give me a bonus for exceeding sales targets or increasing efficiency or using new technology ultimately saving them money? Why? Because it is a win win.

Surely it is simply a small performance bonus? My mate works in car sales. His job is to sell cars. He is quite good at it and often gets a bonus for selling lots of cars. Why should his company pay him more for simply doing his job?

 

[Bishops]

Agreed that it doesn't take long to check a CCST, and there are still some guards who do so, but it is patently obvious that most aren't in the least bit interested in reading anything on the ticket. As soon as I start to hold out a CCST I get thanked and they move on, in considerably less time than they take to electronically scan other people's tickets. I am convinced that I could present a seat reservation CCST and most guards wouldn't notice.

Unfortunately it is the law of unintended consequences. By incentivising staff to do one thing (electronically scan bar code and etickets), you are effectively disincentivising them from doing other things (such as manually checking CCST and scanning smartcards). Why spend time doing these things when you could be using that time earning extra money scanning other tickets?

i dont use CCST often ( Mainly when i forget to buy a ticket home online) but the guards on the Bishop line take a keen interest in those with CCST

 

[tram21]

Just recently I was on a Northern train from Leeds to York. My ticket (valid on all trains) was scanned on the train. When we got to Micklefield we had to return to Leeds due to a bridge strike. Back at Leeds we got on a TPE train for York and when the conductor came through I said it probably won’t scan as it has already been scanned - however it did without a problem. I can probably understand why it did but this means that the ticket is not formally cancelled when on the train which surely lends itself to repeated use.

The ticket will still scan but will just say already scanned. They still scan it to see the passenger data/ route etc., and if there was no obvious explanation why it had already been scanned then they would ask you about it. Tickets are already scanned when there are multiple ticket checks on a long journey, or when a guard scans a ticket then revenue protection get on and do another full check. It can also be seen when and where it was scanned- if it was earlier in the trains journey then obviously you aren't doing anything wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2026 ==

Why would any company give me a bonus for exceeding sales targets or increasing efficiency or using new technology ultimately saving them money? Why? Because it is a win win.

Surely it is simply a small performance bonus? My mate works in car sales. His job is to sell cars. He is quite good at it and often gets a bonus for selling lots of cars. Why should his company pay him more for simply doing his job?

Because, as explained, getting guards to scan tickets has many benefits for the company and therefore it is good to incentivise that. And again, rightly or wrongly, guards used to receive commission from many onboard sales so they've effectively taken a pay cut, and they're job has changed from more onboard sales to more onboard checks.

 

[DarloRich]

Because, as explained, getting guards to scan tickets has many benefits for the company and therefore it is good to incentivise that. And again, rightly or wrongly, guards used to receive commission from many onboard sales so they've effectively taken a pay cut, and they're job has changed from more onboard sales to more onboard checks.

i agree - i was testing the postion of the linked poster.

 

[Krokodil]

Hogwash. Nothing to do with performance related bonus.

It's not hogwash, it is a bonus tied to performance. It has been a very effective incentive.

Do drivers get a bonus if the train is on time?

Do you want to incentivise drivers to cut corners?

 

[35B]

It's not hogwash, it is a bonus tied to performance. It has been a very effective incentive.


Do you want to incentivise drivers to cut corners?

That's an interesting argument, as it's arguably the inverse of what you describe as a very effective incentive. I disagree with @officewalla on this, but the logic cuts both ways

 

[iamraymond]

It's not hogwash, it is a bonus tied to performance. It has been a very effective incentive.


Do you want to incentivise drivers to cut corners?

I'd be astonished if they could cut a corner driving a train..

 

[DelW]

Even on the North Downs Line they have many stations with no ticket machines at all (Betchworth, Dorking West, Chilworth, Gomshall, Sandhurst). Plus dozens of other stations on the North Downs Line only have card only ticket machines meaning that cash users must purchase onboard (Blackwater, Crowthorne, Dorking Deepdene, Farnborough North, North Camp, Shalford). Although from my experience it is basically a free line. Every journey i have made on the North Downs Line in the past couple years has been free as the guards never leave the rear cab. The last time i saw one leave the cab was before covid. You would think that they would want the commission but most guards do not seem bothered.

Until a couple of months ago, I'd have agreed with you, but there seems to have been a recent increase in checking on the NDL. At least half of my journeys since the new year have had checks by the guard, and on a Guildford to Reading trip last week there were no less than five staff in the passenger saloons. Two were guards, two were in black uniforms with yellow hi-viz (BTP or private security?) and one was in a different GWR uniform. The two guards were checking everyone boarding at intermediate stations as well as those already on board at Guildford. There was no check on my mid evening trip back, but most of those on board would have joined at Reading where the barriers were in use.

 

[sprunt]

Surely it is simply a small performance bonus? My mate works in car sales. His job is to sell cars. He is quite good at it and often gets a bonus for selling lots of cars. Why should his company pay him more for simply doing his job?

A member of train staff being bothered to walk up and down the train and check people's tickets isn't being better at the job in the same way that a sales person converting more leads into sales is.

 

[Krokodil]

That's an interesting argument, as it's arguably the inverse of what you describe as a very effective incentive. I disagree with @officewalla on this, but the logic cuts both ways

I don't know what you're getting at? Incentivising a member of commercial staff (which is the hat the conductor has on at that moment) to work harder brings benefits to the company and shouldn't add risks. Incentivising a driver based on timekeeping will only have a negative effect on safety - look at the effect that has on delivery drivers.

I'd be astonished if they could cut a corner driving a train..

Braking later and harder, risking overshoots to make up a few seconds. Being distracted by a delay etc.