Merseyrail 777 introduction

[Ellis101]

So are there enough drivers trained to use SDO? If not, when are there expected to be enough SDO trained drivers?

If there are (or soon will be) sufficient SDO trained drivers, what needs to be done before SDO can start to be used?

Is ORR permission required? If so, has it been sought? If is required but has yet to be sought why not?

Nobody knows anymore it's been nearly 2 years since I saw the "temporary" Northern Line timetable switch being advertised at Liverpool Central.

But I guess we'll just have to keep paying for short formed services, a reduction in services after 8pm and the residents of Cressington will have to put up with a 50% reduction in services whenever public transit is in its highest demand.

 

[Djgr]

Nobody knows anymore it's been nearly 2 years since I saw the "temporary" Northern Line timetable switch being advertised at Liverpool Central.

But I guess we'll just have to keep paying for short formed services, a reduction in services after 8pm and the residents of Cressington will have to put up with a 50% reduction in services whenever public transit is in its highest demand.

Clearly unlucky for Cressington residents. On the other hand, if Cressington is your local station, you've probably also enjoyed a fair amount of good fortune in your life!

 

[danbarjon]

The Headbolt Line customers are not impressed at all with the last 2 days, train fault yesterday morning and today a systemwide fault caused by points at Kirkdale. I was on a train yesterday that broke down at Kirkby and had to use 3rd rail from Kirkby. I think patience will be starting to wear thin...

 

[Djgr]

The Headbolt Line customers are not impressed at all with the last 2 days, train fault yesterday morning and today a systemwide fault caused by points at Kirkdale. I was on a train yesterday that broke down at Kirkby and had to use 3rd rail from Kirkby. I think patience will be starting to wear thin...

The latest cancellations figures released Oct to Dec 2025 show Merseyrail at 2.6%, which places it as 6th best TOC in the UK. Sure down on a few years back but much better than Northern, say, which is at 4.2%.

 

[danbarjon]

The latest cancellations figures released Oct to Dec 2025 show Merseyrail at 2.6%, which places it as 6th best TOC in the UK. Sure down on a few years back but much better than Northern, say, which is at 4.2%.

True but with those figures I'm sure if we just focused on the Liverpool City Region Northern's would be lower...

 

[Ellis101]

The Headbolt Line customers are not impressed at all with the last 2 days, train fault yesterday morning and today a systemwide fault caused by points at Kirkdale. I was on a train yesterday that broke down at Kirkby and had to use 3rd rail from Kirkby. I think patience will be starting to wear thin...

Lasted for all day as well!

 

[Djgr]

True but with those figures I'm sure if we just focused on the Liverpool City Region Northern's

The March 2026 figures for "Merseyrail City lines" appears to be 2.7%. So still worse!

Not sure what this covers but certainly not Meols Cop, probably not Rainford. Not sure about Liverpool to Warrington, which certainly seems to get a clobbering from Northern.

 

[danbarjon]

Lasted for all day as well!

Yes it was very annoying, many commuters were not impressed either as the trains to Ormskirk where rammed and to top it off we drove past the some of the battery units parked at Kirkdale so you can imagine why people were so annoyed.

 

[baldyman26]

If there is a points failure there isn't much Merseyrail can do.

 

[Class450/4DES]

Yes it was very annoying, many commuters were not impressed either as the trains to Ormskirk where rammed and to top it off we drove past the some of the battery units parked at Kirkdale so you can imagine why people were so annoyed.

Were they all 4 coaches long? I never was able to see 8 coach trains while I was there a few weeks ago and trains were quite busy.

 

[jamesst]

If there is a points failure there isn't much Merseyrail can do.

You can't say sensible things like that on this forum, its those dastardly 777s!!!

 

[baldyman26]

Obviously the 777 caused it !

 

[danbarjon]

I'm not insinuating the 777 had anything to do with it but my original post was referring to the frustration I've heard on the trains from Headbolt commuters and passengers, one said she's going to start taking the car in so things must be going very well...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2026 ==

Were they all 4 coaches long? I never was able to see 8 coach trains while I was there a few weeks ago and trains were quite busy.

I believe every other diagram other than the 1521 HNX to OMS was a 4 car, but there was a need for extra capacity as Headbolt Lane customers and Ormskirk (including all stations in-between both destinations) passengers were all sent onto a 4 car units

 

[Class450/4DES]

I believe every other diagram other than the 1521 HNX to OMS was a 4 car, but there was a need for extra capacity as Headbolt Lane customers and Ormskirk (including all stations in-between both destinations) passengers were all sent onto a 4 car units

They really need to add more coaches on the trains on that route, unless there is a reason they cant. It would come in handy when a train breaks down too as when a wiper broke on 777039 on the 29th of March, people had to cram onto the next train. There are 8 car markers at the stations though, so they could effectively run down on those lines. Here's a screenshot of one at Orrell Park in one of my videos for proof.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

They really need to add more coaches on the trains on that route, unless there is a reason they cant. It would come in handy when a train breaks down too as when a wiper broke on 777039 on the 29th of March, people had to cram onto the next train. There are 8 car markers at the stations though, so they could effectively run down on those lines. Here's a screenshot of one at Orrell Park in one of my videos for proof.View attachment 202415

Currently the main issue is with the selective door operation required for Cressington, which doesn't fit 8 carriages.
When they have been running 8 car services on the Ormskirk line, they have had to skip Cressington.

The only reason the Ormskirk services are going to Hunts Cross instead of the Southports is so that some Southport services can be 8 carriages long.

 

[507 001]

I don’t think it’s the case the 777s are all that bad anymore. They are becoming much more reliable and that was always the main issue with them.

Improved reliability won’t sort out the pretty huge design flaws with them though, will it?

 

[Ellis101]

Yes it was very annoying, many commuters were not impressed either as the trains to Ormskirk where rammed and to top it off we drove past the some of the battery units parked at Kirkdale so you can imagine why people were so annoyed.

I'm not insinuating the 777 had anything to do with it but my original post was referring to the frustration I've heard on the trains from Headbolt commuters and passengers, one said she's going to start taking the car in so things must be going very well...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2026 ==


I believe every other diagram other than the 1521 HNX to OMS was a 4 car, but there was a need for extra capacity as Headbolt Lane customers and Ormskirk (including all stations in-between both destinations) passengers were all sent onto a 4 car units

I know someone who works in the office commutes regularly on Merseyrail and had done for over a year until recently, they have gone out of their way to learn to drive because majority of the time in the morning peak a hunts cross train will be physically and completely full by St Michaels.

They really need to add more coaches on the trains on that route, unless there is a reason they cant. It would come in handy when a train breaks down too as when a wiper broke on 777039 on the 29th of March, people had to cram onto the next train. There are 8 car markers at the stations though, so they could effectively run down on those lines. Here's a screenshot of one at Orrell Park in one of my videos for proof.View attachment 202415

I just find it incredible how for the grand national they can make every or almost every Ormskirk and Southport service 8 cars long yet regular commuters are left with the substandard 4 cars during peak times.

Did they hire "agency train drivers" or something?? (No they didn't they don't exist as you cannot learn to drive a train in a few days)

They clearly have the staff for 8 car running so whats going on?

 

[bramling]

I know someone who works in the office commutes regularly on Merseyrail and had done for over a year until recently, they have gone out of their way to learn to drive because majority of the time in the morning peak a hunts cross train will be physically and completely full by St Michaels.




I just find it incredible how for the grand national they can make every or almost every Ormskirk and Southport service 8 cars long yet regular commuters are left with the substandard 4 cars during peak times.

Did they hire "agency train drivers" or something?? (No they didn't they don't exist as you cannot learn to drive a train in a few days)

They clearly have the staff for 8 car running so whats going on?

The issue isn’t staffing, but simply that the fleet isn’t sized to support more than a token amount of 8-car working, exacerbated by reliability not being as solid as hoped for.

Whilst it may be possible to turn out increased numbers of 8-car trains for events, this isn’t viable on a daily basis as quite simply there isn’t enough spare stock to run 8-car trains and keep up with maintenance.

 

[Tramfan]

Also, I can only see 1 Southport diagram on the Saturday that was an 8 car, and just a single trip on the Thursday/Friday, which looked to be a positioning move as the set ended up on the Aintree shuttles

 

[Ellis101]

Also, I can only see 1 Southport diagram on the Saturday that was an 8 car, and just a single trip on the Thursday/Friday, which looked to be a positioning move as the set ended up on the Aintree shuttles

My apologies for the lack of clarity/overexaggeration. I’ve discovered that on Saturday 11 unique eight-car diagrams were run.



Hunts Cross to Southport on a 15-minute frequency requires ten units. Therefore, you could easily operate three of the four trains per hour from Hunts Cross to Southport with eight cars during peak times, as was standard before the Cressington versus 777 SDO Showdown.



This would leave three eight-car diagrams available for swaps. I’d assume this is Merseyrail’s plan but perhaps we should give them another two years!

 

[Pacef8]

Track inspection all trains cancelled st Hamilton square for a hour . At 4pm ok not the trains but they then run fast to chester and avoid all the other stops . I saw students physically walking !

 

[Class450/4DES]

Currently the main issue is with the selective door operation required for Cressington, which doesn't fit 8 carriages.
When they have been running 8 car services on the Ormskirk line, they have had to skip Cressington.

The only reason the Ormskirk services are going to Hunts Cross instead of the Southports is so that some Southport services can be 8 carriages long.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the information!

 

[Sam 76]

Improved reliability won’t sort out the pretty huge design flaws with them though, will it?

It’s all personal preference on the design floors.

I think the PIS could do with some work, but personally I think when you look at the level boarding and accessibility areas the flaws that exist are small compared to the pros.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s all personal preference on the design floors.

I think the PIS could do with some work, but personally I think when you look at the level boarding and accessibility areas the flaws that exist are small compared to the pros.

Level boarding is a killer app certainly (as it were) but the interior is deeply flawed in just about every way, from the PIS to the seats and everything else. It's probably the easiest thing to fix, though, and fixing the PIS is just software (it works much better on the Tyne and Wear units).

The one thing they'd struggle to fix is the clumsy door layout* which causes huge problems at Liverpool Central. I think you'd have to fix Liverpool Central to fix that.

* Which wasn't necessary in the end as they extended the platforms anyway - the original idea of it was that the back of an 8 car could hang off if the outermost door was in the middle rather than at the outer third position.

 

[Djgr]

Level boarding is a killer app certainly (as it were) but the interior is deeply flawed in just about every way, from the PIS to the seats and everything else. It's probably the easiest thing to fix, though, and fixing the PIS is just software (it works much better on the Tyne and Wear units).

The one thing they'd struggle to fix is the clumsy door layout* which causes huge problems at Liverpool Central. I think you'd have to fix Liverpool Central to fix that.

* Which wasn't necessary in the end as they extended the platforms anyway - the original idea of it was that the back of an 8 car could hang off if the outermost door was in the middle rather than at the outer third position.

I travel on Merseyrail every week and don't believe that the vast majority of passengers perceive any of these issues. Indeed I doubt if many even glance at the PIS.

One tremendous advantage is the almost constant visibility and availability of on train staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travel on Merseyrail every week and don't believe that the vast majority of passengers perceive any of these issues. Indeed I doubt if many even glance at the PIS.

That's no excuse for the PIS to be so bad. It's an accessibility thing. And comments about the rock-hard seats are not rare (though the seat shape is more of a tall person issue).

One tremendous advantage is the almost constant visibility and availability of on train staff.

That's a contractual/employer relations/management thing, not a 777 thing. Since the controls were fitted in the late 90s it's always been possible to work 50x from the saloon. It's just not very often actually been done presumably because the staff preferred working them from the cab - that just isn't possible on a 777.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The one thing they'd struggle to fix is the clumsy door layout* which causes huge problems at Liverpool Central. I think you'd have to fix Liverpool Central to fix that.

It only causes problems because everyone stands around at the bottom of the escalators and they don't move down the platform.

The only other observation seems to be that people won't use the nearest door if it is in another carriage. If you're seated in the bays at the inner end of the driving cars then your nearest door is in the next carriage. But that's a people thing, not anything else. Six sets of double doors on a 60m train is sufficient.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I took the train fom Chester to Liverpool last night (afer the fire at James Street was out). The announcement on board board before leaving was 'this train will not be calling at Capenhurst' and then...we called at Capenhurst!

 

[Polarbear]

I took the train fom Chester to Liverpool last night (afer the fire at James Street was out). The announcement on board board before leaving was 'this train will not be calling at Capenhurst' and then...we called at Capenhurst!

That happens more often than it should. Possibly worse is the opposite scenario, where consistent announcements assure that a call will be made at Capenhurst, only for the train to whizz through at 70mph!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It only causes problems because everyone stands around at the bottom of the escalators and they don't move down the platform.

No, it causes problems with alighting from arrivals because one of those doors is opposite a narrow part of the platform, which has been made worse by the installation of the new lift.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2026 ==

The only other observation seems to be that people won't use the nearest door if it is in another carriage. If you're seated in the bays at the inner end of the driving cars then your nearest door is in the next carriage. But that's a people thing, not anything else. Six sets of double doors on a 60m train is sufficient.

It's about 65m.

But I'd disagree. In Germany three sets of doors per vehicle side on such a train is the norm. Same (proportionally) with the Lizzie and the absolutely superb S8s on the Met.