Interesting then if they are on p3 as I doubt LNWR would ever serve that platform unless they want to take over the Crewe via Stockport stopper too which I find doubtful. If they just wanted to turn back at Wilmslow for whatever reason, Id have thought it more likely they still use 1/2 as they'd not be in the way of any fast trains going towards Stockport nor would they ever work via Stockport as a diversion.
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Potential new service from Birmingham to Manchester Airport
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The Planner
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Depends on what is shut. If its towards Cheadle Hulme then you don't want to be hanging about on the Styal platforms.
In that instance though, I'd imagine they'd do what tfw do and turn back at Crewe. Am I also not correct in saying any possession towards Cheadle Hulme also tends to possess Wilmslow 3&4?
From what I've heard, and what's on LNR website. It's gonna be staring at the December time table change and I believe it is taking over the hourly stopper run by northern
Destination Manchester
Read our exciting proposal for our trains to begin serving Manchester for the first time.
I've also heard it from a couple northern Piccadilly guards that they're under the impression they won't be running south from the airport anymore.
The Planner
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No. Normally they are kept open unless they need to be part of a possession for that reason.
Yes
absolutelymilk
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Just to clarify, so the Crewe to Piccadilly stopping service is being replaced by a Birmingham to Manchester Airport stopper? Aside from the benefit of using otherwise unused 350s, is this likely to benefit other services on Birmingham to Manchester routes or will there not be much difference?
Crewe to Piccadilly via Stockport is to remain unaffected. As I understand it, the Crewe to Piccadilly via airport is being split with northern running the leg between the airport and Piccadilly and LNWR running the leg between Crewe and the airport.
I imagine LNWR will be keen to offer cheap Birmingham - Manchester tickets changing at airport or Wilmslow, likely for a northern service on to Piccadilly, to compete with XC in a similar way to what they've done with Manchester to London via TFW changing at Crewe. Will be nice to see some better competition to XC anyway. I believe they are expecting it to be a very busy service when it starts.
absolutelymilk
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Ah that's great news, thanks. Agree it will be very busy, I would definitely consider using it just to avoid XC!
Just a shame they're only going to be running single sets. Time will only tell whether they'll suffice.
absolutelymilk
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Are there enough 350s to run double sets or have all the rest been scrapped
Not sure though id suspect route is more likely a limiting factor as assuming it takes over the current northern service stops, aldery edge certainly can't take 8 cars and has never had any kind of sdo before I don't believe. Not sure of the other stops. It's also been mentioned upthread that depending on what route it takes (i.e whether it goes via stoke), platform lengths there become an issue too.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Back in the day, I was on a Central service (ex-Derby) from Crewe to the Airport, and en route the Styal line became blocked for some emergency reason.
We only realised something was wrong when the train terminated at Wilmslow P3 as there was no access towards the Airport.
FNW paid for a taxi to the airport.
I am beginning to have misgivings about this service. It looks as though there is a significant risk of importing any disruptions or delays in the W Midlands onto the Crewe to the Airport trains - which will be being used by people connecting off Avanti and TfW services. I doubt they will have much recovery time built in, unless it is in platform 1 at Crewe, so it will be worse than the current self-contained shuttle.
The thought of these turning back at Crewe (where there is no other direct service to the Airport, or even one chnanging at Wilmslow) leaving pax to go via Piccadilly - losing even more time - is pretty grim.
On the other hand, doubling the direct airport service would have been excellent: Better connections for people off the WCML, a more reliable service (you only lose 1/2 hr if one is cancelled,) more frequent trains for people leaving the airport after unpredictable baggage reclaim times etc. Pity it won't work.
The thought of these turning back at Crewe (where there is no other direct service to the Airport, or even one chnanging at Wilmslow) leaving pax to go via Piccadilly - losing even more time - is pretty grim.
On the other hand, doubling the direct airport service would have been excellent: Better connections for people off the WCML, a more reliable service (you only lose 1/2 hr if one is cancelled,) more frequent trains for people leaving the airport after unpredictable baggage reclaim times etc. Pity it won't work.
The connections off the existing Crewe dropper are awful. People for the tfw usually change at Piccadilly from the airport for example as the connection is of the xx.04 Scottish rather than the xx.01 Crewe. Most of the passengers in my experience going to Crewe are changing for the derby train or one for lnwr
Andrew E said:
On the other hand, doubling the direct airport service would have been excellent: Better connections for people off the WCML, a more reliable service (you only lose 1/2 hr if one is cancelled,) more frequent trains for people leaving the airport after unpredictable baggage reclaim times etc. Pity it won't work.
I wholeheartedly agree. Given how expensive it is to drop off, pick up or park at the airport improving the public transport options seemed a no brainer. Such a wasted opportunity.
On the other hand, doubling the direct airport service would have been excellent: Better connections for people off the WCML, a more reliable service (you only lose 1/2 hr if one is cancelled,) more frequent trains for people leaving the airport after unpredictable baggage reclaim times etc. Pity it won't work.
I wholeheartedly agree. Given how expensive it is to drop off, pick up or park at the airport improving the public transport options seemed a no brainer. Such a wasted opportunity.
Iskra
Established Member
Could carriages be taken out of spare units to make 5 or 6 carriage formations instead? Is that technically possible?
Even having the second service run as far as willmslow from the airport still provides more connection opportunities
exactly. Are there any services (presumably relatively local, so not TPE) which could run to Wilmslow and back in their turn-round time? If traincrew are using the layover for a break maybe a local driver could do this shuttle with a succession of units.
Only one I could maybe think of would be the tpe Redcar, though they get locked and cleaned in the station at the airport. Maybe the new Piccadilly - airport stopper could, maybe interwork with alderly edge services as the timings might be a bit tight for just one diagram otherwise. Only other maybe would be extending the Liverpool and giving it a longer dwell at Wilmslow as the current 7 minutes at airport can be a little unreliable at times. Only limit is I don't think Wilmslow sidings take 6 cars
There are. But double sets will not be allowed.
UDS isn't authorised on any of the stations this service is due to call at north of Wolverhampton.
Anything longer than a 4 car would foul Stone Junction.
Shame really. Luggage can quickly fill trains at the airport at times.
absolutelymilk
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From the link in post 34, it suggests the service would call at Willenhall and Darlaston, is that right? Looks like there would be 17 intermediate stations on the route if it stopped at all of them (assuming it went Airport -> Crewe -> Stoke -> Stafford -> Wolverhampton -> Willenhall -> Birmingham NS), I wonder if it will serve them all?
That is my understanding. However I may be wrong. I also believe it is taking on alderly edge, holmes chapel and sandbach. I'm not sure if you counted those too.
it's a bit academic really. Before Covid there were either 8-car trains Birmingham to Liverpool or 4-cars twice an hour... now virtually all are just 4-car sets (just 4 eights today on a half-hourly timetable 0600-2000!) If LNR can't provide any more capacity on that well-established heavily used route then there is no point guessing if there will be more than 4 cars available for MIA!
alex17595
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It's not really an end to end service, any passenger going to the airport will probably be directed by journey planners on to a Liverpool with a change at Crewe as it will be so much faster.
There is some demand from Stoke to the airport and places like Sandbach/Homes Chapel.
I suspect it will mainly be used by people with cheap advances going Birmingham - Manchester Airport or people traveling from Stoke/Stafford to Birmingham.
There is some demand from Stoke to the airport and places like Sandbach/Homes Chapel.
I suspect it will mainly be used by people with cheap advances going Birmingham - Manchester Airport or people traveling from Stoke/Stafford to Birmingham.
I'm not guessing.
The Liverpool service has been the equivalent of 8 cars per hour for several years now, other than a brief period of 730/2 usage. Be that a double set 1tph or single set 2tph.
There could be a case for having the semi fast (xx:04 BHM) as a double set, but outside of events the current setup provides what is necessary - 730s were almost never full when used.
But this is the thread about the airport service, which cannot run as a double set, as previously mentioned, due to Stone and lack of UDS operation at other stations.
As this service essentially plugs several holes, it isn't likely to be the most efficient use. Ideally, a 2nd tph from Stafford to Airport would be found (given the original is to provide a 2nd tph Wolves-New St via Darlaston/Willenhall). This could help with, and encourage, high patronage through higher frequency.
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I think the key flows will be;
Birmingham - Tame Bridge/Darlaston/Willenhall
Stafford/Stone - Stoke
Stoke/Crewe - Airport
Based on previous usage on that route.
I suspect it'll be quite popular end to end as with luggage. A lot of passengers are happy to take a longer train, or wait longer, if it means as few changes as possible or even better direct. No one wants to be running around Crewe with several big bags and would rather go direct.
Aside from some of the other points mentioned, they would also need to be 4-car to allow for permissive working at Manchester Airport as the curtailed Northern service would likely need to arrive on the B end.
I don't believe Alderley Edge is a proposed call
Looking at the existing timetable, towards Manchester I suspect platform 1 is achievable by extending the existing WMT path, but would only be the minimum 2 minute dwell. On the way back I think platform 1 would be used by Northern until it departs at xx:46. I doubt WMT would want to use the existing Northern path as it sits at Wilmslow for a while and also does not give them a decent turnround at the Airport. So the only other plausible gap is to run later but before the next Avanti arriving at Wilmslow (to Manchester). That only leaves platform 5 available at Crewe which would be interesting. Or you'd have to run even later but I imagine that loses a path further south to Birmingham.
Depends, they might be able to make it work with the existing large gap on p1, or utilising the space it is using now for route learning on p4. Plus at some point in the nearish future, the platforms are getting extended. Whether that will allow for a 4 and and 8 to be stacked however I'm unsure. However, 8 car is off the table sadly for many other reasons.
Would be strange if it isn't. I don't know how alderly edge will take to loosing one of its southbound trains every hour plus it's direct airport connection
amahy
Member
If the hourly Piccadilly to Crewe via Airport is getting curtailed at the Airport, what will happen to Styal? I ask, because Styal is currently managed by Northern, which wouldn't make much sense if no Northern services will serve there any more. Also, I'm not sure the people of Styal will be too happy, losing their direct train to central Manchester.