Fantasy - a cheaper way to align NPR and HS2 in Manchester

[squingo44]

If a Manchester Piccadilly station is built as an underground through station then technically it's not necessary for the Liverpool-Manchester Railway to go to either Warrington Bank Quay (for connections to the WCML) or Manchester Airport, since both could be provided by interchange at Manchester Piccadilly. If such a station were build parallel to the existing surface station, as seems overwhelmingly likely, we could alter the proposed alignment to follow Chat Moss instead of the HS2 tunnel, and then continue to Yorkshire via Guide Bridge. This feels like it might be a cheaper way to achieve 4-way interchange at Manchester Piccadilly. 4-tracking existing alignments where there's already space should be cheaper, and this approach produces better connectivity between Manchester and Scotland.

HS2 up to Manchester would stay the same, and NPR east to Leeds would tunnel as far as Gorton Junction. Both NPR and HS2 would share a tunnel northeast of Piccadilly to the Chat Moss Line, which would be 4-tracked from Salford to Newton-le-Willows. The Golborne Link would be reinstated, connecting directly to Manchester rather than Crewe. I think an express bypass of Lea Green and Whiston makes sense, that section of the Chat Moss Line would be harder to quadruple. It would also create the possibility of chords connecting Liverpool express services to the WCML both northbound and southbound, via Winwick Junction and the gap between Widnes and Penketh respectively. A southeast-facing chord between the Chat Moss Line and the West Coast Main Line at Newton-le-Willows would provide a direct connection between Chester and Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester Piccadilly.

This would mean that the Liverpool-Manchester Railway loses direct access to Manchester Airport. But the Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly station could run a shuttle service, with turnbacks at the northern and southern tunnel portals of the HS2 alignment. With a fully accessible station and cross-platform interchange, a shuttle service running between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport could serve all passengers heading to and from Manchester Airport. Or you could run direct services from elsewhere to Manchester Airport, eroding the segregation between the High Speed services and the rest of the network.

 

[AlexSJW]

There are views to have lines dedicated to passenger or freight into Liverpool. Chat Moss looks to become predominantly freight, as the proposed new freight terminal at St.Helens and the route into the container terminal are via Chat Moss.

 

[squingo44]

There are views to have lines dedicated to passenger or freight into Liverpool. Chat Moss looks to become predominantly freight, as the proposed new freight terminal at St.Helens and the route into the container terminal are via Chat Moss.

There should be space to 4-track it all the way from Salford to St. Helens! Then a slow line can support freight and stopping services, and a fast line can support intercity, regional, and high speed services.

I know that mixed-use railways aren’t the optimal solution, but this approach should be an affordable way to implement both NPR and HS2 (crucially, with a northward connection from Manchester to Scotland). The route could be improved in the future with strategic interventions creating better, segregated, high-speed alignments. But they don’t necessarily have to be part of the initial capex budget which so often proves to be the hurdle for British infrastructure projects. The modularity of this proposal is a feature, not a bug.

 

[The Planner]

There are views to have lines dedicated to passenger or freight into Liverpool. Chat Moss looks to become predominantly freight, as the proposed new freight terminal at St.Helens and the route into the container terminal are via Chat Moss.

St Helens? Don't you mean Newton le Willows?

 

[Topological]

All interesting, but the answer is just reversal at Piccadilly.

There is an obsession in some parts with denying Liverpool (and other NPR destinations) a meaningful connection to Manchester Airport. Whether Liverpool likes to admit it, or not, the major global airport is Manchester and that is the one that needs to be connected to the region. I admit I am obsessed with ensuring that the North West does not miss out on global connectivity, but it should be no surprise that so much global investment is concentrated in Manchester at the moment. Think how quick Liverpool to Manchester Airport would actually be compared to now.

The NPR alignment proposed is one of the things that the mayors have got right.

 

[lowe1409]

Severing direct airport links will never be popular for as long as people wish to continue traveling with luggage. Generally those people like to have as simple a journey as possible hence why other cities in the north have cried about loosing direct airport services despite having cross platform interchanges if not same platform for them.

 

[Bald Rick]

An underground Piccadilly station is going to be astronomically more expensive than the original HS2 / NPR proposal, so I don’t see how this can be cheaper from the off.

There’s also a reason why Chat Moss was difficult to engineer 200 years ago, and tunnelling isn’t an easy way to solve it.

 

[lowe1409]

An underground Piccadilly station is going to be astronomically more expensive than the original HS2 / NPR proposal, so I don’t see how this can be cheaper from the off.

There’s also a reason why Chat Moss was dificult to engineer 200 years ago, and tunnelling isn’t an easy way to solve it.

Would chat moss not be an easier job now though as correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't most of the land not been drained?

 

[Halifaxlad]

All interesting, but the answer is just reversal at Piccadilly.

There is an obsession in some parts with denying Liverpool (and other NPR destinations) a meaningful connection to Manchester Airport. Whether Liverpool likes to admit it, or not, the major global airport is Manchester and that is the one that needs to be connected to the region. I admit I am obsessed with ensuring that the North West does not miss out on global connectivity, but it should be no surprise that so much global investment is concentrated in Manchester at the moment. Think how quick Liverpool to Manchester Airport would actually be compared to now.

The NPR alignment proposed is one of the things that the mayors have got right.

Why isn't stopping or interchanging at Manchester first considered to be a "meaningful" connection to Manchester Airport ?

How is stopping at a station upon the other side of the M56 before interchanging to a tram or bus for a 5 minute journey "meaningful" ?

The NPR alignment is awful because it was designed by HS2!

 

[lowe1409]

Why isn't stopping or interchanging at Manchester first considered to be a "meaningful" connection to Manchester Airport ?

How is stopping at a station upon the other side of the M56 before interchanging to a tram or bus for a 5 minute journey "meaningful" ?

The NPR alignment is awful because it was designed by HS2!

I agree, the HS2 station was incredibly poorly located. More like it was designed as a glorified parkway station for north east Cheshire with very little thought for connectivity other than via road. Though a five minute tram connection may be more desirable than the present 10-15 minutes walk to T2 from the existing station depending on what end of the terminal you wish to be at.

 

[squingo44]

An underground Piccadilly station is going to be astronomically more expensive than the original HS2 / NPR proposal, so I don’t see how this can be cheaper from the off.

There’s also a reason why Chat Moss was difficult to engineer 200 years ago, and tunnelling isn’t an easy way to solve it.

This is assuming that an underground through station at Manchester will be built. £5-10 billiion and half a decade are worthwhile costs in my book, since a much greater cost would have to be paid down the line to make up for the lack of connectivity and lack of capacity at a terminus station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2026 ==

I agree, the HS2 station was incredibly poorly located. More like it was designed as a glorified parkway station for north east Cheshire with very little thought for connectivity other than via road. Though a five minute tram connection may be more desirable than the present 10-15 minutes walk to T2 from the existing station depending on what end of the terminal you wish to be at.

In my opinion, it will be fine because in the future we can expand Manchester Airport to better integrate with the new station. In an ideal world we would redirect the M56, or convert it into an A road and use the space freed up along the alignment to build a surface-level commuter railway from Manchester Airport to the city centre. In other words, we can build the Manchester Airport station as-is and build around it in future.

 

[AlexSJW]

St Helens? Don't you mean Newton le Willows?

Parkside.

 

[lowe1409]

This is assuming that an underground through station at Manchester will be built. £5-10 billiion and half a decade are worthwhile costs in my book, since a much greater cost would have to be paid down the line to make up for the lack of connectivity and lack of capacity at a terminus station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2026 ==


In my opinion, it will be fine because in the future we can expand Manchester Airport to better integrate with the new station. In an ideal world we would redirect the M56, or convert it into an A road and use the space freed up along the alignment to build a surface-level commuter railway from Manchester Airport to the city centre. In other words, we can build the Manchester Airport station as-is and build around it in future.

You referring to the M56 spur? Because if you was to link the existing station on the styal line up with the new high speed one, you would be able to use that for commuter services if all the long distance is moved away to the new high speed station. Would also help compensate Wilmslow and North east Cheshire as a whole for a reduction in classic London services by giving them decent connections to the new high speed one.

Surely though there must be scope to reduce the width of the spur anyway to facilitate this as even with the traffic problems with the new T2 layout, I've never seen traffic queuing on that motorway.

 

[AlexSJW]

An underground Piccadilly station is going to be astronomically more expensive than the original HS2 / NPR proposal, so I don’t see how this can be cheaper from the off.

There is no need to have an underground station for NPR in Manchester. Tunnels thru the city but no expensive underground and restrictive station.

 

[Topological]

There is no need to have an underground station for NPR in Manchester. Tunnels thru the city but no expensive underground and restrictive station.

Where are you putting this station?

Manchester Piccadilly is the obvious location for the station, but has a canal immediately to the North, large amounts of development to the East and of course the railway itself to the West and South. The line (if going through) needs to be much lower than the current railway at Piccadilly.

I am a strong advocate for the proposed terminus at the same level as the existing Piccadilly station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2026 ==

In my opinion, it will be fine because in the future we can expand Manchester Airport to better integrate with the new station. In an ideal world we would redirect the M56, or convert it into an A road and use the space freed up along the alignment to build a surface-level commuter railway from Manchester Airport to the city centre. In other words, we can build the Manchester Airport station as-is and build around it in future.

That should be fine.

For those complaining about this for Liverpool on the new HS line. Liverpool to Manchester Airport* will be less than 30 minutes. So even with the connection to the terminal, the journey will be significantly faster than it is at the moment.

Remember most flights now use Terminal 2, which is on the HS side of the airport and quite a long way from the Airport transport hub.

 

[squingo44]

You referring to the M56 spur? Because if you was to link the existing station on the styal line up with the new high speed one, you would be able to use that for commuter services if all the long distance is moved away to the new high speed station. Would also help compensate Wilmslow and North east Cheshire as a whole for a reduction in classic London services by giving them decent connections to the new high speed one.

Surely though there must be scope to reduce the width of the spur anyway to facilitate this as even with the traffic problems with the new T2 layout, I've never seen traffic queuing on that motorway.

I was referring to building a new commuter railway along the alignment of the M56 spur, through Wythenshaw, Didsbury and Moss Side, rather than connecting through to the Styal Line.

 

[lowe1409]

Where are you putting this station?

Manchester Piccadilly is the obvious location for the station, but has a canal immediately to the North, large amounts of development to the East and of course the railway itself to the West and South. The line (if going through) needs to be much lower than the current railway at Piccadilly.

I am a strong advocate for the proposed terminus at the same level as the existing Piccadilly station.

To the east of the station, there's some network rail buildings im sure I remember hearing were supposed to be relocated. The rest are car parks which isn't exactly ideal land use next to a major city centre terminus. Even a station at the same level will require demolition works on some of those buildings. Why not bury it at the same time and leave room to dig a tunnel on the other side?

 

[AlexSJW]

All interesting, but the answer is just reversal at Piccadilly.

There is an obsession in some parts with denying Liverpool (and other NPR destinations) a meaningful connection to Manchester Airport. Whether Liverpool likes to admit it, or not, the major global airport is Manchester and that is the one that needs to be connected to the region. I admit I am obsessed with ensuring that the North West does not miss out on global connectivity, but it should be no surprise that so much global investment is concentrated in Manchester at the moment. Think how quick Liverpool to Manchester Airport would actually be compared to now.

The NPR alignment proposed is one of the things that the mayors have got right.

All of the NW of England and beyond need quick and easy access to both John Lennon and Ringway airports. John Lennon is easy as the WCML, Merseyrail Metro, and Manchester (trans Peninne) lines are adjacent. The Warrington to Altrincham line needs recommissioning to access Ringway.

 

[Topological]

To the east of the station, there's some network rail buildings im sure I remember hearing were supposed to be relocated. The rest are car parks which isn't exactly ideal land use next to a major city centre terminus. Even a station at the same level will require demolition works on some of those buildings. Why not bury it at the same time and leave room to dig a tunnel on the other side?

That is where the station is going. But without having to dig the whole thing out.

If you want to go anywhere "through" then even if the station is not in a tunnel, it is going to have to be in a deep box. There is just no sense in all the excavation when reversing can be done in a few minutes.

Solving any "congestion" issues is done by using a flying junction (as planned) in the southern throat.

 

[lowe1409]

All of the NW of England and beyond need quick and easy access to both John Lennon and Ringway airports. John Lennon is easy as the WCML, Merseyrail Metro, and Manchester (trans Peninne) lines are adjacent. The Warrington to Altrincham line needs recommissioning to access Ringway.

Warrington to Altrincham though I feel would be much better being reopened for tram train if it was to ever be reopened. Especially given that CLC is in long term aspirations for metrolink conversion anyway. The other route via lymm also would be unlikely considering bank quay lower level is supposedly being considered for NPR I believe

 

[Topological]

Warrington to Altrincham though I feel would be much better being reopened for tram train if it was to ever be reopened. Especially given that CLC is in long term aspirations for metrolink conversion anyway. The other route via lymm also would be unlikely considering bank quay lower level is supposedly being considered for NPR I believe

Yes.

Liverpool needs the high-speed line. We just have to build the thing.

Then you have all the capacity of the CLC and Chat Moss to serve the communities on the routes. That will be transformational.

 

[AlexSJW]

Warrington to Altrincham though I feel would be much better being reopened for tram train if it was to ever be reopened. Especially given that CLC is in long term aspirations for metrolink conversion anyway. The other route via lymm also would be unlikely considering bank quay lower level is supposedly being considered for NPR I believe

All is up in the air regarding NPR and access to airports. CLC was mentioned as the backbone for NPR.

 

[lowe1409]

That is where the station is going. But without having to dig the whole thing out.

If you want to go anywhere "through" then even if the station is not in a tunnel, it is going to have to be in a deep box. There is just no sense in all the excavation when reversing can be done in a few minutes.

Solving any "congestion" issues is done by using a flying junction (as planned) in the southern throat.

Reversals are never going to be reliable, not quick given the train lengths being talked about. A 3 car 323 is timetabled 4 minutes to turn around at MIA on the Crewe workings, it is unreliable and a longer train is going to take much longer for train crew to swap ends. Timetable says 10 minutes to turn around reliably with longer trains and you may aswel just change trains and not offer through services which will also be reliably unpopular.

All is up in the air regarding NPR and access to airports. CLC was mentioned as the backbone for NPR

Which would be disastrous imo. CLC has so much potential for commuters and local traffic

 

[Topological]

Reversals are never going to be reliable, not quick given the train lengths being talked about. A 3 car 323 is timetabled 4 minutes to turn around at MIA on the Crewe workings, it is unreliable and a longer train is going to take much longer for train crew to swap ends. Timetable says 10 minutes to turn around reliably with longer trains and you may aswel just change trains and not offer through services which will also be reliably unpopular.

Which would be disastrous imo. CLC has so much potential for commuters and local traffic

I think it would have to be a crew swap at Piccadilly. 5 minutes ought to be achievable. Remembering there is large passenger churn at Piccadilly anyway, you would still be talking about 3 minutes for a through station.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Yes.

Liverpool needs the high-speed line. We just have to build the thing.

Then you have all the capacity of the CLC and Chat Moss to serve the communities on the routes. That will be transformational.

Liverpool has some of the straightest lines in the country!

You don't need a high speed line, you need to stop running stopping services on it!

 

[lowe1409]

I think it would have to be a crew swap at Piccadilly. 5 minutes ought to be achievable. Remembering there is large passenger churn at Piccadilly anyway, you would still be talking about 3 minutes for a through station.

Reversals still require longer to turn back. Extended dwells in a through station can also equal recovery time in timetable if loadings are slightly lighter than expected on a given train or even using stock better suited for large turnover of passengers given the frequency of stops on npr would make it closer to a high speed metro than a true high speed line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2026 ==

Liverpool has some of the straightest lines in the country!

You don't need a high speed line, you need to stop running stopping services on it!

This brings us towards an expectation of driving to a big station to take the train if locals can't access a local station. Commuters are railway bread and butter railway and are generally the most stable income source. Arguably these should be prioritied over longer distance leisure and business travel. To me, NPR is about moving longer distance trains off of lines with a lot of local travel opportunities I.E Chat moss and CLC

 

[Topological]

Liverpool has some of the straightest lines in the country!

You don't need a high speed line, you need to stop running stopping services on it!

Which is why we need a high-speed line. Then we can densify the housing stock around the existing suburban infrastructure.

You could build new suburban lines instead, but it seems better to constrcut the suburban infrastructure around what is there and then plough the high-speed line through fields.

 

[lowe1409]

I was referring to building a new commuter railway along the alignment of the M56 spur, through Wythenshaw, Didsbury and Moss Side, rather than connecting through to the Styal Line.

Problem is it's not particularly dense around the section that is motorway. Then you hit princess parkway which lacks the space around to build a commuter rail line despite how valuable it may be. Unfortunatly I feel any new line in this area would need to be largely underground unless there's any plans for a large scale demolition of surrounding houses to facilitate this as in many places, development comes right up to the road with people's driveways facing onto it. Otherwise I feel like it'd been a no brainer for HS2 planners to route the line this way only tunneling at the very end once you reach the city centre

 

[squingo44]

Problem is it's not particularly dense around the section that is motorway. Then you hit princess parkway which lacks the space around to build a commuter rail line despite how valuable it may be. Unfortunatly I feel any new line in this area would need to be largely underground unless there's any plans for a large scale demolition of surrounding houses to facilitate this as in many places, development comes right up to the road with people's driveways facing onto it. Otherwise I feel like it'd been a no brainer for HS2 planners to route the line this way only tunneling at the very end once you reach the city centre

I think that HS2 planners felt that, without any stations along the way, a single tunnel represented a simpler approach than a mix of surface and tunnelled alignments north from the Airport.

A stopping line, however, would be much cheaper if the stations being built were surface or low-depth subsurface stations. I think that that a line following the alignment of the M56 spur could be surface-level until it crosses the Mersey, cut-and-cover underneath Princess Road to Moss Side, and bored the remainder of the way to Manchester Piccadilly - with only one deep-level station, at University.

 

[lowe1409]

I think that HS2 planners felt that, without any stations along the way, a single tunnel represented a simpler approach than a mix of surface and tunnelled alignments north from the Airport.

A stopping line, however, would be much cheaper if the stations being built were surface or low-depth subsurface stations. I think that that a line following the alignment of the M56 spur could be surface-level until it crosses the Mersey, cut-and-cover underneath Princess Road to Moss Side, and bored the remainder of the way to Manchester Piccadilly - with only one deep-level station, at University.

If there was some way to narrow the parkway, or even build a sub surface tunnel along it. It may have been more complicated and slower, but could it be cheaper and hence keeping the budget down. It's far from my preferred solution but could potentially keep some costs down.

Slightly off topic but I wonder if a cut and cover princess parkway tunnel could be useful for that side of Manchester as a metro/commuter line. It's fairly straight and doesn't have much in the way of rail or metro link lines surrounding it.