Caledonian Sleeper

[BRX]

The cost of sorting out alternative transport for day seat passengers when the sleeper is disrupted or cancelled may also play a part.

 

[zwk500]

I'm fairly certain the Sleeper as a whole loses money anyway!

At last count I believe it was subsidised by £1 for every £1 of revenue.

 

[VT 390]

The cost of sorting out alternative transport for day seat passengers when the sleeper is disrupted or cancelled may also play a part.

I doubt it would an any significant cost as if it is a late notice cancellation then alternative transport would likely run anyway for all other passengers (including those in seats to south of Edinburgh) so they could just alight from the alternative transport which would run anyway.

 

[BRX]

I doubt it would an any significant cost as if it is a late notice cancellation then alternative transport would likely run anyway for all other passengers (including those in seats to south of Edinburgh) so they could just alight from the alternative transport which would run anyway.

I'm thinking of the stops along the West Highland Line that aren't served by the road route from Fort William to Glasgow, so have to be sorted out separately from whatever is provided for the main bulk of passengers. They are some of the ones most popular with hillwalkers, for whom the earliest & latest services of the day can be useful/attractive.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I doubt it would an any significant cost as if it is a late notice cancellation then alternative transport would likely run anyway for all other passengers (including those in seats to south of Edinburgh) so they could just alight from the alternative transport which would run anyway.

That might depend where they were going, to give an extreme example a seat booked Fort William to Rannoch would, if nobody was booked to join at Rannoch presumably require a Taxi. Fort William to Rannoch is 93 miles by road, even the nearest non West Highland stations are Blair Atholl 34 miles or Pitlochry is 41 miles And for anyone following the railway map the next station down the line at Bridge of Orchy (which replacement transport might serve) is a 73 mile road journey.

 

[VT 390]

That might depend where they were going, to give an extreme example a seat booked Fort William to Rannoch would, if nobody was booked to join at Rannoch presumably require a Taxi. Fort William to Rannoch is 93 miles by road, even the nearest non West Highland stations are Blair Atholl 34 miles or Pitlochry is 41 miles And for anyone following the railway map the next station down the line at Bridge of Orchy (which replacement transport might serve) is a 73 mile road journey.

I had forgotten the roads between the West Highland line stations were very indirect compared to the railway route, so can see how the cost could add up providing lots of local journeys as would likely be the case during the summer months.

 

[The exile]

They perhaps really, really don't want people to book short distances in case they have long distance customers wanting the seat?
Weird and frustrating, though

I’m sure I’ve read elsewhere that they only release the seats for domestic Scottish journeys 7 days before the train runs - which, although a bit of a nuisance, is understandable as long distance passengers should have priority.

 

[185143]

The only time I've had replacement transport from CS when the brown stuff hit the fan on the night, it was by way of taxis. Around 25 of us heading to Fort William, the 2 or 3 for intermediates were taxied separately direct, with the exception of a couple for Dalmuir who were put on ScotRail.

So it's certainly not a given that rail replacement would be going to intermediates anyway. Indeed, don't they normally when it's planned bus people to Kingussie?

 

[VT 390]

So it's certainly not a given that rail replacement would be going to intermediates anyway. Indeed, don't they normally when it's planned bus people to Kingussie?

Its a bit different when its a bus replacement to Kingussie as this is usually when it is planned disruption so you would (should) not be able to book the sleeper from certain intermediate stations that are planned not to be served on those days.

 

[Steve Harris]

According to RTT neither stock move for tonight's northbound services have left Wembley depot yet. (And the Highlander departure time keeps getting amended on the national rail website Kings Cross departure board page).

In fact RTT now shows the stock move for the northbound Lowlander as cancelled..https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:A23510/2026-04-08/detailed#allox_id=0

Plus I saw a 1Z99 move on signalmaps to the depot earlier (which may or may not be related).

 

[greatkingrat]

ECS now on the move 370(!) minutes late. Don't think the Highlander will leave KX much before 0200.

 

[InvHst]

Fully cancelled apparently

 

[SteveElbows]

From a passenger point of view its pretty rubbish that cancellations in one direction cause them to then cancel the service in the opposite direction too.

 

[MylesHSG]

Frustrating for passengers but you can understand operationally, 4 trains in London you'd have to find drivers and paths at short notice to run ECS back up to Scotland. Also running on the East Coast so trains were short formed so sets would be apart from their missing coaches for the resumption of West Coast service tonight.

 

[BenBracken]

I’m curious as to why engineering works at Euston and starting at KX means the CS has to use ECML and wipe out the newly introduced Birmingham stop? I’ll admit my ignorance on if and how the ECML and WCML link to each other but surely there’s some form of connecting line it can take to transfer onto the WCML before Birmingham?!

 

[MylesHSG]

I’m curious as to why engineering works at Euston and starting at KX means the CS has to use ECML and wipe out the newly introduced Birmingham stop? I’ll admit my ignorance on if and how the ECML and WCML link to each other but surely there’s some form of connecting line it can take to transfer onto the WCML before Birmingham?!

Theres not an electrified route

 

[jfowkes]

I’m curious as to why engineering works at Euston and starting at KX means the CS has to use ECML and wipe out the newly introduced Birmingham stop? I’ll admit my ignorance on if and how the ECML and WCML link to each other but surely there’s some form of connecting line it can take to transfer onto the WCML before Birmingham?!

Theres not an electrified route

Is there any route? I don't think there's a way of the CS getting from Kings Cross to Birmingham International without reversing either before or at BHI.

 

[Bill57p9]

I’m curious as to why engineering works at Euston and starting at KX means the CS has to use ECML and wipe out the newly introduced Birmingham stop? I’ll admit my ignorance on if and how the ECML and WCML link to each other but surely there’s some form of connecting line it can take to transfer onto the WCML before Birmingham?!

Anything is possible but operationally very difficult. The only way I can think of that would make Birmingham International involves a reverse: retracing the route the ECS takes between Wembley and Kings Cross.
CS have paths on the ECML route that completely bypass the WCML, not just Euston, and these can be used to avoid any block.

 

[MylesHSG]

Is there any route? I don't think there's a way of the CS getting from Kings Cross to Birmingham International without reversing either before or at BHI.

Ah yes, it stops at Brum International not New Street!

 

[BenBracken]

Theres not an electrified route

OK thanks that makes sense.

 

[jfowkes]

OK that makes sense? They managed to run GWR trains into Euston when there were engineering works at Paddington, could they not do the reverse? Or would that involve reversing as well!

Best thing is to look at https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ and trace the lines out of Kings Cross. You'll quickly see how limited the options are, and that's before considering any operational limits like needing electrification.
There are no chords off the ECML that face the right direction until Peterborough and that 1) is unelectrified 2) still doesn't get you to Birmingham International.

 

[Bill57p9]

The more straightforward option would be to investigate adding a stop at Peterborough and offering through tickets including connection (with XC at least as far as New Street)

 

[MylesHSG]

OK thanks that makes sense.

That route is also not electricfied, the GWR IETs are bi-mode. Also would depend on the blockade limits, it wasn't just Euston closed, it was a significant section of the southern WCML.

 

[Bill57p9]

Thinking about it, another factor is that the sleepers have to run short formed (12 rather than 16 coaches) due to the length of Kings Cross platform 0. Therefore capacity is reduced rather than looking to be filled.

This is also why CS run into Euston whenever possible, even if routing via ECML, with a reverse in Wembley Yard

 

[jfowkes]

I suggest using St. Pancras International as the backup London terminus. The international platforms are long enough and give electrified access to both the WCML and ECML. I foresee no problems with this plan.

 

[JonathanH]

I suggest using St. Pancras International as the backup London terminus. The international platforms are long enough and give electrified access to both the WCML and ECML. I foresee no problems with this plan.

Tounge in cheek I recognise, but St Pancras International platforms don't give signalled access to both routes.

 

[jfowkes]

They dont give signalled access though.

Problem 1 of about 7000 I think!

 

[BenBracken]

I’m sure I’ve seen somewhere a discussion about using class 99s for CS services. This would give more flexibility in and out of London terminals?

 

[JonathanH]

I’m sure I’ve seen somewhere a discussion about using class 99s for CS services. This would give more flexibility in and out of London terminals?

You still need a platform that can take two engines and a 16 coach train, of which there aren't very many.

 

[kingqueen]

Does anybody know why all caledonian sleeper services were cancelled last night? And what they did for passengers instead?