Sitting in Avanti Standard Premium by mistake

[gray1404]

I had a WhatsApp message from a friend who's on an Avanti service. He's sat in standard premium by mistake not realised it was even a thing. When his ticket was checked he apologised and offered to go and sit in standard. The Train Manager still insisted that he paid an upgrade.

He texted me saying that he "hadn't refused to pay" the upgrade but the Train Manager was still present "standing over him" so I told him to simply stand up calmly, walk away from the situation and go and sit and standard regardless.

As he was walking away the TM said that the BTP will be meeting the train. I've told him not to worry about it. Stick a different hoodie on out of his bag, exit the train from a different carriage and blend into a crowd. If he's really worried get off at a stop early and get the next train.

He didn't understand from the text exchange what I meant when i said he has remained in standard class despite sitting in premium and it's not like he's sat in first class by mistake. The ticket is an off peak return purchased from a station that issued on a ticket without a barcode.

Of course in this situation I wanted to provide reassurances and the practical solution to regulate the situation. However am I correct in saying that he has still strictly speaking remained in standard class and it's not a serious as sitting in first class with a standard class ticket?

If I remember rightly Avanti services are turning back short anyway aren't they? I've just messaged my friends again and he said he's got to change trains so overshured him there will not be any issues most likely.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Sitting in Standard Premium with a standard ticket is pretty much the same as sitting in First Class with a standard class ticket.

 

[furlong]

It depends whether Standard Premium is a different "class" of accommodation or not, whether there are notices and what those notices say on them.
E.g. Are there clear notices stating that the area is reserved for holders of "Standard Premium Class" tickets?

Did the TM point to one of the notices?
Why did the passenger not see a notice or disregard what it said?

 

[WesternLancer]

I had a WhatsApp message from a friend who's on a service to London Euston. He's sat in standard premium by mistake not realizing it was even a thing. When his ticket was checked he apologised and offered to go and sit in standard. The Train Manager still insisted that he paid an upgrade.

He texted me saying that he "hadn't refused to pay" the upgrade but the Train Manager was still present "standing over him" so I told him to simply stand up calmly, walk away from the situation and go and sit and standard regardless.

As he was walking away the TM said that the BTP will be meeting the train at Euston. I've told him not to worry about it. Stick a different hoodie on out of his bag, exit the train from a different carriage and blend into a crowd. If he's really worried get off at Milton Keynes Central and get the next Euston train.

He didn't understand from the text exchange what I meant when i said he has remained in standard class despite sitting in premium and it's not like he's sat in first class by mistake. The ticket is an off peak return purchased from a Merseyrail station so no barcode scanned.

Of course in this situation I wanted to provide reassurances and the practical solution to regulate the situation. However am I correct in saying that he has still strictly speaking remained in standard class and it's not a serious as sitting in first class with a standard class ticket?

I tend to think the simplest way to have regularised the situation would have been to have paid the upgrade (how much would that have been?) but then I might have more ready cash at my disposal then your friend.

Are you saying that after you gave your advice your friend mis understood it and stayed sitting in Standard Premium having refused to pay? If so that is not good IMHO...

Was his ticket scanned at any point on journey? If so they have his contact details - and as seen on another thread Avanti seem to use TIL as an enforcement contractor who I suspect could play hardball.

Not sure what the 'rules' say about Standard Premium because it's not First Class - so the ability to extract a First Class fare under threat of prosecution might not be there - but suspect there is some other sanction they can use - or otherwise no one would pay the Standard premium price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2026 ==

Sitting in Standard Premium with a standard ticket is pretty much the same as sitting in First Class with a standard class ticket.

I know what you mean - but does it say this in NrCoT or T&Cs?

Maybe they should rename it 'Bargain First' as opposed to 'Standard Premium'

 

[gray1404]

Just to confirm, after he'd message me it's occurred to me that Avanti services are turning back short anyway. So I messaged my friend again who confirmed that yes he has got to change. That makes me less worried about the train being meet by BTP.

His paper ticket does not have a barcode on it to scan. He messaged me pretty much whilst he was being asked for the money. I was able to respond instantly and he followed my advice which was to get up, walk away and go and sit in standard. Don't ask for permission to that, just do it.

 

[WesternLancer]

It depends whether Standard Premium is a different "class" of accommodation or not, whether there are notices and what those notices say on them.
E.g. Are there clear notices stating that the area is reserved for holders of "Standard Premium Class" tickets?

Did the TM point to one of the notices?
Why did the passenger not see a notice or disregard what it said?

I've seen people point out the signage ambiguities (possibly on this forum) with internal doors to the carriages saying 'First Class' on them on permanent signage, but seats having 'Standard Premium' on them on removable anti macassars

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2026 ==

Just to confirm, after he'd message me it's occurred to me that Avanti services are turning back short anyway. So I messaged my friend again who confirmed that yes he has got to change. That makes me less worried about the train being meet by BTP.

His ticket deals not have a barcode on it to scan. He messaged me pretty much whilst he was being asked for the money. I was able to respond instantly and he followed my advice which was to walk away and go and sit in standard.

So he got up and moved to a genuine Standard Class carriage during the conversation with the ticket inspector?
and no ability to scan any part of ticket that would link back to his personal details?
and he's going to have to get off the train at some point before Euston and get on some other train? Possibly staffed by a different crew etc

If yes to all of these I doubt anything much will come of this.

Standard Premium On Board supplement looks like £37.50 from Lime Street to Euston (but if he moved at next station after being spoke to it might have been less depending on when this happened in course of journey I suppose) - if they did carry out some sort of enforcement it would have been far batter and cheaper to resolve than paying £37.50 however. Even if they wrote asking for an 'Unpaid Fare' it would presumably be £37.50 plus maybe an admin fee - so less than paying on board.

 

[gray1404]

Also I know this friend very well and although I know he does stay calm he can also be extremely stubborn. So I knew there was absolutely no way he would be paying for an upgrade or providing any details so my suggestion was probably the best I could think of on the spot to regulate the situation.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also I know this friend very well and although I know he does stay calm he can also be extremely stubborn. So I knew there was absolutely no way he would be paying for an upgrade or providing any details so my suggestion was probably the best I could think of on the spot to regulate the situation.

It was probably good advice given what you say about his character

Why did he think he was entitled to sit there however? it's clearly a more spacious seat and a better environment....

 

[furlong]

Trainline considers it is a separate class:

Avanti West Coast Standard Premium | Standard Premium Tickets | Trainline

Find out more about Avanti's Standard Premium Class. Read our guide to what's on offer and book your Avanti West Coast Standard Premium tickets with us.

www.thetrainline.com

Standard Premium Class is an additional class offered by Avanti West Coast, that sits between Standard and First Class. It's available on the majority of their services and Avanti West Coast are the only train company in the UK to offer this additional class of travel.

However, there is also this:

Standard Premium | Avanti West Coast

Upgrade to Standard Premium with Avanti West Coast. Travel in comfort with extra space and perks on your UK train journey for a premium experience.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Upgrade onboard
If you’ve booked a Standard Class ticket but fancy a bit of luxury at the last minute, you can move up to Standard Premium there and then. Just head to the Standard Premium coach when you get on and the Train Manager will upgrade your ticket.

I take from this that there is permission to remain in the carriage without holding the right class of ticket UNTIL such time as the TM upgrades it. Refusal would end that permission but I doubt that that can be applied retrospectively. Consequently, that might mean there is no offence if, at the point of being required to pay, the passenger leaves the area.

 

[yorkie]

I had a WhatsApp message from a friend who's on an Avanti service. He's sat in standard premium by mistake not realised it was even a thing. When his ticket was checked he apologised and offered to go and sit in standard. The Train Manager still insisted that he paid an upgrade.

He texted me saying that he "hadn't refused to pay" the upgrade but the Train Manager was still present "standing over him" so I told him to simply stand up calmly, walk away from the situation and go and sit and standard regardless.

As he was walking away the TM said that the BTP will be meeting the train. I've told him not to worry about it. Stick a different hoodie on out of his bag, exit the train from a different carriage and blend into a crowd. If he's really worried get off at a stop early and get the next train.

He didn't understand from the text exchange what I meant when i said he has remained in standard class despite sitting in premium and it's not like he's sat in first class by mistake. The ticket is an off peak return purchased from a station that issued on a ticket without a barcode.

Of course in this situation I wanted to provide reassurances and the practical solution to regulate the situation. However am I correct in saying that he has still strictly speaking remained in standard class and it's not a serious as sitting in first class with a standard class ticket?

If I remember rightly Avanti services are turning back short anyway aren't they? I've just messaged my friends again and he said he's got to change trains so overshured him there will not be any issues most likely.

Where did he board the train?

Where did the interaction take place, what was the previous stop and following stop before/after the interaction?

 

[Cantab26]

I take from this that there is permission to remain in the carriage without holding the right class of ticket UNTIL such time as the TM upgrades it. Refusal would end that permission but I doubt that that can be applied retrospectively.

Nice try. The permission is clearly conditional upon actually paying to upgrade when requested so to do.

Consequently, that might mean there is no offence if, at the point of being required to pay, the passenger leaves the area.

As far as I can see, in such circumstances potential offences would include breaches of both Byelaw 13 and Byelaw 19 (as the lack of intention to pay to upgrade would take the passenger outwith the scope of any authorisation and specified category of persons), Byelaw 23 if details were requested and refused, section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and section 5(3)(a) of that Act.

 

[gray1404]

From what I could gather I don't think he knew about standard premium and just assumed it was first and standard.

From what I can gathered from his texts straight after he'd moved to Standard, he boarded at Crewe going to Milton Keynes Central. Ticket checked after departing Stafford. I've not been able to ascertain the next stop on the service from him directly but I assuming it would be Rugby.

 

[D1511]

Also, if he's been sat in a standard premium seat from lime Street to MKC where the ticket check took place, then he should have to pay. Where the ticket was checked is also relevant

Edit, OP has added this info above

 

[WesternLancer]

he boarded at Crewe going to Milton Keynes Central.

still seems to be £37.50 Std Prem upgrade

Ticket checked after departing Stafford. I've not been able to ascertain the next stop on the service from him directly but I assuming it would be Rugby.

Crewe to Stafford is £18 upgrade price

 

[gray1404]

He's messaged me again to say nothing came of it so that's good. I've explained to him that Avanti offer "3 types" of accommodation so I'm sure moving forward he'll make sure he's in regular standard class.

I'm glad he reached out to me at the time and it resulted in nothing further happening. I rather suspect the train manager would have walked away in the end and given where the train was terminating, the service would not have been met. However, by regulating the situation at the time it got him away from the TM and stopped anything escalating either side.

 

[jumble]

I had a WhatsApp message from a friend who's on an Avanti service. He's sat in standard premium by mistake not realised it was even a thing. When his ticket was checked he apologised and offered to go and sit in standard. The Train Manager still insisted that he paid an upgrade.

He texted me saying that he "hadn't refused to pay" the upgrade but the Train Manager was still present "standing over him" so I told him to simply stand up calmly, walk away from the situation and go and sit and standard regardless.

As he was walking away the TM said that the BTP will be meeting the train. I've told him not to worry about it. Stick a different hoodie on out of his bag, exit the train from a different carriage and blend into a crowd. If he's really worried get off at a stop early and get the next train.

He didn't understand from the text exchange what I meant when i said he has remained in standard class despite sitting in premium and it's not like he's sat in first class by mistake. The ticket is an off peak return purchased from a station that issued on a ticket without a barcode.

Of course in this situation I wanted to provide reassurances and the practical solution to regulate the situation. However am I correct in saying that he has still strictly speaking remained in standard class and it's not a serious as sitting in first class with a standard class ticket?

If I remember rightly Avanti services are turning back short anyway aren't they? I've just messaged my friends again and he said he's got to change trains so overshured him there will not be any issues most likely.

A little bird suggested to me last week that it is rare that BTP will bother to attend to get involved in ticketing matters
(There are plenty of previous posts here on the forum of what I understand to be railway staff saying the same thing)

 

[Haywain]

A little bird suggested to me last week that it is rare that BTP will bother to attend to get involved in ticketing matters
(There are plenty of previous posts here on the forum of what I understand to be railway staff saying the same thing)

Rare doesn’t mean never, so is it worth pushing your luck just to find out?

 

[jumble]

Rare doesn’t mean never, so is it worth pushing your luck just to find out?

Oh yes there might just be a bored officer at the destination
However it does assist in weighing up the risk

 

[gray1404]

That said if somebody provided their name and address to the rail staff as soon as the Police showed up, I would expect that to be the end of police involvement.

 

[6Gman]

Oh yes there might just be a bored officer at the destination
However it does assist in weighing up the risk

I've seen multiple BTP (at least 3) meet a train to handle a ticketing matter.

 

[ChilliSauce]

It depends whether Standard Premium is a different "class" of accommodation or not, whether there are notices and what those notices say on them.
E.g. Are there clear notices stating that the area is reserved for holders of "Standard Premium Class" tickets?

Did the TM point to one of the notices?
Why did the passenger not see a notice or disregard what it said?

Doubt you could mistake you were not sitting in Standard Class . As the vestible doors into the carriage with either 1st class or Standard Premium say 1st Class and the seat head rests state either Standard Premium or First Class .. depending on which coach and day of week.

 

[Bayum]

Maybe don’t give advice in future…

 

[gray1404]

Maybe don’t give advice in future…

I was happy to help. My friend instigated the WhatsApp chat with me. I am glad I suggested he moved seats and walked away from the Train Manager. It stopped the situation getting any worse.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was happy to help. My friend instigated the WhatsApp chat with me. I am glad I suggested he moved seats and walked away from the Train Manager. It stopped the situation getting any worse.

personally it seems to me that you had 2 options

1) tell your friend to just pay up then and there
or
2) tell them to move as you did

You explained that you knew your friends character and that 1 wasn't advice they would follow - so personally I think giving the advice in 2 was the best option open to you.

 

[AndrewE]

I am surprised that somebody didn't spot that they were in what is a first-class carriage, the 2-and-1 seating and table provision plus the general spaciousness are a world away from what it is like in standard.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am surprised that somebody didn't spot that they were in what is a first-class carriage, the 2-and-1 seating and table provision plus the general spaciousness are a world away from what it is like in standard.

Obviously there are plenty of people who try it on - but there are also plenty pf people who just get on and sit down - this was remarked upon by me and also others on recent new EMR 810 trains - in that case the seat fabric colours are not much different between 1st and standard so it doesn't help matters. They clearly were not considering the size of the seats or the table provision, and I watched it all happen.

Personally I agree with you - but then I spend a lot of time on trains noting things about them - as will many forum members - but lots of people don't do that. And many people will travel most if not all of the time on trains that only have one class of seating - some of them I suspect just think 1st class has been abolished. And don't lets get started on the 1st class seating areas on Thameslink that is permanently available for standard class ticket holders....

 

[Coleridge]

It's pretty poor advice on the part of the OP, and very poor behaviour on the part of the friend. I find it very difficult to understand why someone would just walk away in a situation like that rather than pay what is due (and be more careful next time).

 

[tatitiliti]

It's pretty poor advice on the part of the OP, and very poor behaviour on the part of the friend. I find it very difficult to understand why someone would just walk away in a situation like that rather than pay what is due (and be more careful next time).

1. Because technically it *may* not contravene NRCoT as it is not ‘first class’ or an explicitly stipulated ‘class’ of travel

2. Because, in light of this, it is totally out of order that the guard wouldn’t acknowledge an honest mistake and just ensure the customer vacates standard premium for the rest of the journey *or* pays for the upgrade