Avanti shop closures when approaching Preston

[AlterEgo]

Why does the till need balancing?

As others have mentioned it's not a hugely important issue, but it does seem like you should be able to do it with maybe 5 minutes of downtime rather than 20+ (my experience is that it's much longer, especially on the Birmingham to Scotland routes with two changes)

You’ve never balanced a till before have you? It takes more than five minutes to do it AND find your errors when there’s £11.78 missing and you don’t have a single transaction which accounts for it.

 

[KNN]

You’ve never balanced a till before have you? It takes more than five minutes to do it AND find your errors when there’s £11.78 missing and you don’t have a single transaction which accounts for it.

I have, it's a faff, that's one of the reasons I wouldn't do it three times in five hours. A normal cafe would do it at the end of the day.

 

[NCT]

Tesco doesn't have to restock and change shifts within a 3-minute dwell.

 

[NeakPed]

I have, it's a faff, that's one of the reasons I wouldn't do it three times in five hours. A normal cafe would do it at the end of the day.

A normal cafe is probably a one man band who charges differing prices depending on ’mates rates’ or bulk buying etc. Not quite the same as a train.

 

[RiverDon]

I have, it's a faff, that's one of the reasons I wouldn't do it three times in five hours. A normal cafe would do it at the end of the day.

Ok but then how would you work out who was responsible for a loss if you'd changed over between three separate people in that five hours? Again, the reason for the money /stock reconciliation from the point of view of the management is to find out if someone's on the rob and/or dissuade them from even considering it in the first place.

There is a huge potential for fiddles and robbing in a train shop or trolley and balancing the till is an attempt to curb this.

 

[dk1]

Am I the only one that can’t believe we are even discussing this let alone that it’s so elongated?

 

[AlterEgo]

I have, it's a faff, that's one of the reasons I wouldn't do it three times in five hours. A normal cafe would do it at the end of the day.

No serious business doesn’t cash up between employee shifts. Huge cash control risk. Avanti isn’t some corner caff.

You also wouldn’t give yourself only five minutes to do it if you were on a train and had to get off at Preston to catch another one you were contracted to work.

 

[Acathater]

FWIW the same happened on an XC Voyager a few weeks back as it approached Birmingham.
Only difference was they tried to make the job easier by flogging the sarnies off half price before they closed

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Ridiculous is griping on a forum because a shop shut for a few minutes on a train. It's a total non-issue.

100% this.

 

[LowLevel]

Am I the only one that can’t believe we are even discussing this let alone that it’s so elongated?

No, it's funny. As someone else has said it's a long standing tradition, I certainly remember it under Intercity! Almost as much a tradition as the host calling it a fully licensed bar when being on a train it is nothing of the sort

 

[FrodshamJnct]

No, it's funny. As someone else has said it's a long standing tradition, I certainly remember it under Intercity! Almost as much a tradition as the host calling it a fully licensed bar when being on a train it is nothing of the sort

Tis a tad surprising this thread has gone on this long. Not sure why anyone would deem this unreasonable.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Yes, LNER do it at Newcastle on their Scottish services but it is always announced clearly as such ("the buffet will be closing in 10 minutes and will reopen after Newcastle"), I'm pretty sure people can live with not getting a coffee for 20 minutes.

The impact is rather more noticeable in First Class. A recent journey from Darlington to Berwick - around 80 minutes - seemed plenty long enough to expect the complimentary meal, one of the main attractions of paying the higher fare and a factor in planning the day with no opportunity for a meal later. It was clear though on boarding that the staff were winding down ready to leave at Newcastle, and by the time their replacements were up and running it was too late for anything more than a quick tea and a biscuit. You can miss out on even a First Class complimentary drink if you unknowingly get the timing wrong on 30+ minute journeys through the changover point on several TOCs.

 

[AlterEgo]

Tis a tad surprising this thread has gone on this long. Not sure why anyone would deem this unreasonable.

One of the mods will shortly close it for 20 minutes.

 

[Chrism20]

No serious business doesn’t cash up between employee shifts. Huge cash control risk. Avanti isn’t some corner caff.

You also wouldn’t give yourself only five minutes to do it if you were on a train and had to get off at Preston to catch another one you were contracted to work.

As someone who was a Senior Deputy Manager in a supermarket that had sales of £4m+ a week I can assure you that there are serious businesses out there that do not cash up a till between every employees shift. Surprisingly we also did not have a lot of high cash variances.

The railway just do things differently which is fair enough and it works for them

 

[RT4038]

The impact is rather more noticeable in First Class. A recent journey from Darlington to Berwick - around 80 minutes - seemed plenty long enough to expect the complimentary meal, one of the main attractions of paying the higher fare and a factor in planning the day with no opportunity for a meal later. It was clear though on boarding that the staff were winding down ready to leave at Newcastle, and by the time their replacements were up and running it was too late for anything more than a quick tea and a biscuit. You can miss out on even a First Class complimentary drink if you unknowingly get the timing wrong on 30+ minute journeys through the changover point on several TOCs.

However, passengers travelling from Darlington to Berwick must be an outlier in the grand scheme of things?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2026 ==

As someone who was a Senior Deputy Manager in a supermarket that had sales of £4m+ a week I can assure you that there are serious businesses out there that do not cash up a till between every employees shift. Surprisingly we also did not have a lot of high cash variances.

The railway just do things differently which is fair enough and it works for them

I think we have to recognise that the two activities may seem outwardly similar but the detail is somewhat different. The Railways have had a huge problem of employee theft of takings and stock in the past - not much supervision and overseeing possible in their circumstances compared to a static shop.

 

[lesthebus]

Has to be done to make sure there are no discrepancies or shortages in stock or cash. I'm not suggesting any onboard staff are dishonest. Any business would hold staff accountable.
Also routines as mentioned such as stock replenishment which often happens at Preston or Wolverhampton.

 

[KNN]

The Railways have had a huge problem of employee theft of takings and stock in the past - not much supervision and overseeing possible in their circumstances compared to a static shop.

I'd be curious to see the figures relative to a supermarket or bar, till tapping on a train seems really easy to prove when you are directly rostered.

 

[Harpo]

One of the mods will shortly close it for 20 minutes.

Excellent. Time to re-stock the gripes with some fresh ones.

 

[mpthomson]

I have, it's a faff, that's one of the reasons I wouldn't do it three times in five hours. A normal cafe would do it at the end of the day.

A catering trolly/ buffet isn't a normal cafe...

 

[cats_five]

I'd be curious to see the figures relative to a supermarket or bar, till tapping on a train seems really easy to prove when you are directly rostered.

But only if the till is balanced at the end of each shift

 

[Ellwill]

LNER tend to close the shop and pause first class catering between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh on trains going south from Aberdeen from my personal experience.

 

[Merle Haggard]

As someone who was a Senior Deputy Manager in a supermarket that had sales of £4m+ a week I can assure you that there are serious businesses out there that do not cash up a till between every employees shift. Surprisingly we also did not have a lot of high cash variances.

The railway just do things differently which is fair enough and it works for them

I infer that you did have some. What action did you take then? I can't see how you could identify the individual responsible, and the honest cashiers in the chain would feel that they were under un-necessary suspicion.

//

It appears - from a prosecution - that one supermarket has a system for quick change-over of cashiers at a till The money tray slides away from the leaving cashier and is locked. A similar tray above or below is unlocked and pulled out for the nest cashier. The trays' contents are checked later, when the till is closed. .

 

[voyagerdude220]

LNER tend to close the shop and pause first class catering between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh on trains going south from Aberdeen from my personal experience.

I can understand their Shop needing time to cash up and check stock/balance the till, but I don't understand why First Class can't offer food and drink until say Haymarket (make sure everyone has been served/all Staff are back in the Kitchen upon arrival at Haymarket) as they don't need to account for cash in First Class.

Unless it's stock related.

 

[Chrism20]

I infer that you did have some. What action did you take then? I can't see how you could identify the individual responsible, and the honest cashiers in the chain would feel that they were under un-necessary suspicion.

//

It appears - from a prosecution - that one supermarket has a system for quick change-over of cashiers at a till The money tray slides away from the leaving cashier and is locked. A similar tray above or below is unlocked and pulled out for the nest cashier. The trays' contents are checked later, when the till is closed. .

Random checks and damn good CCTV amongst a few other security features. Without going into too much detail the CCTV you as a customer will see around checkouts is barely a tenth of the total amount there is. If you suspect someone of being up to no good it's easy to funnel them onto a specific till and check that one more often.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Random checks and damn good CCTV amongst a few other security features. Without going into too much detail the CCTV you as a customer will see around checkouts is barely a tenth of the total amount there is. If you suspect someone of being up to no good it's easy to funnel them onto a specific till and check that one more often.

Thanks, make sense.

 

[route101]

Some Avanti services have catering staff do Glasgow to London throughout without a swap.

 

[Coleridge]

I don't think anyone really disputes the need to have a period to balance the till and restock at crew change. The issue is that, like many things on the UK's network, the process is prolonged and inefficient, and seemingly designed for the convenience of the railway rather than the customer.

I travel this route at least once a month, and it seems (judging by the public address announcements, as I have never actually used the shop on an Avanti train) that the shop is often closed as much as 20 minutes before arriving in Preston and doesn't open again until 20 minutes after leaving Preston. A proper commercial, customer-focused organisation would do it in 5 minutes.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Been like this back to BR days, when the buffet commonly closed half an hour or more before final arrival, announced as "to cash up". I remember the timetable from Reading to Paddington used to show the buffet symbol over all the incoming long distance expresses, where in fact pretty much none of them were still open by that stage.

And the fact that it's announced over the PA system is an improvement - at one time you might have to walk the length of the train only to find the buffet was closed.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

It has always seemed odd that they have to shut the shop for staff changeover, Tescos doesn't need half an hour plus with no tills when the morning people leave and the afternoon shift arrive.

Tesco will take the cash drawer to a cash office and it will tallied there by 2 staff members and they have a whole team who manage stick availability and accuracy

 

[gravitystorm]

I like to think of the stock as the most counted chocolate bars in the country. All stock being counted, over and over, all day long...

I agree that the supermarket comparisons are flawed, but a more similar comparison would be a corner shop with one member of staff on duty. I've never seen any corner shops closing for 20 minutes every two hours, counting up all their chocolate bars, counting up the cash, opening, closing, opening, closing. It's possible to keep a small shop open for much longer than 2 hours at a time. It's also possible to keep on-board train shops open for longer than 2 hours at a time, since it happens every day all around Europe. So the question is what makes Avanti so different that they can't do the same.

I appreciate that the staff are changing mid-route at Preston, but they also seem to change at London and Glasgow too (or at least they are happy to close the shop before arrival and wait until after departure to open). I've not seen anything similar travelling around Europe, with much longer than 2 hour journeys with the on-board shops open continuously. Perhaps Avanti can have per-staff cash boxes that could be swapped in seconds and counted off-train. Perhaps they can change the rostering so that there's a few minutes overlap between shifts (e.g. boarding northbound trains at Wigan). Or perhaps they can go to Germany or Poland and ask how they manage to keep the shop open for the whole journey, seemingly without any chaos ensuing.