Signal maps - Starbeck

[800Travel]

Hi, is anyone aware of a signal map that shows the trains running between York and Leeds via Starbeck please? Traksy doesn’t seem to cover, and neither do the other handful I’ve checked. Thanks

 

[yorkshirerail]

Hi, is anyone aware of a signal map that shows the trains running between York and Leeds via Starbeck please? Traksy doesn’t seem to cover, and neither do the other handful I’ve checked. Thanks

There is no signal data available between Harrogate and Skelton Junction as all there are manual signal boxes and semaphore signals on that section of line so no train movements can be shown on a signalling map

 

[Freightmaster]

Hi, is anyone aware of a signal map that shows the trains running between York and Leeds via Starbeck please? Traksy doesn’t seem to cover, and neither do the other handful I’ve checked. Thanks

Due to the nature/age of the signalling equipment used, the line between Harrogate and Poppleton
doesn't have Train Describer coverage, so there is no 'realtime' data available, unfortunately.

There are many lines like that in the north of England - Tyne Valley, the S+C, Cumbrian Coast,
Teesside east of South Bank, Scarborough to York/Hull, etc...



MARK

 

[ainsworth74]

Teesside east of South Bank

Yes and living east of South Bank ruddy annoying it is too! The OP has my sympathies if they're similarly afflicted by living in such a zone

 

[800Travel]

Ah thanks for letting me know - makes sense now. Was trying to see when trains would be passing and was just having to make do with RTT

 

[MboroFC]

Yes and living east of South Bank ruddy annoying it is too! The OP has my sympathies if they're similarly afflicted by living in such a zone

It is strange that our area doesn't even have basic signalling when all other stretches of the Transpennine Route are two steps ahead with electrification. There's priorities here, surely !

 

[Gloster]

It is strange that our area doesn't even have basic signalling when all other stretches of the Transpennine Route are two steps ahead with electrification. There's priorities here, surely !

You do have signalling. It is just they are still using the old but still perfectly effective and safe Absolute Block. The low number and lack of variety of services in the area (I presume you mean Harrogate-York) mean that there is no reason to spend a lot of money replacing a perfectly adequate system for the traffic until it wears out, which takes quite a while.

 

[MboroFC]

You do have signalling. It is just they are still using the old but still perfectly effective and safe Absolute Block. The low number and lack of variety of services in the area (I presume you mean Harrogate-York) mean that there is no reason to spend a lot of money replacing a perfectly adequate system for the traffic until it wears out, which takes quite a while.

Sorry for being a bit unclear. I'm on about the Northallerton to Saltburn stretch of the Transpennine Route.

In terms of Harrogate Line signalling, things are always being upgraded and replaced even though they aren't broken and are perfectly safe. I'd say it wasn't perfectly adequate at all. If it was adequate, you'd be able to see signal maps on the Harrogate line and there wouldn't be a person manually inputting the time when a train passes a certain point onto the system.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In terms of Harrogate Line signalling, things are always being upgraded and replaced even though they aren't broken and are perfectly safe. I'd say it wasn't perfectly adequate at all. If it was adequate, you'd be able to see signal maps on the Harrogate line and there wouldn't be a person manually inputting the time when a train passes a certain point onto the system.

Of course it's adequate. The purpose of signalling, by whatever means, is to ensure the safe operation of trains. Resignalling is an expensive business and such expenditure needs to be justified. That will normally be due to extensive changes being made to the track layouts, electrification or the equipoment itself being worn out to the point that reliability is being affected. The ability of more modern signalling to generate the sort of data that can be shared publically is merely a useful by-product, not a driver for its installation.

 

[Freightmaster]

It is strange that our area doesn't even have basic signalling... I'm on about the Northallerton to Saltburn stretch of the Transpennine Route.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think that Northallerton to Saltburn doesn't have "basic signalling"?

Northallerton to Saltburn is controlled by modern colour light signalling throughout,
with the stretch from Eaglescliffe to Whitehouse Junction just east of Middlesbrough
being fully resignalled as recently as November 2021, when control was passed from
local signalboxes (Bowesfield, Tees, Middlesborough and Whitehouse) to York ROC.

Beyond Whitehouse Junction, signalling is still controlled from the conventional boxes
at Grangetown and Redcar, but it's all colour light, TCB stuff - no absolute block other
than on the freight line to Boulby.

 

[M60lad]

Am I right in thinking that the reason Chinley-Bamford on Hope Valley Line is not shown on signalling diagrams is due to oldish signalling and signal boxes being still on the route? Are there any plans to move all the signalling on Hope Valley Line to a ROC?

 

[MboroFC]

Of course it's adequate. The purpose of signalling, by whatever means, is to ensure the safe operation of trains. Resignalling is an expensive business and such expenditure needs to be justified. That will normally be due to extensive changes being made to the track layouts, electrification or the equipoment itself being worn out to the point that reliability is being affected. The ability of more modern signalling to generate the sort of data that can be shared publically is merely a useful by-product, not a driver for its installation.

Signaler maps are used by signalers of course. It's not just a useful by product for the public

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2026 ==

Out of curiosity, what makes you think that Northallerton to Saltburn doesn't have "basic signalling"?

Northallerton to Saltburn is controlled by modern colour light signalling throughout,
with the stretch from Eaglescliffe to Whitehouse Junction just east of Middlesbrough
being fully resignalled as recently as November 2021, when control was passed from
local signalboxes (Bowesfield, Tees, Middlesborough and Whitehouse) to York ROC.

Beyond Whitehouse Junction, signalling is still controlled from the conventional boxes
at Grangetown and Redcar, but it's all colour light, TCB stuff - no absolute block other
than on the freight line to Boulby.

There's no signaling data past southbank towards Saltburn which is part of the Transpennine Route

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Signaler maps are used by signalers of course. It's not just a useful by product for the public

But equally a signaller operating Absolute Block Signalling can do so without any such maps. Perhaps you should do some research on ABS, then you may understand how it is a safe system whose main disadvantage is the relatively high staffing cost due to the method of work not being suitable for individual signal boxes covering more than quite limited areas. As such a significant benefit of replacing ABS with more modern signalling is improved productivity of signalling staff, it just so happens that "pretty" maps are likely to be part of the package. The usefulness of such maps to the general public is irrelevant when appraising the costs and benefits of signalling upgrades. Safety first, then productivity, anything else is just gravy.

 

[Freightmaster]

Am I right in thinking that the reason Chinley-Bamford on Hope Valley Line is not shown on signalling diagrams is due to oldish signalling and signal boxes being still on the route?

Yes - see my earlier reply #3:

Signal maps - Starbeck

Hi, is anyone aware of a signal map that shows the trains running between York and Leeds via Starbeck please? Traksy doesn’t seem to cover, and neither do the other handful I’ve checked. Thanks

www.railforums.co.uk

It isn't just Chinley to Bamford - New Mills/Hazel Grove Junction to New Mills Junction is 'dark' too,
as are all the lines in the Peak Forest/Tunstead/Buxton areas.

 

[ChilliSauce]

In terms of Harrogate Line signalling, things are always being upgraded and replaced even though they aren't broken and are perfectly safe.

The upgrade might be to fit something like "Approach Locking".

The accident at Ufton Nervet only happened because "Approach Locking" was not fitted when the barriers at the road crossing were renewed ... So allowing the signaller to replace the signal protecting the crossing and raise the barriers.

 

[MboroFC]

Good points both of you.

 

[Bald Rick]

The upgrade might be to fit something like "Approach Locking".

The accident at Ufton Nervet only happened because "Approach Locking" was not fitted when the barriers at the road crossing were renewed ... So allowing the signaller to replace the signal protecting the crossing and raise the barriers.

You are presumably thinking of Moreton on Lugg.

Ufton Nervet was an AHB, and not controlled by the signaller.

 

[Gloster]

You are presumably thinking of Moreton on Lugg.

Ufton Nervet was an AHB, and not controlled by the signaller.

There was a near-miss at Ufton Nervet in late 2011 while the crossing was being transfered back to normal working after being in local control. There was another incident in May 2012 when a scooter rider was killed, but I can’t find a RAIB report on this so the investigation may have not produced any rail ‘learning points’.

 

[Bald Rick]

There was a near-miss at Ufton Nervet in late 2011 while the crossing was being transfered back to normal working after being in local control. There was another incident in May 2012 when a scooter rider was killed, but I can’t find a RAIB report on this so the investigation may have not produced any rail ‘learning points’.

Indeed, but approach locking and signaller control was not an issue there

 

[bluenoxid]

Steering back to the OP’s point, I understand some work somewhere in the country was being looked at regarding GPS to support passenger information systems at stations but I don’t know if that has had any outputs that could be used to support train tracker mapping websites.

 

[ChilliSauce]

You are presumably thinking of Moreton on Lugg.

Ufton Nervet was an AHB, and not controlled by the signaller.

Hello, yes sorry Morton On Lugg was where the signaller put the signal back to Red in front of the approaching train and because of lack of Approach Locking was able to raise the Road Crossing Barriers .
Ufton Nervet was were some guy parked a car on an AHB crossing ... Got hit by an HST