Who should be responsible for overcrowding on trains during special events?

[Topological]

May I suggest.........

Firstly as far as I can see stadiums etc seem to have a blanket permit to put on what they like, unlike 'one offs' eg Glastonbury Festival

So I suggest that all major events should be licensed. While football violence is much diminished it would mean that clubs that have a poor reputation for supporters behaviour would have a strong incentive to address it.

Then there is the issue of 'intoxication' which has been discussed on other threads but should intoxicated/abusive people be allowed onto stations?

Finally if we have a National Public Transport system it needs to be able to handle major public events as part of its remit. Clearly the good old 47 & a rake of MK1's that most drivers sign and can go almost anywhere has a lot to be said for it. The Stock for lines approach that happens these days clearly has some serious limitations.

Are you sure stadiums can put on what they like?

What license are you suggesting? Surely the Premier League (for example) is already very clear that it is putting on 19 home games for each team? The cup competitions are a bit more flexible because of random draws and teams being knocked out, but again they are fully clear about the rules. What license would be needed that is not implicitly there?

Then you have the fact that to open to the public, stadiums need safety certificates for the number of attendees. These are the licenses at the local level.

As to the 47s and Mk1s, well yes you can replace that with a 68 (or similar) and MK5s (without the DVT), but is that really a good thing to have around? Neither are anything like as cheap as a 47 and Mk1 would have been after allowing for inflation. I doubt anyone is advocating having stock without full modern safety equipment, facilities etc.

 

[JamesT]

May I suggest.........

Firstly as far as I can see stadiums etc seem to have a blanket permit to put on what they like, unlike 'one offs' eg Glastonbury Festival

So I suggest that all major events should be licensed. While football violence is much diminished it would mean that clubs that have a poor reputation for supporters behaviour would have a strong incentive to address it.

Then there is the issue of 'intoxication' which has been discussed on other threads but should intoxicated/abusive people be allowed onto stations?

Finally if we have a National Public Transport system it needs to be able to handle major public events as part of its remit. Clearly the good old 47 & a rake of MK1's that most drivers sign and can go almost anywhere has a lot to be said for it. The Stock for lines approach that happens these days clearly has some serious limitations.

Major stadiums are licensed. The local authority can and does refuse permission for events. The RFU have been trying for years to be allowed to put on more non-rugby events at Twickenham.

The provision of public transport is part of the case that an organisation will make to get a safety certificate from the local authority. If the authority think it’s insufficient then they may refuse it or only allow a limited capacity.

Which does lead fairly naturally to if you think events are putting excessive strain on public transport, petition the relevant authority to refuse permission until the event organisers have arranged something better.

 

[Haywain]

So I suggest that all major events should be licensed.

They are - stadiums are required to have safety certificates and there are boards made up of local authorities, police and clubs who control what can and cannot take place.

 

[mmh]

So I suggest that all major events should be licensed

They are. Not sure why you'd think they weren't.

 

[JohnofWessex]

They are. Not sure why you'd think they weren't.

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

 

[JonathanH]

Clearly the good old 47 & a rake of MK1's that most drivers sign and can go almost anywhere has a lot to be said for it.

It really doesn't. As noted above, a 12-car EMU formation moves people a whole lot more efficiently. The best opportunity might be when the 12-car EMU formations have batteries and can serve destinations off the commuter network.

 

[Topological]

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

Why would it happen?

The stadiums are licensed to hold the events. The events are scheduled based upon the licence.

Sometimes they do prevent crowds from attending, that can be done on a game-by-game basis.

It is as daft to think that a game might be cancelled as a train being cancelled one day because of noise.

 

[yorksrob]

It really doesn't. As noted above, a 12-car EMU formation moves people a whole lot more efficiently. The best opportunity might be when the 12-car EMU formations have batteries and can serve destinations off the commuter network.

If the 12 car EMU formation can't get there, the rake of mk1's wins. (Probably has more toilet provision as well).

 

[kkong]

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

Did the recent news furore about the banning of visiting fans from the Aston Villa v Maccabi Tel-Aviv match pass you by?

It resulted in the resignation retirement of a Chief Constable.

 

[Haywain]

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

As you weren't aware of any form of licensing existing it's hardly surprising that you are not aware of powers having been used.

 

[Krokodil]

Really the answer lies in extending electrification as far and wide as possible and standardising units so that it's easy to borrow spare units from a London depot on a weekend to cover a strengthened service wherever there's an event.

 

[JohnofWessex]

Really the answer lies in extending electrification as far and wide as possible and standardising units so that it's easy to borrow spare units from a London depot on a weekend to cover a strengthened service wherever there's an event.

Exactly that

 

[HSTEd]

Well if we had a national standard multiple working specification, you could probably make a case for a handful of additional multiple units with Tube interiors. A small number of carriages would have an outsize ability to absorb extra passengers in crush situations.

Unfortuantely we do not have such a specification, so every fleet would have to carry its own "event spares" - which seems unlikely to be economically sensible.

 

[Starmill]

Trains are often heavily crowded with Christmas shoppers on Saturdays in late November, especially to and from places like Birmingham or Manchester. Trains are often heavily crowded on hot sunny days in early August too, especially ones going to places like Bournemouth, Rhyl or Scarborough. Those aren't really special events, anyone can show up if they wish and buy a ticket.

Unfortunately public transport is... well, open to the general public. Anyone can show up and buy a ticket, and if they behave well they must be allowed to travel. That is kind of the core point. The fact that one person is using the service more frequently than another doesn't put them ahead in the queue.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

Many football matches have been rescheduled on police instruction due to issues with public transport.

 

[Mikey C]

Trains are often heavily crowded with Christmas shoppers on Saturdays in late November, especially to and from places like Birmingham or Manchester. Trains are often heavily crowded on hot sunny days in early August too, especially ones going to places like Bournemouth, Rhyl or Scarborough. Those aren't really special events, anyone can show up if they wish and buy a ticket.

Unfortunately public transport is... well, open to the general public. Anyone can show up and buy a ticket, and if they behave well they must be allowed to travel. That is kind of the core point. The fact that one person is using the service more frequently than another doesn't put them ahead in the queue.

Indeed, I went to a game in Birmingham in December, and my Chiltern train was rammed by the time it got to Moor Street, with people going to the Christmas market.

 

[dm1]

To give an example of how it can be done, in Switzerland, when getting licences to hold these kinds of large events (be that planned/regular or temporary/one-off), a key component is a detailed transport plan covering how attendees are expected to arrive and depart, including the required funding. A strong focus is put on maximising public transport mode share. In practice this often means parking restrictions near event venues, additional trains running (at least partially funded by the event organisers - covering at least marginal operating costs), and discounts or zonal public transport tickets included as standard in event tickets. For example Eurovision Song Contest tickets included a 20 CHF discount on SBB tickets and a zonal pass covering the city of Basel as part of the ticket.

In some cases, even additional temporary wooden platforms have been built to serve a big event. Additional stops on regular services are also standard, where appropriate.

For football/hockey matches there are often specific fan trains. These use (somewhat) ruggedised rolling stock and are typically given slower, non-takt paths. The fans usually don't mind, as the trains themselves are considered a part of the event, and it keeps opposing fans apart from one another and away from ordinary passengers.

If you don't accept paying for the additional capacity, your event just won't get a licence. There was a bit of a diplomatic scandal recently because of the winter Olympics, where Switzerland expected many visitors to go to them via Switzerland, so did the standard planning process for large events and then tried to charge Italy for it. It's unclear if they got very far...

In the UK context, the main limitation is the massive fragmentation of the industry, missing rolling stock, and in many cases infrastructure that is just not extensive enough to serve demand or handle these kinds of events properly e.g. platforms that are too short, even when extending them would not be difficult or expensive. It's also a mindset thing, to SBB serving big events is part of their role as a public transport provider and they plan accordingly. That said, the majority of rolling stock is only fully utilised at peak times, so is generally available for events outside of those times, especially during weekends. The rest is mostly already there for other reasons e.g. replacing late international trains.

 

[Topological]

It is unclear what some people want here.

Both Manchester United and Manchester City play well outside the city centre of Manchester. Neither has a local station. Both make extensive use of the Metrolink and have set up services/stations accordingly. There are queuing systems in place that support concerts at the nearby venues too (Co-Op live in City's case, Lancashire County Cricket Club in the Old Trafford case). What are the two clubs being asked to provide in terms of national rail?

The police in Manchester are clearly happy with the provision for football crowds, and for crowds attending music at both venues. It may be noted that Old Trafford is not used that much for music compared to The Etihad.

It is very rare to have an away fan following above 3000 people. Of those, you are probably only looking at 600 taking the train as an absolute maximum. So even assuming that they are travelling from the same start point you are only looking at one long train. I suspect the numbers using trains are actually a lot lower than that as well.

So then you are looking at the home support. Supporters come to Manchester from all over the country, so where should the provision for home supporters be? London (jokes about United etc.)? In reality, they are just another group of people who use trains.

Now lets look at what happens in practice. The train companies manage to strengthen one service. OK after the game, there is probably an obvious one, but before the game? Strengthen the train that departs the visiting teams station at 10:00? Arrives at the destination at 13:00? (assuming a 15:00 kick off). But what about those who get to the pubs in the destination town at 11:00? What about those who prefer to arrive around 12:00? What about those who do get there at 13:00? How can you strengthen all of those? I always found the train companies did make an effort to strengthen, but that it was not necessarily the particular combination of trains that everyone chose.

The main thing is that we encourage use of public transport rather than driving. Driving creates far more problems than having crowds on trains.

 

[Hadders]

A full capacity event at Twickenham stadium requires a full SWR train service to be operating. A few years agio Harlequins Rugby Club had an 82,000 sell out Premiership Rugby match scheduled at Twickenham between. There was a rail strike and the event could not take place because of it.

The match was moved to Harlequins normal home ground that has a 15,000 capacity where a full SWR train service isn't a requirement for a match to go ahead.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

It happens frequently. But as you didn't know stadiums had to be licenced, it figures that you don't notice it when fixtures- or any other event- have to be rescheduled due to public transport issues.

Coldplay had to reschedule several concerts at Wembley Stadium last year because of TfL strike action, just as one example.

 

[The exile]

I am not aware that any power exists to for example prohibit a particular football match, I could be wrong but I am never aware of it having happened.

At least one match at Rotherham was postponed last year because of flooding - not of the pitch, but of the surrounding area. I would imagine S Yorks police were a prime mover in that decision, not the club.

 

[Topological]

It has only been a recent thing that the TV companies have been able to move local derbies to fit their schedules. Previously the derby games were given earlier kick offs and policed in a way that kept the fans apart (and out of the pub). I couldn't say I have been in pubs at 8am because of an early kick off though, that would be wrong and naughty for 11:00 opening.

 

[The exile]

It happens frequently. But as you didn't know stadiums had to be licenced, it figures that you don't notice it when fixtures- or any other event- have to be rescheduled due to public transport issues.

Coldplay had to reschedule several concerts at Wembley Stadium last year because of TfL strike action, just as one example.

Getting into hair-splitting mode - I suspect it very rarely gets as far as a prohibition, for two reasons: 1) Continuing to run an event contrary to Police advice is likely to risk invalidating liability insurance and 2) when your licence comes up for renewal, ignoring Police safety “advice” (certainly if not just a one off) is likely to be grounds for refusal.

 

[6Gman]

May I suggest.........

Firstly as far as I can see stadiums etc seem to have a blanket permit to put on what they like, unlike 'one offs' eg Glastonbury Festival

Deleted - point already made by others.

 

[Haywain]

It has only been a recent thing that the TV companies have been able to move local derbies to fit their schedules

That can still only be done by the consent of the safety authority, which includes the police.

Previously the derby games were given earlier kick offs and policed in a way that kept the fans apart

That still happens.

I couldn't say I have been in pubs at 8am because of an early kick off though, that would be wrong and naughty for 11:00 opening.

Are you unaware that licensing laws changed over 20 years ago, and that many pubs open well before 11:00 either regularly or for special events such as football matches?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Getting into hair-splitting mode - I suspect it very rarely gets as far as a prohibition

True enough. I was more meaning it in general terms, where events or fixtures are re-arranged due to transport issues.

As you say, if the police and transport authorities say something is dangerous, it isn't going to get as far as an outright prohibition. Stadium operators will do as suggested.

 

[Mikey C]

The police do have a say with fixture scheduling. Apart from moving tense games to lunchtime to reduce pre match drinking, in the FA Cup they wouldn't have 2 local teams both playing at home on the Saturday.

 

[JamesT]

The police do have a say with fixture scheduling. Apart from moving tense games to lunchtime to reduce pre match drinking, in the FA Cup they wouldn't have 2 local teams both playing at home on the Saturday.

It's not just the FA Cup. When the league fixtures are put together they avoid scheduling nearby teams at home on the same day/weekend.

 

[Topological]

That can still only be done by the consent of the safety authority, which includes the police.

That still happens.

Are you unaware that licensing laws changed over 20 years ago, and that many pubs open well before 11:00 either regularly or for special events such as football matches?

It was a pre-licencing law change, early opening

Well, certainly the police seem more willing to entertain later kick-offs in some of the bigger derbies than they used to be. One of the Manchester derbies ended up with a lot of trouble after they went for the 16:30 kick-off instead of the earlier slot. So yes, the police can say no, but the evidence suggests that there are more later kick-offs than there used to be.

For many a year I would talk with the policeman who travelled with my team as liaison - I had more a reputation for being a slightly funny one who drank in "old man pubs" rather than being one of the trouble makers though

 

[Starmill]

True enough. I was more meaning it in general terms, where events or fixtures are re-arranged due to transport issues.

As you say, if the police and transport authorities say something is dangerous, it isn't going to get as far as an outright prohibition. Stadium operators will do as suggested.

British Transport Police intelligence often results in the deployment of buses and sometimes even additional trains. Presumably they get a lot of intelligence from the local force and the event promoters who know how many tickets are sold.

It's also common that trains to and from the football are specially protected from cancellations due to shortages of units or staff, even if it means others are left with longer waits.

I see it's the Grand National this weekend. On Saturday there are an absolutely enormous number of extra trains between Liverpool and Aintree, and some of the Ormskirk services are likely to be longer than usual. There are also two extras each way between Preston and Ormskirk.