Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[brad465]

Has a date for the first BREL unit C4 overhauls (or whatever the overhaul that is seeing BREL unit bogies going to Crewe is) been confirmed yet?

 

[Stephen42]

It would be nice to know what the strategy actually is, when it comes to scrapping Networkers. Is it literally on a like for like basis, so that an equal number of Networkers carriages are removed as SE gain 707 and 377 carriages, will SE have a net increase in carriages or indeed will there be a net reduction?

And as a mixture of units have been withdrawn, it's not as if just the GEC ones are being withdrawn.

A slightly different question is how the number of diagrammed vehicles have changed. This is comparing May 22 timetable to December 25 on Monday to Thursday. 15 lost 465s, 18 466s (ignoring stabled diagrams) is 96 carriages. 12 additional 707s, 12 more 377s (or 14 if count previously stabled now passenger services) is 108 carriages. The 376s have dropped by 2 I'd assume due to ongoing refurbishment which leaves a slight increase.

(The HS1 395s have dropped one likely due to the unit at Eastleigh. The mainline 375s have remained the same aside from a pair of stabled diagrams being removed.)

For comparing 2019 to 2026 in vehicles: 112 465s have been on the allocations feed in passenger service (including 465927 last worked end Feb) and 16 466s remain. On those numbers that's 35 465s and 27 466s or 194 vehicles missing which will be an overestimate as not all removed. The additions are all the 707s and 11 377s (as they lost 2 then gained 13) is also 194 vehicles.

1) might be beyond economic repair, but why did their maintenance regime allow just certain units to deteriorate and become uneconomic whilst others are still economic to repair. If economic to maintain, why not look after all of them.
2) No operator should ever cut the sidings to a point where any disruption or an extra train means can't accommodate it.
Doesn't make any rational sense to have extra units then plan to fail some later. Cheaper just to get correct number and ensure have stock of spares.

The biggest challenge for the Networkers is obsolescence. It depends what's broken whether spares are readily available, hard to get, require custom manufacture or are near impossible to replace. The few being scrapped now have failures that aren't economic to repair and will provide extra spares. The Networkers need to last till their replacements start coming into service. Depot mishaps, level crossing incidents, electrical fires can cause issues that no level of spares will rectify.

Southeastern haven't cut their sidings. One road has been lost due to safety issues at Dartford but that's it. They have received additional stock without new sidings bringing them closer to the maximum theoretical capacity. Increases to stabling capacity usually get delivered alongside new fleets. It's plausible that the Networker replacement announcement comes with additional stabling capacity if materially increasing the number of vehicles.

 

[brad465]

Southeastern haven't cut their sidings. One road has been lost due to safety issues at Dartford but that's it. They have received additional stock without new sidings bringing them closer to the maximum theoretical capacity. Increases to stabling capacity usually get delivered alongside new fleets. It's plausible that the Networker replacement announcement comes with additional stabling capacity if materially increasing the number of vehicles.

I'd like to think that siding will be reinstated with the new fleet; it was taken out due to third rail proximity to walkways, but the new fleet with batteries makes third rail in sidings obsolete. As the Up Sidings only really seem to stable Networkers (the down siding is almost always 376/707), the next fleet will just takeover those sidings on a like-for-like basis.

For comparing 2019 to 2026 in vehicles: 112 465s have been on the allocations feed in passenger service (including 465927 last worked end Feb) and 16 466s remain. On those numbers that's 35 465s and 27 466s or 194 vehicles missing which will be an overestimate as not all removed. The additions are all the 707s and 11 377s (as they lost 2 then gained 13) is also 194 vehicles.

The top end of the original tender IIRC is 540 vehicles, equal to 135x 4-car equivalent. The bold sum is 120x 4-car equivalent, so assuming 10-15 units is in line with how many would actually be utilised on a given day, this would be a like-for-like, so there's no additional capacity by carriage numbers. However, if changing numbers behind the scenes is possible, they may increase the size of the order if anticipated passenger growth has been revised upwards since the last order (which I think is possible given the moves to restore almost all pre-covid services this December).

 

[Stephen42]

The top end of the original tender IIRC is 540 vehicles, equal to 135x 4-car equivalent. The bold sum is 120x 4-car equivalent, so assuming 10-15 units is in line with how many would actually be utilised on a given day, this would be a like-for-like, so there's no additional capacity by carriage numbers. However, if changing numbers behind the scenes is possible, they may increase the size of the order if anticipated passenger growth has been revised upwards since the last order (which I think is possible given the moves to restore almost all pre-covid services this December).

To clarify, those numbers are the operational units not the passenger service daily diagrams. Of those 480 vehicles 95 465s and 11 466s are diagrammed to be out, a total of 402 vehicles. Most large Electrostar fleets have 90% availability and some other EMU fleets are higher. If those 480 operational vehicles were replaced like for like but with 90% availability that would be another 30 vehicles out in daily service. If achieve class 450 level of availability those 480 vehicles could produce 44 extra vehicles out in daily service compared to Networkers.

The tender had a top end of 570 vehicles, with an option for an additional 70 vehicles that could be called immediately. If maxing out at 640 vehicles with 90% assumed availability is 576 vehicles in service each day. That would be 40% more vehicles diagrammed than the Networker fleet or 25% more if compared to the current Southeastern metro fleet. That's likely beyond what's feasible to run in peaks as the 376s and 707s can't be lengthened.

 

[ScotGG]

I can't see a Networker replacement being approved by the Treasury. Far too much macro economic uncertainty now.

Inflation is going up, interest rates will go up, leasing costs will go up. Passenger numbers are unknown as an economic downturn seems likely. The Treasury aren't giving the green light in those conditions. Make do and mend for another year or two at minimum before a decision taken.

 

[bramling]

To clarify, those numbers are the operational units not the passenger service daily diagrams. Of those 480 vehicles 95 465s and 11 466s are diagrammed to be out, a total of 402 vehicles. Most large Electrostar fleets have 90% availability and some other EMU fleets are higher. If those 480 operational vehicles were replaced like for like but with 90% availability that would be another 30 vehicles out in daily service. If achieve class 450 level of availability those 480 vehicles could produce 44 extra vehicles out in daily service compared to Networkers.

The tender had a top end of 570 vehicles, with an option for an additional 70 vehicles that could be called immediately. If maxing out at 640 vehicles with 90% assumed availability is 576 vehicles in service each day. That would be 40% more vehicles diagrammed than the Networker fleet or 25% more if compared to the current Southeastern metro fleet. That's likely beyond what's feasible to run in peaks as the 376s and 707s can't be lengthened.

Is there an assumption that the 376 fleet will remain, or is that not a given? I could see a fuss being made about the fact they’re not air conditioned.

 

[frankmoh]

Is there an assumption that the 376 fleet will remain, or is that not a given? I could see a fuss being made about the fact they’re not air conditioned.

They are all being refurbished so yes. Hopefully SE does not do something like what SWR did a few years ago.

 

[SECR 65]

The HS1 395s have dropped one likely due to the unit at Eastleigh.

I know that class 395 availability is an ongoing struggle. The requirement for operable units out of the fleet total is quite high (only a couple spare I think). Every few weeks there is a post on the SE WhatsApp channel saying a Hish Speed service is short formed from a 12 to a 6.

 

[Mikey C]

I can't see a Networker replacement being approved by the Treasury. Far too much macro economic uncertainty now.

Inflation is going up, interest rates will go up, leasing costs will go up. Passenger numbers are unknown as an economic downturn seems likely. The Treasury aren't giving the green light in those conditions. Make do and mend for another year or two at minimum before a decision taken.

Masses of housing being built in SE London and along the Thames. It's not a decision that can be put off for too much longer.

They are all being refurbished so yes. Hopefully SE does not do something like what SWR did a few years ago.

The 376 refurbishment is the bare minimum though, rather than a sign of a long term investment in the fleet.

And it would be crazy for the SE Metro to have 3 types of trains operating it for the next 15 years until the 376s are due to be replaced.

 

[GEC465]

And it would be crazy for the SE Metro to have 3 types of trains operating it for the next 15 years until the 376s are due to be replaced.

It's not really crazy now compared to virtually 4 types of train there is now. (Counting the BREL and GEC as 2 separate units)
The sooner the networkers go the better

 

[Mikey C]

It's not really crazy now compared to virtually 4 types of train there is now. (Counting the BREL and GEC as 2 separate units)
The sooner the networkers go the better

The current situation is a short term bodge though, rather than something Southeastern planned. If SWR had bought some more 707s from Siemens instead of the 701 Aventras, the 707s wouldn't have moved to Southeastern.

If they just replace the Networkers, then SE will have 3 separate fleets for the next 15 years, all totally unrelated.

 

[A60stock]

depends on the season. In the summer a 707 is preferred due to aircon, but 707 or networker over 376 every time. I time my commute to avoid 376 wherever possible

Ahhh didn't expect a 376 to down the pecking order, below a networker! In particular because the 376s are being refreshed

 

[SpannerWeilder]

Coach 72037 (I think off 465005) just spotted by a friend on a lorry at Cobham services

I was driving back towards Kent yesterday evening and I saw this heading west around 8pm, destination unknown. I did a brief double-take seeing a train zipping down the opposite carriageway!

 

[NCT]

Another case of our dithering combined with no longer having sufficient home-grown factories is costing us more overall.

Rolling stock supply chain has been global, or at least European for quite some time and that clock isn't going back. If anything Brexit has caused blockages of essential parts coming into the UK.

 

[bramling]

Rolling stock supply chain has been global, or at least European for quite some time and that clock isn't going back. If anything Brexit has caused blockages of essential parts coming into the UK.

It’s notable that a number of fleets seem to have this issue of having difficulty in spare parts availability. The 165/166 fleet for sure, and pretty much all the LU fleets have units long-term out of service. The Jubilee Line for example has at least one train that has been out of service for several years now, and getting to the point where one wonders if it will return.

 

[The_Train]

Anybody know where 465005 and 466016 ended up to meet their maker?

 

[LA50041]

Ahhh didn't expect a 376 to down the pecking order, below a networker! In particular because the 376s are being refreshed

376 are being refreshed with charging sockets and new seat covers, but still no air-con and a “cooling” system that pumps warm air around so you can charge your phone whilst gently roasting.
At least Networkers have a decent amount of opening windows that actually allow air flow

 

[Krystal]

Anybody know where 465005 and 466016 ended up to meet their maker?

Sandbach. Apparently 465032 also met that fate near that time. We also got 465021 being moved from Grove Park sidings to go to Slade Green depot for stripping and eventual disposal as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2026 ==

Okay, let's recount the BREL and ABB 465s real quick. 465005, 465032 and 465188 all gone for scrap. We've got 465021, 465027, 465038 and 465196 that hasn't run in passenger service for a while. 465045, 465175 and 465169 are in short-term storage at Dollands Moor.

The four immobile trains have not run in passenger service since at least 2025, with 465027 apparently stored at Gillingham since November 2024 (17 months of dormancy!)
About these four trains (minus 465021 getting ready for scrap), does anyone know what's up with all of them?

 

[brad465]

When do the C4 overhauls start? I wouldn't be surprised if many of the BREL units out of action, but could have a future still, are waiting for this, given the extent of maintenance involved.

 

[brad465]

Unless some 377/3s suddenly become available, then 10-car 377 formations can work to Tunbridge Wells, as they do with Networkers. Freeing those up from the Coastway and sending them to Southeastern seems to have its merits.

What net gain can we identify Southern needing?

I was thinking of 4+3+3 (or even 4+4+3) formations using the 377/3s. I'm sure that the 5-car units aren't on offer.

Something I was thinking about with Tunbridge Wells' long term: if Southeastern's Networker replacement takes over the Medway Valley and Sheerness branches, then the 3-car 375s could be cascaded to the Tunbridge Wells' route to form some 10 and 11-car services. The 3-car 375s are not the most suitable for branch lines, and if 4-car units take over the branches, there is room for growth along them (Kemsley is seeing 1000+ homes being built right next to the station as one example). The branches require 5x 375/3s, so if all 5x Tunbridge Wells' diagrams became 375, you could form 5x 11-car, or maybe 2x 10-car and 1x 11-car (or vice-versa), with the remaining two being something like 707s, assuming the Networker replacement cannot form 10 or 11-car trains.

 

[C377]

Sandbach. Apparently 465032 also met that fate near that time. We also got 465021 being moved from Grove Park sidings to go to Slade Green depot for stripping and eventual disposal as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2026 ==

Okay, let's recount the BREL and ABB 465s real quick. 465005, 465032 and 465188 all gone for scrap. We've got 465021, 465027, 465038 and 465196 that hasn't run in passenger service for a while. 465045, 465175 and 465169 are in short-term storage at Dollands Moor.

The four immobile trains have not run in passenger service since at least 2025, with 465027 apparently stored at Gillingham since November 2024 (17 months of dormancy!)
About these four trains (minus 465021 getting ready for scrap), does anyone know what's up with all of them?

465021 is not going for scrap. It is being rebuilt, as will all the Networkers in short-term storage at Dollands Moor.
Only 032/005/188 were designated for scrap, no more BREL units are going to be scrapped at the moment, however the fate of the dormant units that haven't ran in ages is still undecided.
Southeastern are also looking at potentially scrapping 3 /9s units, however not sure if that's going ahead anymore. No more 466s are to be scrapped as well for the time being.

 

[Mattplans]

That inspires a lot of confidence in the procurement process.

 

[brad465]

465021 is not going for scrap. It is being rebuilt, as will all the Networkers in short-term storage at Dollands Moor.
Only 032/005/188 were designated for scrap, no more BREL units are going to be scrapped at the moment, however the fate of the dormant units that haven't ran in ages is still undecided.
Southeastern are also looking at potentially scrapping 3 /9s units, however not sure if that's going ahead anymore. No more 466s are to be scrapped as well for the time being.

When you say rebuilt, are they basically having everything that's not the bodyshell replaced? Are they going to have different-sounding traction motors again? (I'm guessing not for the latter, but given the word "rebuilt" is used I feel compelled to ask)

 

[C377]

When you say rebuilt, are they basically having everything that's not the bodyshell replaced? Are they going to have different-sounding traction motors again? (I'm guessing not for the latter, but given the word "rebuilt" is used I feel compelled to ask)

No, by rebuilt I mean it's a full renewal/replacement of all the traction equipment underneath and brake systems as the units have been robbed for parts. It'll be pretty much the exact same.

 

[brad465]

No, by rebuilt I mean it's a full renewal/replacement of all the traction equipment underneath and brake systems as the units have been robbed for parts. It'll be pretty much the exact same.

Thank you for confirming, do you know when the (C4?) overhauls start (if they haven't already)?

 

[D365]

When you say rebuilt, are they basically having everything that's not the bodyshell replaced? Are they going to have different-sounding traction motors again? (I'm guessing not for the latter, but given the word "rebuilt" is used I feel compelled to ask)

Bear in mind that the traction motors (Brush for BREL/ABB, GEC for Met-Camm) are still as-built. It’s only the traction converter packages that have modified on BREL/ABB.

 

[C377]

Thank you for confirming, do you know when the (C4?) overhauls start (if they haven't already)?

I'm not entirely sure when 175/169/045 will come back from Dollands Moor to undergo a C4, but I suspect it to be next year.
There's no set time frame really for any of the long-term stopped units to re-enter service but here's a general idea of what's going on with them:

465021 is at Gillingham being 'rebuilt' (having traction equipment renewed) and being prepared to re-enter service later in the year.

465027 is full of mould and has been robbed for traction equipment, presumably later in line to be returned to service.

465038 has been robbed for parts to keep 465156 going. I'm not sure what's going to happen to this unit.

465196 has been out of service for quite a while and has traction and brake issues.

I'm guessing 038 and 196 may be scrapped eventually but they could also be returned to service if there's sufficient parts.

465901 has had parts robbed to keep 465902 going, but this is minimal at the moment and 901 will probably return to service in a few weeks.

 

[brad465]

I'm not entirely sure when 175/169/045 will come back from Dollands Moor to undergo a C4, but I suspect it to be next year.
There's no set time frame really for any of the long-term stopped units to re-enter service but here's a general idea of what's going on with them:

465021 is at Gillingham being 'rebuilt' (having traction equipment renewed) and being prepared to re-enter service later in the year.

465027 is full of mould and has been robbed for traction equipment, presumably later in line to be returned to service.

465038 has been robbed for parts to keep 465156 going. I'm not sure what's going to happen to this unit.

465196 has been out of service for quite a while and has traction and brake issues.

I'm guessing 038 and 196 may be scrapped eventually but they could also be returned to service if there's sufficient parts.

465901 has had parts robbed to keep 465902 going, but this is minimal at the moment and 901 will probably return to service in a few weeks.

Thank you for this.

 

[Mattplans]

This video https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/2059786562339025291 of the aftermath of someone removing all of the seats on a Networker train and stuffing them in the toilet is doing the rounds on social media. This isn't a new issue and I've known of it to happen before but I can't say I've experienced it firsthand (I have a feeling it's a problem on the Vic-Orp route on the last services of the night, if it's a common issue at all)


But this is honestly such a silly design. It's not like Southeastern regularly clean and exchange these cushions. What on earth is the point?

 

[GEC465]

This video https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/2059786562339025291 of the aftermath of someone removing all of the seats on a Networker train and stuffing them in the toilet is doing the rounds on social media.

Video you sent I assume was recently, the one where the seat parts was lobbed in the toilet was sometime last year. Either way it's amusing how loose the seats are