Scarborough to Beverley - How Long in 1964

[Andy873]

Could anyone give an estimate of how long it would take from Scarborough to Beverley (this was only part of the return journey) in 1964, this was a period return journey pulled by a steam locomotive not diesel please?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

Even in Summer 1962 most trains were diesel, but the 6.00 p.m. (SX) Scarborough took 1.37. The 4.30 p.m. (SO) took 1.44 and the 7.15 p.m. took 1.20. N.b. You are asking about the main station in Scarborough, not Filey Holiday Camp which I have seen described as ‘Scarborough’.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks for that.

Filey Holiday Camp

There is every possibility it did indeed call there, I'm told many did.

 

[Gloster]

There is every possibility it did indeed call there, I'm told many did.

There do not appear to be any trains that ran from Scarborough to Filey Holiday Camp and then on southwards: they all seem to terminate or start there. Most of the Holiday Camp starters were loco hauled, but none called at Beverley and most probably cut across from Driffield to Market Weighton.

One that I missed was the 8.15 a.m. from Scarborough that allowed a change into a probably steam train at Bridlington or Driffield, giving a Beverley arrival at 9.53. The diesel indication in the timetable only refers to DMUs, those wonders of the modern world, so it can only be presumed that trains without the marking were still steam.

 

[Magdalia]

The early 1960s were a period of rapid change and it isn't always easy to pinpoint exactly when trains changed from steam to diesel traction.

A quick look through Railway Observer does suggest that steam was much less common at Scarborough in 1964 than 1963, but it mainly talks about the York route. 1964 was also a significant year because trains that had previously run via Market Weighton were diverted to run via Beverley.

Going in and out of Filey Holiday Camp added significantly to the time, this would have happened on many summer Saturday holiday trains but not on day excursions.

I only have the ER timetables, which show the Hull-Scarborough route from 1968. Prior to that, the trains to/from Bridlington/Scarborough only appear in the timetable once they arrive on the Eastern Region.

For 1964 the summer Saturday trains via Beverley were:

9.40am Filey Holiday Camp-Sheffield Victoria arrives Rotherham Central at 12.27pm.
10.20am Scarborough-Derby arrives Pontefract Baghill at 12.51pm.
10.37am Scarborough-Kings Norton arrives Pontefract Baghill at 1.34pm.
12.10pm Filey Holiday Camp-Kings Cross arrives Doncaster at 2.9pm.
1.27pm Bridlington-Woodhouse arrives Stainforth and Hatfield at 2.59pm.
2.20pm Scarborough-Nottingham arrives Doncaster at 4.52pm.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone.

I couldn't find my notes concerning this trip so had to go and get another copy. It seems this particular train, the 1X50 started at Scarborough but didn't go to the Filey holiday camp, it was pulled by Black 5 - 44990. I do remember what I was told by the spotter, he said he was at school back then (early / mid teens), and that he used to attend school on Saturday mornings (presumably for extra tuition). Because of this, he was spotting typically on Saturday afternoons, usually between 12.30 to 3pm. He lived in Beverley, and the main line passed the rear garden.

Based on one of the traditional excursion routes, they often came via Skipton, then onto Earby, Colne, Nelson, Burnley etc for the Burnley town holidays.

Do you think a start time of say 11am from Scarborough sounds close?

 

[mike57]

The Facebook group 'Hull to Scarborough line, past and present' may be able to offer some help, as a few of the members used to work the line.

 

[Gloster]

As the reporting number was 1X?? the train would quite likely not have called at many intermediate stations, possibly only the ‘holiday’ ones of Filey and Bridlington, or none at all. Whether it would be any faster because of that would depend on how easy it was to fit it into the timetable.

 

[Magdalia]

Thanks everyone.

I couldn't find my notes concerning this trip so had to go and get another copy. It seems this particular train, the 1X50 started at Scarborough but didn't go to the Filey holiday camp, it was pulled by Black 5 - 44990. I do remember what I was told by the spotter, he said he was at school back then (early / mid teens), and that he used to attend school on Saturday mornings (presumably for extra tuition). Because of this, he was spotting typically on Saturday afternoons, usually between 12.30 to 3pm. He lived in Beverley, and the main line passed the rear garden.

Based on one of the traditional excursion routes, they often came via Skipton, then onto Earby, Colne, Nelson, Burnley etc for the Burnley town holidays.

Do you think a start time of say 11am from Scarborough sounds close?

In the early 1960s Grammar schools usually had lessons on Saturday mornings, we are probably talking about a Saturday before end of term.

1X50 would be a special for the LMR, internal NER specials would be 1Zxx and NER->ER specials would be 1Fxx. The time suggests an end of wakes week special taking returning holidaymakers back to the LMR. But I think a train going via the Skipton route would go via York not Beverley.

The more likely route from Beverley is Selby, Normanton and then the Calder Valley line. BR Database says that 44990 was a Mirfield loco in 1964.

Looking at the list of public timetable trains above 1X50 is probably after 10.37am Scarborough-Kings Norton but before 1.27pm Bridlington-Woodhouse.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The June 1964 NER timetable is available on 'TimetableWorld' (for free). (Table 13).

NER June 1964

 

[Andy873]

As the reporting number was 1X?? the train would quite likely not have called at many intermediate stations

Absolutely agree with that.

The more likely route from Beverley is Selby, Normanton and then the Calder Valley line. BR Database says that 44990 was a Mirfield loco in 1964.

Another good point, I missed the fact that 44990 had just been allocated to Mirfield which as said, suggests the route was via the Copy Pit line back to East Lancashire.

The June 1964 NER timetable is available on 'TimetableWorld' (for free). (Table 13).

A good spot, thanks. I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding this 1964 timetable, could someone have a look please - I'm looking for a suitable gap in traffic from say 12.30pm to around 3pm on Saturdays only in the Beverley area?

 

[unslet]

The June 1964 NER timetable is available on 'TimetableWorld' (for free). (Table 13).

NER June 1964

May I ask how is it available free of charge? When I look at the site, it states a fee of £6. Thank you.

North Eastern Region 1964-06 [Great Britain] – Timetable World

timetableworld.com

 

[Magdalia]

I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding this 1964 timetable, could someone have a look please - I'm looking for a suitable gap in traffic from say 12.30pm to around 3pm on Saturdays only in the Beverley area?

This might sound counter-intuitive, but I'd start with the Bridlington times, because everything calls there, then look at the Beverley times for the stopping trains to Hull.

The stopping trains depart Bridlington at 10.55am, 11.52am, 12.45pm and 1.41pm, roughly intervals of 55 minutes. Each of these call at Beverley, and, except for the slower 1.41pm, take about 30 minutes to get to Beverley.

Now look at what departs Bridlington between 10.55am and 11.52am: there are long distance departures from Bridlington at 11.5am, 11.14am, 11.25am and 11.42am, so we know they can fit in at least 4 other trains in a 55 minute gap between local trains, possibly 5 if something can run between 11.25am and 11.42am.

The gap between the 11.52am and 12.45pm local trains has Bridlington departures at 12.19pm, 12.27pm and 12.37pm, so there is a gap for 1 or 2 trains to depart Bridlington between 11.52am and 12.19pm (say at 12noon and 12.10pm) passing Beverley about 30 minutes later.

The gap between the 12.45pm and 1.41pm local trains has Bridlington departures at 1.4pm and 1.27pm, so there is a gap between 12.45pm and 1.4pm (say at 12.55pm), a gap between 1.4pm and 1.27pm (say at 1.15pm), and possibly also a gap between 1.27pm and 1.41pm (say at 1.35pm), given that the 1.41pm gets further behind when it stops at some of the smaller stations before Driffield.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

A good spot, thanks. I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding this 1964 timetable, could someone have a look please - I'm looking for a suitable gap in traffic from say 12.30pm to around 3pm on Saturdays only in the Beverley area?

Table 7 summarises Beverley to Hull if that is easier. (Including through trains from York via Market Weighton).

May I ask how is it available free of charge? When I look at the site, it states a fee of £6. Thank you.

North Eastern Region 1964-06 [Great Britain] – Timetable World

timetableworld.com

If you click on the timetable icon you can view it - there is a charge to download it as a PDF.

 

[Magdalia]

(Including through trains from York via Market Weighton).

I had forgotten those. The 12.31pm York-Hull is at Beverley at 1.27pm, southwards from Beverley it fills the gap between the 12.45pm and 1.4pm departures from Bridlington.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the early 1960s Grammar schools usually had lessons on Saturday mornings, we are probably talking about a Saturday before end of term.

Ref sat morning school. Private schools too. Often well into late twentieth century. Possibly still do.

1X50 would be a special for the LMR, internal NER specials would be 1Zxx and NER->ER specials would be 1Fxx. The time suggests an end of wakes week special taking returning holidaymakers back to the LMR. But I think a train going via the Skipton route would go via York not Beverley.

The more likely route from Beverley is Selby, Normanton and then the Calder Valley line. BR Database says that 44990 was a Mirfield loco in 1964.

Looking at the list of public timetable trains above 1X50 is probably after 10.37am Scarborough-Kings Norton but before 1.27pm Bridlington-Woodhouse.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks all.

On the basis that the spotter's notes are in order as seen going past his garden, we have the following but no timings recorded:

1L92 Filey to Leeds. (Does not say Holiday Camp for this, but other trains do).
1X05 Scarbrough to Padiham. (Not 1X50 as I had misread).
1S51 Hull to Edinburgh.

Can anyone help please - For example, can we find the time of the Hull / Edinburgh train should have passed Beverley? and the Filey to Leeds train before?

 

[Magdalia]

1L92 Filey to Leeds. (Does not say Holiday Camp for this, but other trains do)

The distinction is important. Table 13 on page 164 has 10.5am Filey-Leeds (Bridlington dep 10.30am) and 10.58am Filey Holiday Camp-Leeds (Bridlington dep 11.25am). These are likely to be through Beverley about 30 minutes after departing Bridlington, if running on time.

1S51 Hull to Edinburgh.

This is in table 8 on page 155, 11.10am from Hull and 11.23am from Beverley. Note this first runs on 11 July.

On the basis that the spotter's notes are in order as seen going past his garden

The observations may be from the classroom window!

The full record is likely to be of wider interest, especially any locos that are not local to Hull and York. From what you have quoted it seems an impressively detailed record.

For 1964 the summer Saturday trains via Beverley were:

1E20 9.40am Filey Holiday Camp-Sheffield Victoria (Bridlington dep 10.7am).
1M72 10.20am Scarborough-Derby(Bridlington dep 11.5am).
1M76 10.37am Scarborough-Kings Norton (Bridlington dep 11.42am).
1E27 12.10pm Filey Holiday Camp-Kings Cross (Bridlington dep 12.37am).
1E92 1.27pm Bridlington-Woodhouse.
1M82 2.20pm Scarborough-Nottingham (Bridlington dep 3.6pm).

I'd definitely be interested in what was working all of these, and the corresponding workings going the other way. I have added headcodes and Bridlington departure times to aid identification.

 

[RT4038]

Ref sat morning school. Private schools too. Often well into late twentieth century. Possibly still do.

Nowadays usually restricted to those schools with boarding pupils. Of course, if they have day pupils too, they will have to go in on Saturday mornings and often take part in the sport on Saturday afternoons. The compensation for this is much longer holidays at Christmas/Easter and end of school year.

 

[WesternLancer]

Nowadays usually restricted to those schools with boarding pupils. Of course, if they have day pupils too, they will have to go in on Saturday mornings and often take part in the sport on Saturday afternoons. The compensation for this is much longer holidays at Christmas/Easter and end of school year.

ah yes - that was how it was at least in the 1980s

 

[Andy873]

I'd definitely be interested in what was working all of these, and the corresponding workings going the other way. I have added headcodes and Bridlington departure times to aid identification.

The following is a link to the topic on the LNER Encyclopaedia website - Loco log T9 has the Scarborough to Padiham spot in it, there are also notes covering 10/11/12 of July 1964.

LNER Encyclopaedia

I think there's something here for everyone!

If it wasn't for the spotter's notes, a small but important piece of history regarding the North Lancs loop line would have been lost. It is just possible that perhaps another period return might have run in 1965, however Beeching was determined to stop what he considered to be a complete waste of time and money and I cannot find anything to support one running in 1965.

 

[Magdalia]

The following is a link to the topic on the LNER Encyclopaedia website - Loco log T9 has the Scarborough to Padiham spot in it, there are also notes covering 10/11/12 of July 1964.

Thanks for the link, it is a good find.

I was vaguely aware of the LNER Encyclopaedia website, but it is a very long time since I looked at it.

If it wasn't for the spotter's notes, a small but important piece of history regarding the North Lancs loop line would have been lost. It is just possible that perhaps another period return might have run in 1965, however Beeching was determined to stop what he considered to be a complete waste of time and money and I cannot find anything to support one running in 1965.

I think that 1964 being the last year is the most likely. A similar case is the Higham Ferrers Branch, which had its last seaside specials in 1964.

 

[stuving]

Nowadays usually restricted to those schools with boarding pupils. Of course, if they have day pupils too, they will have to go in on Saturday mornings and often take part in the sport on Saturday afternoons. The compensation for this is much longer holidays at Christmas/Easter and end of school year.

And working on Saturday was out of the question in the 1960s for state grammar schools (such as the County Grammar Schools opened in the early 1900s, one of which I went to). So it could only apply in the traditional grammars, truly private or "direct grant" (though I think they were called something else at the time). There were of course all manner of other things organised at weekends.