CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Russel]

Chester is the hub of the network, at least in terms of routes the 197s will be serving in the long term. That trumps any decision over which country their staff should be residing in. Nowhere else on the network either side of the border makes sense.
Incidentally, between traincrew, station, maintenance and support staff there's probably close to a 4 figure number of employees based in England. Should they all be let go in favour of Welsh people?
Bear in mind it is a rail network for Wales & Borders, not just the principality.

It's not as though Canton can't do anything with the 197s, it's just for heavier maintenance they need to go north. Ramping up Canton for more would likely have been challenging to do soon enough for it to be of any use.

The plans in place would have been fine if the 231s were in service on mainline routes and the ETCS 197s on the Cambrian and being maintained at Machynlleth, which was supposed to have happened by now. Once all of that fails into place, things should be a lot better.

What is the delay with the 231s?

 

[berneyarms]

Bizarre TFW employing staff at Chester in England to support a Welsh service, surely the depot should be in Wales ?

It is CAF who maintain the Class 197s at Chester.

 

[Russel]

It is CAF who maintain the Class 197s at Chester.

And CAF are a Spanish company, so if we're going down the nationalism route, the depot should be in Spain!

 

[craigybagel]

What is the delay with the 231s?

They're still needed on the Valleys, covering for the late running 398s.

And CAF are a Spanish company, so if we're going down the nationalism route, the depot should be in Spain!

Indeed - presumably replacing the facilities in France that should have been used when it was run by Alstom!

 

[Cardiff123]

The plans in place would have been fine if the 231s were in service on mainline routes and the ETCS 197s on the Cambrian and being maintained at Machynlleth, which was supposed to have happened by now. Once all of that fails into place, things should be a lot better.

Is there any truth to the rumours that after the timetable change in May, all of the remaining 150s will be put on the Treherbert / Aberdare / Merthyr lines to allow the 756s & 231s to move on to their final routes and free up the 197s?
There's no indication of the 398s entering passenger service in enough numbers anytime in the near (or distant) future to allow 756s and 231s to move onto their final routes, so just how long can TfW expect to keep going with no viable cover for the absent 398s, aftecting the rest of the network?
150s taking over all lines through Pontypridd seems like the only realistic plan, if it's true

 

[Caaardiff]

Because for what ever reason, TfW think that 197 maintenance has to be confined to Chester depot and nowhere else, instead of doing the sensible thing, and having some units based at Cardiff Canton. Whoever came up with the idea of having all units undergo maintenance at Chester really needs firing.

Bizarre TFW employing staff at Chester in England to support a Welsh service, surely the depot should be in Wales ?

Just to clear up this speculation. TFW do not employ CAF staff. CAF are a separate entity and TFW lease the trains from them. CAF maintain them.
I believe Hitachi has the same setup with GWR.

In an ideal world it would all come under TFW, but it doesn't. CAF make money from the TFW contract through their ongoing maintenance. There is a plan for some maintenance to be done at Canton but in many TOC/Train manufacture contracts, it's the contracts that come before common sense and the passenger. It's no different in how Alstom worked the 175's, but with a much smaller fleet.

CAF also have a factory in Newport, Wales. Logically it made sense to take over Chester from Alstom and save the expense of building a new Depot that's ready to go, albeit in hindsight might not be big enough for the uplift in units. Would seem a bit inefficient to abandon a relatively new Depot and build a new one, just to say it's in Wales.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2026 ==

Is there any truth to the rumours that after the timetable change in May, all of the remaining 150s will be put on the Treherbert / Aberdare / Merthyr lines to allow the 756s & 231s to move on to their final routes and free up the 197s?
There's no indication of the 398s entering passenger service in enough numbers anytime in the near (or distant) future to allow 756s and 231s to move onto their final routes, so just how long can TfW expect to keep going with no viable cover for the absent 398s, aftecting the rest of the network?
150s taking over all lines through Pontypridd seems like the only realistic plan, if it's true

There's only a couple of 150's that work mainline routes, so it wouldn't be enough to displace the Stadler fleet to Mainline. The plan for May was only 1-2 398's to work Cardiff Bay services anyway.

 

[VR494]

Is there any truth to the rumours that after the timetable change in May, all of the remaining 150s will be put on the Treherbert / Aberdare / Merthyr lines to allow the 756s & 231s to move on to their final routes and free up the 197s?
There's no indication of the 398s entering passenger service in enough numbers anytime in the near (or distant) future to allow 756s and 231s to move onto their final routes, so just how long can TfW expect to keep going with no viable cover for the absent 398s, aftecting the rest of the network?
150s taking over all lines through Pontypridd seems like the only realistic plan, if it's true

This is still the plan, there are a few 150 diagrams on the mainline that will be reverting to 153. The mainline DI's have been learning 231 in the background, and 756's will displace some units from the Rhymney line. The 398s are supposed to be coming on the 8th June to the Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay diagrams. Then the fun will start, and I'm not being negative about them on purpose, they are that bad!

197045 is also in a real mess, the interior is caked in dangerous mould. It's going to need a full refit!

 

[Russel]

Is there any truth to the rumours that after the timetable change in May, all of the remaining 150s will be put on the Treherbert / Aberdare / Merthyr lines to allow the 756s & 231s to move on to their final routes and free up the 197s?
There's no indication of the 398s entering passenger service in enough numbers anytime in the near (or distant) future to allow 756s and 231s to move onto their final routes, so just how long can TfW expect to keep going with no viable cover for the absent 398s, aftecting the rest of the network?
150s taking over all lines through Pontypridd seems like the only realistic plan, if it's true

What is the holdup with the 398s?

I haven't really been keeping up...

197045 is also in a real mess, the interior is caked in dangerous mould. It's going to need a full refit!

How was it allowed to deteriorate into that state?

 

[craigybagel]

Is there any truth to the rumours that after the timetable change in May, all of the remaining 150s will be put on the Treherbert / Aberdare / Merthyr lines to allow the 756s & 231s to move on to their final routes and free up the 197s?
There's no indication of the 398s entering passenger service in enough numbers anytime in the near (or distant) future to allow 756s and 231s to move onto their final routes, so just how long can TfW expect to keep going with no viable cover for the absent 398s, aftecting the rest of the network?
150s taking over all lines through Pontypridd seems like the only realistic plan, if it's true

I don't have access to the Valleys diagrams so I can't say for certain. It's definitely plausible, but I'm also aware that there are a few issues around 150/153 allocation going forward into the next timetable that haven't been entirely resolved yet.

 

[Caaardiff]

Apparently some 153s coming out of storage from Landore will help.
231s aren't planned to start on mainline routes until December, so if any will be released from the Valleys before then it'll only be for training.
Until September the ETCS 197s are still going to be a fall back for long term stopped 197s. Be interesting to see what happens after that. Provided all fleets are bedded in by then there should be some more flexibility in the 197s.

Any news on this order for more 197s?

 

[tfw756rider]

Would seem a bit inefficient to abandon a relatively new Depot and build a new one, just to say it's in Wales.

What's stopping a second 197 depot (in Wales) from being built, with both that and Chester being used? Chester depot then wouldn't be abandoned.

 

[BillStampy]

Apparently some 153s coming out of storage from Landore will help.

153325 and 153909 came back from Landore yesterday and were shoved straight into passenger use a few hours after arriving at Canton!
I wouldn't be surprised if more make their way across.

 

[tfw756rider]

What is the holdup with the 398s?

I haven't really been keeping up...

Basically, from what I understand, it's a combination of a few things, like them being stored for a long time not being good for them, units failing to do their fault-free mileage to the point where the required mileage has had to be reduced, something to do with replacement windscreens causing water leaks which may have damaged some electricals, and inconsistencies with coupler electrical wiring causing issues with multiple working.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2026 ==

Any news on this order for more 197s?

I'd like to know too - any news on this from anyone, such as @GaryNeville or @anthony263? (If there is, it's to go in the speculative thread of course)

 

[Caaardiff]

What's stopping a second 197 depot (in Wales) from being built, with both that and Chester being used? Chester depot then wouldn't be abandoned.

Money would likely be the biggest issue. In the grand plans Chester was able to manage the maintenance regime, supported by Machynlleth.
Lets not forget there IS another Depot in Wales, Machynlleth. Which should of been in use by now for CAF.

The reality is the 197s are very unreliable and it doesn't appear that anyone took into account poor reliability when making those grand plans.

Lets not forget TFW are tax payer funded and are investing huge amounts already into its transformation. Just plonking a Depot somewhere at a cost of millions has to be justified. Now, it probably is, whereas before, it probably wasn't.

 

[Envoy]

It all seems to be a hell of a mess! 398’s still not in service; Class 67’s unreliable; Class 197’s unreliable - and that being so, why would TFW consider ordering more?

Canton depot currently not having a working wheel lathe meaning that FLIRT trains have to be towed all the way to Holyhead to get their wheels fixed.

How come 153’s can come out of storage from Landore straight into service yet a new train (197045) gets stored for months on end at Landore and ends up full of dangerous mould and will now require an expensive re-fit?

If it turns out to be true that following the 17 May timetable change that the electric FLIRTS (756’s) get pulled from the central valley routes (Treherbert, Aberdare & Merthyr) and swapped for the old sprinters, people will just say that they (present Welsh government) were just waiting for the election to be over before giving the valleys back their old trains.

 

[amahy]

Money would likely be the biggest issue. In the grand plans Chester was able to manage the maintenance regime, supported by Machynlleth.
Lets not forget there IS another Depot in Wales, Machynlleth. Which should of been in use by now for CAF.

The reality is the 197s are very unreliable and it doesn't appear that anyone took into account poor reliability when making those grand plans.

Lets not forget TFW are tax payer funded and are investing huge amounts already into its transformation. Just plonking a Depot somewhere at a cost of millions has to be justified. Now, it probably is, whereas before, it probably wasn't.

The issue with Machynlleth, is that it's out on a limb, and no closer to West Wales than Chester, from a rail mileages perspective. And, it will only take on 21 units once it is made available, of a total 77 197s. Even in the long term, that's 56 197s undergoing maintenance at Chester, compared to the 27 175s the depot was originally designed for. I never realised that Chester depot had doubled in size... oh wait, it hasn't!

In reference to your point about "plonking a depot somewhere", that's basically exactly what they've done for the 398s, in building a depot at Taffs Well. If anything, I would argue that a new depot is more important for the 197s than the 398s. The 398s are confined to the Valleys lines, where there is already a capable depot in Cardiff Canton. Whereas the 197 fleet is bigger and much more widespread.

 

[Jez]

The issue with Machynlleth, is that it's out on a limb, and no closer to West Wales than Chester, from a rail mileages perspective. And, it will only take on 21 units once it is made available, of a total 77 197s. Even in the long term, that's 56 197s undergoing maintenance at Chester, compared to the 27 175s the depot was originally designed for. I never realised that Chester depot had doubled in size... oh wait, it hasn't!

In reference to your point about "plonking a depot somewhere", that's basically exactly what they've done for the 398s, in building a depot at Taffs Well. If anything, I would argue that a new depot is more important for the 197s than the 398s. The 398s are confined to the Valleys lines, where there is already a capable depot in Cardiff Canton. Whereas the 197 fleet is bigger and much more widespread.

I agree it would have been better to have the 398's at Canton given the new depot at Taff's Well is very close. And they would have been better investing that money in a new depot somewhere in the South for the 197s.

As you say Chester has gone from 27 x 175s to 56 x 197s. No wonder the depot cannot cope. They couldnt cope when they had 27 x 175s and a small amount of 197s to look after. And I believe the depot in machynlleth is mostly going to be doing light work with the 197s being cycled to visit Chester like the 158's visit Canton.

It is good that more 153s are coming back into service - they will be needed in the South from the May TT change with the 197s taking priority for the extra North Wales services given that Sprinters (aside from 158s) cannot run in North Wales anymore.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On the face of it 36 x 398s coming into use will take a lot of pressure off existing fleets. Particularly reducing the number of 197s in South Wales. Taffs Well or a depot like it was the solution, the problem IS electrification delays and the 398s.

I am not saying the 197s are as reliable as they should be though. But with 150s and 158s gone even Canton might have more space to maintain 197s, not just Machynlleth.

 

[D365]

197045 is also in a real mess, the interior is caked in dangerous mould. It's going to need a full refit!

How was it allowed to deteriorate into that state?

I'm quite shocked that the use of desiccant (silica) bags was not mandated. These were deployed quite successfully on a number of Class 379 and Class 701 units whilst they were in storage.

 

[Caaardiff]

The issue with Machynlleth, is that it's out on a limb, and no closer to West Wales than Chester, from a rail mileages perspective. And, it will only take on 21 units once it is made available, of a total 77 197s. Even in the long term, that's 56 197s undergoing maintenance at Chester, compared to the 27 175s the depot was originally designed for. I never realised that Chester depot had doubled in size... oh wait, it hasn't!

In reference to your point about "plonking a depot somewhere", that's basically exactly what they've done for the 398s, in building a depot at Taffs Well. If anything, I would argue that a new depot is more important for the 197s than the 398s. The 398s are confined to the Valleys lines, where there is already a capable depot in Cardiff Canton. Whereas the 197 fleet is bigger and much more widespread.

I agree it would have been better to have the 398's at Canton given the new depot at Taff's Well is very close. And they would have been better investing that money in a new depot somewhere in the South for the 197s.

As you say Chester has gone from 27 x 175s to 56 x 197s. No wonder the depot cannot cope. They couldnt cope when they had 27 x 175s and a small amount of 197s to look after. And I believe the depot in machynlleth is mostly going to be doing light work with the 197s being cycled to visit Chester like the 158's visit Canton.

It is good that more 153s are coming back into service - they will be needed in the South from the May TT change with the 197s taking priority for the extra North Wales services given that Sprinters (aside from 158s) cannot run in North Wales anymore.

Canton wouldn't have the space to stable and maintain 398's and the 231's & 756's. So that was never an option.

Chester Depot hasn't doubled in size, but it's handling a throughput of what the Depot is capable to handle. It's just unfortunate the 197's are not reliable units. As a Depot it was under utilised handling just 27 175's.

As has already been said. The issue is that the contract is with CAF to maintain the 197's, a ballsup of a contract many would agree. You can have multiple TFW Depots all over the country, but if CAF won't (contractually) allow TFW to maintain their units, then it's pointless having all those Depots.
Sadly, this setup is more about money than the passenger. Hopefully soon some changes will be brought in to allow the likes of Canton and Holyhead to do some work on 197's meaning they won't need to go back to Chester for certain repairs.

It all seems to be a hell of a mess! 398’s still not in service; Class 67’s unreliable; Class 197’s unreliable - and that being so, why would TFW consider ordering more?

Canton depot currently not having a working wheel lathe meaning that FLIRT trains have to be towed all the way to Holyhead to get their wheels fixed.

How come 153’s can come out of storage from Landore straight into service yet a new train (197045) gets stored for months on end at Landore and ends up full of dangerous mould and will now require an expensive re-fit?

If it turns out to be true that following the 17 May timetable change that the electric FLIRTS (756’s) get pulled from the central valley routes (Treherbert, Aberdare & Merthyr) and swapped for the old sprinters, people will just say that they (present Welsh government) were just waiting for the election to be over before giving the valleys back their old trains.

It's not great but it's hardly unexpected. The delays to introductions was inevitable and happens all the time. The Mk4's have been fairly reliable lately, just appears to be a bad few days. Again, happens all the time, all over the UK network.

The 153's are in storage and likely getting regular checks, and a quick exam and back into service. 197045 had a major failure. Something obviously fell down with regards to the mould, but two competely different scenarios. Apples and pears.

It's not true that Flirts will come off Valleys services. There is no plan for any mainline work for them in May as no-one is trained on them, the only use might be for crew training.

It's already been explained to you about the lathe, so not sure why it continues to be brought up as the worst thing in the world. The works needed to happen, hence it being closed and alternatives needed. Not ideal, but essential.

 

[43096]

It's already been explained to you about the lathe, so not sure why it continues to be brought up as the worst thing in the world. The works needed to happen, hence it being closed and alternatives needed. Not ideal, but essential.

And now is absolutely the right time to do work on the lathe, rather than, say, during the autumn.

 

[amahy]

Canton wouldn't have the space to stable and maintain 398's and the 231's & 756's. So that was never an option.

The numbers say otherwise. Under Arriva Trains Wales, the following units were maintained at Canton:
- 3x 67 + Mk3 sets
- 15x 142s
- 15x 143s
- 36x 150s
- 8x 153s
= total of 77 trainsets

Here is Transport for Wales' currentCanton allocation:
- 7x 67 + Mk4 sets
- 11x 231s
- 24x 756s
= total of 42 trainsets

If you added the 398s to the Canton allocation, that would make 78 trainsets allocated to Canton, just one more than ATW's allocation. So, judging by the numbers, Canton is significantly under capacity, currently. It would be reasonable to expect at least some of the 197s to be allocated there, to relieve pressure on Chester, and provide dedicated units for 197 work in South Wales.

As you say Chester has gone from 27 x 175s to 56 x 197s. No wonder the depot cannot cope. They couldnt cope when they had 27 x 175s and a small amount of 197s to look after. And I believe the depot in machynlleth is mostly going to be doing light work with the 197s being cycled to visit Chester like the 158's visit Canton.

Chester Depot hasn't doubled in size, but it's handling a throughput of what the Depot is capable to handle. It's just unfortunate the 197's are not reliable units. As a Depot it was under utilised handling just 27 175's.

There seems to be conflicting information here...

 

[tfw756rider]

I saw this in Aberystwyth today and immediately thought 197119 Too bad it doesn't have ETCS!

(Image shows a 'Mistar Urdd 50' mural on the side of a building).

 

[DS25]

I saw this in Aberystwyth today and immediately thought 197119 Too bad it doesn't have ETCS!

(Image shows a 'Mistar Urdd 50' mural on the side of a building).

I quite like the idea of having the Mistar urdd livery and hopefully more special liveries in the future, like having one of the etcs 197s have a cambrian livery like the AT 153’s

 

[Caaardiff]

The numbers say otherwise. Under Arriva Trains Wales, the following units were maintained at Canton:
- 3x 67 + Mk3 sets
- 15x 142s
- 15x 143s
- 36x 150s
- 8x 153s
= total of 77 trainsets

Here is Transport for Wales' currentCanton allocation:
- 7x 67 + Mk4 sets
- 11x 231s
- 24x 756s
= total of 42 trainsets

Sorry, this is completely wrong. It's not about the fleet types, it's about what is also stabling and the space on the Depot.

Mk3/4's are not maintained at Canton, they are maintained at Arriva Crewe. Mk4's are effectively stabling with some light maintenance.

Canton only had one overnight Mk3 as a 4+2 config = 6
30 pacers = 60 carriages
36 150 = 72 carriages
8 153 = 8 carriages

Total carriages = 144

TFW
2x Mk4's as 5+2 config (10 carriages + 2 locos + 2 DVTs) = 14
11 231s = 44
7 756/0 = 21
17 756/1 = 68
6 Active Travel 153s 12

Total carriages = 159

But what you're missing out there is the number of 197's stabled, which I believe is about 10-12 of varying 2 and 3 cars. Much more than the number of 175's stabled. So the Depot is at capacity whether it's for stabling or for maintenance.

There seems to be conflicting information here...

CAF took on the 175 maintenance during the changeover. There were issues as the 175's were being handed back as the maintenance had to be done before hand, meaning units weren't stabling elsewhere across the network like they would have been if they were in service

 

[31160]

The difference travelling on a train in Wales is really night and day compared with 10 year's ago, it isn't perfect, but then what is, but it's many times better

 

[Jez]

There seems to be conflicting information here...

I meant that Chester struggled to look after the 175s once the 197s came in. We had over a year of 150s and 153s being the main traction on the Manchester-South Wales services.

 

[Russel]

The difference travelling on a train in Wales is really night and day compared with 10 year's ago, it isn't perfect, but then what is, but it's many times better

Fully agreed.

And lets be realistic, TFW are far from alone in regards to new fleet introductions being a bit shambolic, things take time to bed in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2026 ==

I'm quite shocked that the use of desiccant (silica) bags was not mandated. These were deployed quite successfully on a number of Class 379 and Class 701 units whilst they were in storage.

You'd think it would be common sense really, especially given how cheap it would be compared to a deep clean or refit.

 

[Jez]

Does anyone have a list of how many 197s are stabled at each location overnight? It would be interesting to see a comparison of how many 175s were stabled overnight at these locations. I think at the moment 197s are stabled at Canton, Carmarthen, Chester, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Holyhead, Llandudno Junction and possibly Hereford?

 

[tfw756rider]

I think at the moment 197s are stabled at Canton, Carmarthen, Chester, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Holyhead, Llandudno Junction and possibly Hereford?

And if you count non-passenger, 3 197s at Machynlleth They're staying there for longer now.