XC Voyager Refurbishment

[Thunderer]

It’s not just doubling up that increases capacity. Every time a 5 car set is used in a service that used to be 4 car then there is a significant uplift in standard class capacity.

I’d hardly call 40+ seats a significant uplift in standard capacity seating

 

[duffield]

I’d hardly call 40+ seats a significant uplift in standard capacity seating

The figures I've seen say it's around 60 extra standard seats in a 5 car vs a 4 car (i.e. 240 vs 160), and I make that a 37% increase in standard capacity. I would definitely call that "significant".

 

[John R]

I’d hardly call 40+ seats a significant uplift in standard capacity seating

As noted above, 220/160 is a 37.5% increase. Do you not regard that a significant increase?

 

[Class 317]

As noted above, 220/160 is a 37.5% increase. Do you not regard that a significant increase?

The exact figure is 262 seats versus 200 if it's a XC set and not AWC ones.

 

[43102EMR]

Since when did either of those groups of people matter to XC

2000 and never

 

[sprinterguy]

The exact figure is 262 seats versus 200 if it's a XC set and not AWC ones.

Or 236 seats versus 174, counting standard class capacity only, which was the original intent. So a 35.6% [corrected] increase, which is pretty significant.

 

[19Gnasher69]

Or 236 seats versus 174, counting standard class capacity only, which was the original intent. So a 34.5% increase, which is pretty significant.

Surely, when talking about such short trains, percentages aren’t really relevant - 34% of not very much is still not very much.
We should be looking at it in absolute terms and considering how many extra seats are needed to make a sufficiently meaningful addition so that passengers can sit for their journeys, the catering trolley can pass through and people can actually get to the toilets.

 

[sprinterguy]

Surely, when talking about such short trains, percentages aren’t really relevant - 34% of not very much is still not very much.

Perhaps; I was just continuing with the yardstick established by previous posters.

 

[John R]

Surely, when talking about such short trains, percentages aren’t really relevant - 34% of not very much is still not very much.
We should be looking at it in absolute terms and considering how many extra seats are needed to make a sufficiently meaningful addition so that passengers can sit for their journeys, the catering trolley can pass through and people can actually get to the toilets.

If you have 236 standard class passengers on a train with 236 seats, the travelling environment for passengers will be much better than if over 60 of them have to stand. And luggage space will be better too.

 

[19Gnasher69]

If you have 236 standard class passengers on a train with 236 seats, the travelling environment for passengers will be much better than if over 60 of them have to stand. And luggage space will be better too.

Because the trains are so short, providing 236 standard class seats is only going to be adequate some of the time. Admittedly a little more often than if 174 seats are available but I’ll warrant not that more often.

 

[BillStampy]

220023, new refurbished Voyager, allocated into service tomorrow.

 

[CR165022]

Left Derby yesterday with another one going in, anyone know which unit went in?

 

[150249]

Left Derby yesterday with another one going in, anyone know which unit went in?

220001? Or is that unit already there

 

[CR165022]

220001? Or is that unit already there

It wasn't, before 023 left, the other ones there were 021 & 025. So 001 might be the one that went in yesterday

 

[150249]

It wasn't, before 023 left, the other ones there were 021 & 025. So 001 might be the one that went in yesterday

Yeah I saw a Facebook post saying that 220001 was being handed over for some reason or another. Presumably it was being handed over for refurbishment as it was already said in #1961 that it was one of the next few due in.

 

[Snex]

Surely counting the number of people on board is completely pointless when a fair chunk of people are nowhere near the train in the first place, since they're overpriced to supress demand...

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely counting the number of people on board is completely pointless when a fair chunk of people are nowhere near the train in the first place, since they're overpriced to supress demand...

And it also won't count those left on the platform because they've been unable to board.

 

[John R]

Because the trains are so short, providing 236 standard class seats is only going to be adequate some of the time. Admittedly a little more often than if 174 seats are available but I’ll warrant not that more often.

You'll warrant? What evidence do you have to support such a claim?

What you have to remember is that a set increase from 4 to 5 coaches is only one part of the overall increase.

Just taking a two hour period around Cheltenham this morning, there are three diagrams that are 2x4 (on the NE/SW corridor), four that are a 5 car set, and only 1 that is a 4 car set. Switching a 5 car diagram to a 2x4 car diagram will result in a big increase in capacity, and releases a 5 car set to strengthen a previous 4 car set diagram, which then releases another 4 car set to help double up another diagram. From my bedroom window (between Bristol and Taunton) I see many more double sets now than I did before.

We know that XC is talking to the govt to try and get the remaining 221s - somehow I am doubtful they will succeed in loosening the purse strings, but the fact is that there has been a significant increase in capacity which should be welcomed, even if we would all like more.

 

[19Gnasher69]

You'll warrant? What evidence do you have to support such a claim?

What you have to remember is that a set increase from 4 to 5 coaches is only one part of the overall increase.

Just taking a two hour period around Cheltenham this morning, there are three diagrams that are 2x4 (on the NE/SW corridor), four that are a 5 car set, and only 1 that is a 4 car set. Switching a 5 car diagram to a 2x4 car diagram will result in a big increase in capacity, and releases a 5 car set to strengthen a previous 4 car set diagram, which then releases another 4 car set to help double up another diagram. From my bedroom window (between Bristol and Taunton) I see many more double sets now than I did before.

We know that XC is talking to the govt to try and get the remaining 221s - somehow I am doubtful they will succeed in loosening the purse strings, but the fact is that there has been a significant increase in capacity which should be welcomed, even if we would all like more.

As much evidence as you have that incremental increases in seating will make a huge difference.
Though, rather than watching the trains from your bedroom window, perhaps you could try travelling on them between York and Birmingham.
But we’re going around in circles and I think that we’ll have to agree to disagree on XC’s current efforts and hope that they can target the busier services for doubling up. Like you I’m sceptical that XC will be successful in getting the additional 221s but the need for them remains pressing.

 

[150249]

I personally think XC are doing reasonably well considering their resources. I appreciate how quickly they seem to be churning out refurbished sets. They are a huge improvement.

 

[Mainline421]

Surely counting the number of people on board is completely pointless when a fair chunk of people are nowhere near the train in the first place, since they're overpriced to supress demand...

Overpriced? Expensive maybe, but underpriced by every rational economic measure!

 

[Chriso]

Is that now 4 refurbed units in service?

 

[route101]

With a five car set replacing a four car set, that means a whole coach of unreserved seating available.

 

[Snex]

Overpriced? Expensive maybe, but underpriced by every rational economic measure!

Not sure on that one mind. Obviously I don't have any data to back it up, either way, but a lower price with more people can be more than less people and higher prices.

When you've got 4 car trains, you can't fill them up with people from Newcastle to Bristol or other long journeys though hence people fly instead as they're highly uncompetitive.

When there's flights, there's clearly demand as easyJet aren't flying planes for the charities sake.

 

[CR165022]

Is that now 4 refurbed units in service?

Not quite, 023 was due out yesterday but then didn't, and so hasn't re-entered service just yet

 

[Dave61]

As much evidence as you have that incremental increases in seating will make a huge difference.
Though, rather than watching the trains from your bedroom window, perhaps you could try travelling on them between York and Birmingham.
But we’re going around in circles and I think that we’ll have to agree to disagree on XC’s current efforts and hope that they can target the busier services for doubling up. Like you I’m sceptical that XC will be successful in getting the additional 221s but the need for them remains pressing.

I'm fairly neutral on this as long as it means the end of a single 2 car set (in place of the expected 3 car) on the Nottingham-Birmingham leg of the Cardiff route, even a 3 becomes a sardine tin in Tamworth.

 

[duffield]

I'm fairly neutral on this as long as it means the end of a single 2 car set (in place of the expected 3 car) on the Nottingham-Birmingham leg of the Cardiff route, even a 3 becomes a sardine tin in Tamworth.

I'm not sure how increases to the Voyager fleet will have any effect on the 170 services from Nottingham, unless you're suggesting they might use some of the Voyagers on Nottingham to Cardiff? I suppose if some 4 coach Voyagers could be spared they would at least provide a seat uplift over a 2 coach 170 (the four coach 220s have about the same seats as a 3 coach 170), and maybe then more of the two coach 170s could be run as pairs. I know the Voyagers are cleared for the entire route but I guess maybe more currently 170 only drivers would need traction training? It's an interesting thought, maybe not beyond the bounds of possibility if XC do get the extra units they've asked for. But I suspect they'll all end up being used on the current Voyager routes.

 

[M60lad]

I remember someone was asking when will we actually see 2 refurbished units working together? Well today you will be able to as both 220033 and 220028 are planned to operate 1S33 0703 Birmingham New Street-Edinburgh service.

 

[Thunderer]

220023 is also another refurbed set out today currently working the 1V62 12:05 Edinburgh-Plymouth with 220002

 

[150249]

220023 is also another refurbed set out today currently working the 1V62 12:05 Edinburgh-Plymouth with 220002

Only going as far as Bristol Temple Meads