Fine for 17 year old at Leeds

[hennypenny2807]

Hi, I’m not sure if we can do anything about this now as we’ve just paid it through fear of it increasing.

My daughter attends college in Leeds. She normally has a monthly or weekly train passes with the 16-17 saver option. A couple of weeks ago she boarded the train from Bingley and opened her app to get ready to pay. She then noticed it ran out the day before. She thought she’d pay when the conductor came, but they didn’t. At Leeds station she went to the office to buy a ticket and was issued with a fine.

She has almost 2 years worth of train passes, she went to the booth to pay. She was trying to pay not trying to get away with it. It just seems crazy that they’d pounce on a 17 year old like that. She said the guy in the booth was really awful to her and made her cry.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2026 ==

My question is- do we have a case?
Can I still appeal?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Welcome to the forum. A few questions for my clarification (I'm unfamiliar with that route's ticketing):

1. How does she buy her passes (i.e. train company app, or other ticket-seller app such as Trainline)?

2. What are the 'passes': tickets valid for a continuous week / continuous month? Or something else?

3. What is '16-17 saver option': is it a 16-17 Railcard discount (and does she have a valid 16-17 Railcard)? Or is it a different means of ticket discount?

4. You say she "opened her app to get ready to pay" - why did she get ready to pay, if she'd thought her travel pass was still valid?

5. What exact document was she issued with? A Penalty Fare Notice? (Only a Law Court can issue a Fine). Please upload a screenshot of the document (with the personally-identifiable details masked out).

6. Does her train service offer a "pay on the train" facility? The vast majority of UK trains do not offer that facility and people must have a valid ticket before boarding.

 

[hennypenny2807]

The passes are on her phone - it’s like a QR or barcode I think ( I’m not 100% as I don’t use it - but she shows the app and they scan it as her ticket - that’s what I meant by she opened her phone to pay- think I worded it wrong , I meant to show the pass. The 16-17 is something you apply for for half price fares when they’re a student. That’s still valid. it was the monthly pass that’s run out. It ran out the day before but she didn’t know. We usually get the monthly one, but if it runs out near to a college break we get a weekly one to take her up to half term.
I know people definitely pay on the train but I’m not 100% on if it’s allowed to be honest. Like I said I’m not a train user but in the occasion I’ve definitely see people paying.
This is what she was given then we got one through the post.

Like I said, she did pay the fine as I heard it hard to appeal. I just felt bad for her as when she opened the app she say there’s wasn’t a pass there ( it disappears when it’s run out), no conductor came and she went to pay at the booth in Leeds.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, I’m not sure if we can do anything about this now as we’ve just paid it through fear of it increasing.
My daughter attends college in Leeds. She normally has a monthly or weekly train passes with the 16-17 saver option. A couple of weeks ago she boarded the train from Bingley and opened her app to get ready to pay. She then noticed it ran out the day before. She the thought she’d pay when the conductor came but they didn’t. At Leeds station she went to the office to buy a ticket and was issued with a fine.
She has almost 2 years worth of train passes, she went to the booth to pay. She was trying to pay not trying to get away with it.
Just seems crazy that they’d pounce on a 17 year old like that. Sh said the guy in the booth was really awful to her and made her cry

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2026 ==

My question is- do we have a case?
Can i still appeal?

If this was a Penalty Fare you have 21 days from date of issue to appeal. Does not matter if you paid it, that would be refunded if appeal upheld.

Assume you secured the 50% prompt payment discount by paying within 21 days? If so that’s good.

I’m afraid there will be signage around the station saying you need to buy a valid ticket before boarding and PFs are the way minor errors like this are dealt with. They don’t care if you have a regular track record of paying / were not intentionally fare dodging (there are harsher sanctions they should use for deliberate evasion eg threat of court prosecution).

Having said that there’s nothing to lose by submitting an appeal, but if you share information requested in previous post PF experts here will advise on strongest grounds you might potentially have to submit an Appeal with best chance of success.

Check you still have time to appeal though. If the deadline is imminent eg midnight tonight just appeal on any basis because there are three stages so lodging stage one ahead of deadline buys time to lodge a more effective stage two Appeal if deadline is on you now.
Ie check date on PF that it really was two weeks ago not longer.

 

[Haywain]

What is '16-17 saver option': is it a 16-17 Railcard discount

I imagine it's a 16-17 Saver, which is the correct name for the product used to obtain a discount. It is not called a 16-17 Railcard.

 

[WesternLancer]

The passes are on her phone - it’s like a QR or barcode I think ( I’m not 100% as I don’t use it - but she shows the app and they scan it as her ticket - that’s what I meant by she opened her phone to pay- think I worded it wrong , I meant to show the pass. The 16-17 is something you apply for for half price fares when they’re a student. That’s still valid. it was the monthly pass that’s run out. It ran out the day before but she didn’t know. We usually get the monthly one, but if it runs out near to a college break we get a weekly one to take her up to half term.
I know people definitely pay on the train but I’m not 100% on if it’s allowed to be honest. Like I said I’m not a train user but in the occasion I’ve definitely see people paying.
This is what she was given then we got one through the post.

Like I said, she did pay the fine as I heard it hard to appeal. I just felt bad for her as when she opened the app she say there’s wasn’t a pass there ( it disappears when it’s run out), no conductor came and she went to pay at the booth in Leeds.

It’s easy to appeal, just less easy to appeal and win…

Looks like your post crossed with mine so thanks for further info.

As an aside for future reference if she bought a rail season ticket, discounted with her 16-17 saver, it should be possible to buy it for exact days of the length of her term if desired, this might help. I believe this has always been the case - it’s what I did when I went to college by train.

You are now not supposed to buy a ticket on a train if boarding at a station with ticket office or ticket machine. This is confused because many train guards will still sell you a ticket on board so that sends mixed messages. But the ticket booth staff at barrier in Leeds will never, it seems, use any discretion to allow that.

It’s also worth knowing that ticket inspectors hand scanning machines to scan and check tickets are set up to alert them to tickets bought on board a train after it has departed the boarding station, which can also trigger a potential PF, so avoid doing that too.

 

[hennypenny2807]

It’s easy to appeal, just less easy to appeal and win…

Looks like your post crossed with mine so thanks for further info.

As an aside for future reference if she bought a rail season ticket, discounted with her 16-17 saver, it should be possible to buy it for exact days of the length of her term if desired, this might help. I believe this has always been the case - it’s what I did when I went to college by train.

You are now not supposed to buy a ticket on a train if boarding at a station with ticket office or ticket machine. This is confused because many train guards will still sell you a ticket on board so that sends mixed messages. But the ticket booth staff at barrier in Leeds will never, it seems, use any discretion to allow that.

It’s also worth knowing that ticket inspectors hand scanning machines to scan and check tickets are set up to alert them to tickets bought on board a train after it has departed the boarding station, which can also trigger a potential PF, so avoid doing that too.

Really? That’s so harsh!

 

[WesternLancer]

Really? That’s so harsh!

Possibly but it’s because sadly fare evasion is seemingly endemic in the uk so some people will board a train knowing they will not get checked and maybe going to a station with no exit barriers so can avoid paying anything at all, but then pay if they spot the inspector coming down the carriage so they can look legitimate.

I know perfectly respectable people who think nothing of doing this.

It’s called ‘pay when challenged’ evasion.

Plenty of threads on here about it from people caught doing it and being threatened with prosecution.

 

[yorkie]

Really? That’s so harsh!

Train companies such as Northern are very keen to be harsh to customers; see my post from the other day (relating to West Midlands Trains, who have a similar view of their customers to Northern):

Appeal Advice - Penalty Fare at Canley [CNL] - Genuine Error regarding Starting Station

Hello all, I am seeking advice on appealing a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) issued on 1st April 2026. Journey Details: Actual Start Station: Canley [CNL] Intended Destination: London Euston [EUS] Route Taken: Boarded the 11:31 service at CNL on 31st March. Ticket Held: Advance Single, Coventry...

www.railforums.co.uk

Basically, some (albeit not all) train companies are empowered by the Government to issue higher than normal "fares", which are called Penalty Fares to people who make honest mistakes under certain circumstances; if the train company believes someone has deliberately avoided the fare, they may prosecute instead.

Technically speaking, a Penalty Fare isn't a fine; an actual fine (as imposed by a court) would be even greater (albeit this would be subject to means testing) but would also come with a criminal record.

Penalties, Notices and Reports

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Passengers may consider Penalty Fares to be an accusation of fare evasion, but this is not the case. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under the Penalty Fare Rules and Regulations.

She said the guy in the booth was really awful to her and made her cry.

Sorry to hear this, but I am not surprised.

You could try complaining to Northern, but I do not think they will do anything. Indeed, companies such as Northern (and others) choose to employ people like this, because train companies of this nature would much rather have staff instil fear into customers than make customers feel valued.

The sort of people who behave this way are behaving in a manner that is consistent with what train companies such as Northern expect them to behave, despite such behaviour being completely unacceptable at any employer I've ever worked at (or ever would be prepared to work for; and I expect this would be true for you too).

For people unfamiliar with how the rail industry behaves and the powers it has, an experience of this nature can be quite a shock. But to those of us who work within the industry, or who regularly travel by rail, what you describe comes as no surprise to us at all.

A 17 year old would be seen by this sort of individual as someone who needs to be taught a lesson and deterred from travelling by train in future, and absolutely not as someone who is to be valued as a future customer for many decades to come.

You could try contacting your MP about this; in theory, if enough people did, then maybe things would change, however I wouldn't get your hopes up. The Government are more than happy for Northern rail to implement these policies, and for their staff to behave this way, and I see no prospect of this changing.

Hi, I’m not sure if we can do anything about this now as we’ve just paid it through fear of it increasing.

You did the right thing to pay it, but yes you can still appeal.

I suggest you read @furlong's post below for some tips; feel free to post a draft letter here, but just don't get your hopes up, as Northern aren't exactly the sort of company that is known to be compassionate or apply common sense.

 

[furlong]

And also please confirm precisely what the expired ticket was - the key details on it, including price, stations, date purchased, expiry date, name of the ticket etc. - or show a picture of it with those details (covering up any personal info). If you're within time to appeal and you win you do get the £50 refunded. They seem (wrongly in my and many other people's views) reluctant to grant this type of appeal - where common sense says no penalty should ever have been issued in the first place - so you need to set out convincing arguments and be prepared to appeal multiple times, showing a solid purchase history and emphasising obvious familiarity with Leeds station knowing it has barriers so there's no way this could ever have been deliberate and then throw in some relevant quotes from the recent ORR review into the industry's sharp practices in this area (which we can show you).

But first, we really must see a picture of the Penalty Fare (we assume) that you've just paid (covering up personal details).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2026 ==

The ticket is important as is the station where the journey began. (If there was only a ticket machine or any ticket office was closed and it was a type the machine didn't sell, you might have another technical line of argument against the penalty. Similarly technical arguments can be made about notices not complying with the regulations.)

Also too late now, but with a 17-year old, their enforcement options were rather limited.

 

[pedr]

The lesson the train companies want people who are issued Penalty Fares to learn - and, potentially, for people they talk to about the penalty to learn - is that every railway passenger should make sure they know, and are correct, that they have a valid ticket before they get on a train. The need to do that hasn’t become embedded in the understanding of the general public yet - particularly as some people travel by train infrequently and often on board staff will sell tickets without explaining that this isn’t something a passenger without a ticket is entitled to.

It feels unfair to penalise people who didn’t realise what the law requires of train passengers, particularly where they have observed (or even experienced) tickets being sold after boarding, and where there’s clearly no intent to travel without paying in the end. It’s also potentially counter-productive as some people will be deterred from using the railways by rude, unpleasant, and adversarial encounters with railway staff. There are various other ways railway revenue could be increased and protected, but this is the one that’s in force at the moment and the bottom line is that everyone is presumed to know all of the criminal law, including local and sector-specific byelaws, and boarding a train without a valid ticket is, in fact, a crime.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The lesson the train companies want people who are issued Penalty Fares to learn - and, potentially, for people they talk to about the penalty to learn - is that every railway passenger should make sure they know, and are correct, that they have a valid ticket before they get on a train. The need to do that hasn’t become embedded in the understanding of the general public yet - particularly as some people travel by train infrequently and often on board staff will sell tickets without explaining that this isn’t something a passenger without a ticket is entitled to.

It feels unfair to penalise people who didn’t realise what the law requires of train passengers, particularly where they have observed (or even experienced) tickets being sold after boarding, and where there’s clearly no intent to travel without paying in the end. It’s also potentially counter-productive as some people will be deterred from using the railways by rude, unpleasant, and adversarial encounters with railway staff. There are various other ways railway revenue could be increased and protected, but this is the one that’s in force at the moment and the bottom line is that everyone is presumed to know all of the criminal law, including local and sector-specific byelaws, and boarding a train without a valid ticket is, in fact, a crime.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that there's quite a lot of truth in the phrase 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'.