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GWR plan to run overnight North Downs Line (Gatwick Airport to Redhill to Reading) services.
- Thread starter stadler
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Indeed, I assume that there's still help points if such an event were to happen, although they might require staffing being normal hours, however I assume that there's other stations which would also have them at similar times.
Even if a station is staffed, they may not be easily identified, or may be busy, and so people may use the help points.
It's incredibly rare for an unstaffed station to be served by a 24 hour service. Sometimes Thameslink trains stop at unstaffed stations in the small hours, but in their case there's usually another train an hour behind. It's not the same as a last train of the night situation because there are contingency plans in place to ensure that the last service of the day is covered, which aren't likely to be in play here. Such contingencies are generally only practical for covering one service at a time, especially because they may require some earlier ones to be cancelled.
Either way, lots of trains are set down only at unstaffed stations late in the evening for precisely this reason. The 2310 from London Charing Cross does not pick up passengers at Pluckley for example, although at the next station Ashford International, it does, despite this being later at night. It's a sensible arrangement which is not uncommon.
A help point that goes to National Rail Enquiries isn't much use. This would also require appropriate control resources for next to no benefit. How many people are going to be wanting Blackwater to Wokingham at 3am? If they do of course they actually can travel as well. Nobody's going to stop them. But they won't be able to claim for the cost of the taxi or compensation for the delay if the train is cancelled, which is the point.
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I think the other point is that you want to limit the risk of antisocial behaviour on such services that are being put on essentially just for airport travellers. Clearly some airport travellers may also exhibit antisocial behaviour, but i think the assumption is that they won't be as likely to do so as people going home from a night out.
Yes, this way, only those who change trains at Gatwick Airport on their way home from their night out will be able to take advantage.
Yes, although I wonder whether in practice on westbound journeys the guard will go through the train immediately on leaving Gatwick Airport, inform the driver of which stations need to be served, then only stop / open the doors at stations where passengers are already aboard. If so, we could see some quick Redhill to Reading journeys if there aren't any passengers for the intermediate stations.Yes, this way, only those who change trains at Gatwick Airport on their way home from their night out will be able to take advantage.
Moreover, given there aren't open calls, I also wonder whether there is any reason at all for these services to stop east of Guildford (other than for the staff to change ends at Redhill). Redhill has night buses to and from Gatwick. Reigate has early morning buses to Gatwick and is a short distance from Redhill, and Dorking Deepdene really isn't a nice place to wait at night. The train could reverse at Redhill without the doors being opened. Again, ensuring there aren't any short distance passengers should reduce the risk of antisocial behaviour.
But surely these are distinct from ordinary services in that they are set down only from a single originating station and have no further advertised pick ups. I agree that any such policy would need to be agreed at an operational level rather than just being a driver / guard whim.
Many operators have a policy that would treat the above as a missed call, which is naturally something that the driver would be very reluctant to do as they wouldn't want to be investigated for it. So this would absolutely be possible but it would need quite a bit of work revising the standard and agreeing it with the union.
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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Confirmation trial will commence this weekend on Saturday mornings and Monday mornings until 12th September 2026.
Departure times as previously reported:
Saturday: 0228 and 0330 from Reading, 0030, 0124 and 0400 from Gatwick
Mondays: 0324 from Reading, 0024 and 0400 from Gatwick
Services will call at Wokingham, Blackwater, North Camp, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene, Reigate, and Redhill, pick up only towards Gatwick and set down only towards Reading, with the exception of the 0400 which are full station calls for both pick up and set down.
Revenue blocks are planned to be in force at Reading.
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Departure times as previously reported:
Saturday: 0228 and 0330 from Reading, 0030, 0124 and 0400 from Gatwick
Mondays: 0324 from Reading, 0024 and 0400 from Gatwick
Services will call at Wokingham, Blackwater, North Camp, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene, Reigate, and Redhill, pick up only towards Gatwick and set down only towards Reading, with the exception of the 0400 which are full station calls for both pick up and set down.
Revenue blocks are planned to be in force at Reading.
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With the exception of request stops, you are absolutely not allowed to skip stops like that. These will be registered as fail to calls and count as a part cancellation.
Direct trains are more generally more preferrable than buses especially for people with luggage. Don't forget these calls are not necessarily just for airline passengers, they are intended for airport workers too.
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Kite159
Veteran Member
Why do I get the image the overtime payments for the revenue officers at Reading will easily outweigh the ticket revenue those extra trains might generate?
185143
Established Member
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If I were being cynical I might suggest that is entirely the point.
Though it will mean GWR will have very accurate data on *exactly* how well used these services actually are.
There is a revenue opportunity, but the far bigger opportunity is political, given Gatwick's owners have been told by the government that the approval to open a second runway is conditional on the proportion of airport users arriving/departing by public transport (mainly trains) increasing to 54%. Given the expansion in the airport's capacity that a second runway would bring, that increase is a very significant number of passengers (think many millions).
So, this is not about a relatively simple railway cost/benefit calculation.
The current normal GWR timetable into Gatwick, first arrival 0555, means travellers aiming for a flight departing before 0800 will have to make alternative arrangements, and they would be chancing it for any flight departures before 0900.
Likewise, the last train from Gatwick departs at 2320 or so. Given that flight delays build up during the day I would be uncomfortable with booking any flight to Gatwick scheduled to arrive after 2130.
Looking at FlightRadar24 for tomorrow (Wednesday) there are:-
- 88 departures before 0800
- another 32 departures from 0800 to 0900
- 87 arrivals after 2130
To put this into perspective, there were 787 takeoffs and landings last Wednesday at Gatwick. So, using the normal GWR timetable, the railway currently is not an option for over a quarter of those flights.
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I've seen how this dynamic works where I live, 20 miles SW of Heathrow Airport. Public transport connections from here to Heathrow were terrible. But, there's now a near hourly coach service, including overnight runs, to the airport. The idea being that it not only encourages locals to use public transport when flying into and out of Heathrow, it also assists airport workers going to/from their jobs.
Does the coach service make money? Extremely unlikely. But it's not the coach company footing the bill, it's the owners of Heathrow Airport as part of their binding commitments to the Government to growing the use of public transport to the airport.
I can see where GWR are going with this. The chances of overnight services on the North Downs paying their way from fare revenue are zero. But ... if the airport is paying?
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marshlinker
Member
Gatwick Airport is the second busiest station on the GWR network after Paddington in terms of rail passengers according to the ORR figures with a substantial increase expected in the near future.
That's like saying Manchester Piccadilly is the busiest station on the XC network.
In that the TOC in question carry very few of those passengers.
Of course, that's not to say that improvements to facilitate more services to be run there
marshlinker
Member
It really isn't. Total passenger flows from GWR stations to Gatwick Airport (the busiest station in the southeast region outside London) must be significant. As well as the revenue flow from the north downs line GWR controls and retains the majority of the revenue from via London traffic. If a few extra north downs trains provides extra journey opportunities when it's unattractive or impossible to cross London that has a potential to expand revenue for the whole GWR network.
Using:
Between 12:00 and 13:00 GWR services show an average of 169 passengers vs 4,000 total for the hour.
The main reason for my statement (even before checking the data) is that the trains are fairly short, they terminate, there's only a total of 4 trains an hour and they don't serve London (is true for XC to Manchester Piccadilly as well as GWR to Gatwick).
In comparison Swindon sees 596 passengers across 10 services in an hour.
I know there's sometimes concern about the data around average loadings, however it would have to be wrong by a significant margin.
marshlinker
Member
You're still missing the point I'm trying to make that the north downs line is a very small part of the total of GWRs revenue to Gatwick Airport. The majority of that will be GWR station (eg Oxford) to Gatwick Airport route +ap Slough, + any permitted, + London etc.
The north downs line trains have the potential to grow that revenue because they make possible journeys by rail that are otherwise impossible given the constraints of flight times.
Gatwick Airport is a massive generator of revenue for the rail industry over a wide area because it is the 22nd busiest rail station on the UK network, outside of Greater London it's the 6th.
OK, so using the data from:
And then asking AI.to summerise it lists the major stations (with passenger numbers to Gatwick Airport) which has any GWR service to it (I've added the NDL, sub 5% and sub 10% notes to highlight the stations which are either onthe North Downs Line, are likely to be >95% or > 90% via non GWR services [Southern, Elizabeth Line, SWR, etc]) it says:
The total passenger count for the 2024/25 year across all stations served by Great Western Railway (GWR) from your complete dataset is 518,942.Using the complete matrix table provided in your backend link, we extracted every hidden station lower down the list that is served by GWR to give you an exhaustive total.
Full Breakdown of GWR-Served Stations (2024/25)The stations are arranged by passenger volumes from highest to lowest:
Reading: 69,600
Guildford: 58,159 - NDL
Redhill: 56,665 - NDL
Southampton Central: 54,496 (sub 5%)
Havant: 29,820 (sub 5%)
Portsmouth Harbour: 27,710 (sub 5%)
Fratton: 27,118 (sub 5%)
London Paddington: 23,285 -(sub 5%)
Portsmouth and Southsea: 20,999 (sub 5%)
Wokingham: 18,915 - NDL
North Camp: 18,110 - NDL
Blackwater: 15,844 - NDL
Fareham: 12,407
Dorking (Deepdene): 11,989 - NDL
Oxford: 11,549
Reigate: 10,872 - NDL
Basingstoke: 9,169 (sub 5%)
Ash: 2,806 - NDL
Crowthorne: 2,699 - NDL
Bristol Parkway: 2,560
Maidenhead: 2,512 (sub 10%)
Shalford (Surrey): 2,493 - NDL
Swansea: 2,350
Taunton: 2,311
West Ealing: 2,292 (sub 5%)
Chippenham: 1,739
Slough: 1,683 (sub 10%)
Gloucester: 1,647
Farnborough North: 1,647 - NDL
Cheltenham Spa: 1,562
Newport (South Wales): 1,495
Sandhurst (Berks): 1,340 - NDL
Stroud (Gloucs): 1,235
West Drayton: 1,222 (sub 5%)
Newton Abbot: 1,214
Tiverton Parkway: 1,211
Totnes: 1,179
Hanwell: 1,154 (sub 5%)
Truro: 1,130
Dorking West: 950 - NDL
Thatcham: 909
Penzance: 895
Even unajusted for stations like Southampton, Portsmouth stations and Brighton (were very few if any would use a GWR service to get to Gatwick, that's 1.05 million passengers a year (as the above is the one way as it's only from Gatwick so needs doubling to allow for passengers to Gatwick)
Over a 360 day year and 14 hours of services a day (roughly 7am to 9pm as outside those times services can be lightly used) that's an average of 209 passengers an hour, so not much more than 169 for the loading for 12 to 1 time slot previously calculated.
If we halve those with my notes (so still assuming a significant number more than is likely the case) the total is 840,000 for the year and so the hourly average is 171.
That's before we consider that when you break down the logistics, the overnight train trial is heavily compromised by the "dead hours" environment of a closed major station, making an airport hotel stay the vastly superior choice for most leisure travelers. As the the reality is waiting 2 to 3 hours at Reading station between 11:30 PM and 2:30 AM is an incredibly poor passenger experience as the retail units, coffee shops, and food outlets inside Reading station close down entirely before midnight and whilst there's waiting rooms passengers are left at a fairly empty station environment.
For a passenger traveling from a dominant hub like Bristol Parkway, Cardiff, or Oxford they either buy a daytime GWR ticket and wait at Gatwick or they endure a grueling multi-hour wait on a deserted Reading platform in the middle of the night, board a 2:30 AM train, and arrive at Gatwick completely exhausted before a long flight or they travel to Gatwick comfortably the evening before on standard daytime services and spend £60 to £90 on a budget airport hotel (like a Premier Inn or YOTEL right at the terminal). They get a full night's sleep, waking up relaxed next to check-in.
Because the benefit over a hotel stay is so limited for general holidaymakers, the overnight service only realistically captures three specific, highly niche demographics, either:
Airport Shift Workers: Staff who live along the North Downs Line (Guildford, Wokingham, Reading) who need to physically get to the airport for a 4:00 AM shift start, or return home after a midnight shift end. They do not require station shops and are just commuting.
Ultra-Budget Backpackers: Travelers fiercely looking to avoid hotel costs at all costs, who are willing to sacrifice a night of sleep and sit in a cold station to save £70 (but want to maximise their day in a city like Cardiff, Bath and the like.
Unexpected Flight Delays: Passengers arriving back into Gatwick late at night whose flights were delayed past the 11:30 PM standard train curfew. This gives them a vital safety net to get back to the Thames Valley instead of being completely stranded at the airport terminal overnight.
Either way the extra from the wider GWR network (i.e. not along the North Downs Line and not via other more attractive routes) is likely to be fairly low (although ticket values for those longer distance travelers where they have a connection which wasn't previously available due to a late night arrival to Reading are likely to be fairly high)
I'm not going to repeat the torrent of numbers above as they miss the bigger point.
The owners of Gatwick Airport have made a binding commitment to the Government that, in return for the approval to build a second runway, the %age of passengers using public transport to/from the airport will increase to 54%.
Currently, 44% of passengers use public transport. That's 18.8 million out of 42.8 million.
But, once the second runway is opened, the airport's capacity will increase to 80 million passengers. If the airport is to meet its 54% commitment the number of passengers using public transport will need to increase from 18.8 million to 43.2 million. That increase is enormous, therefore the airport owners must demonstrate they are doing everything possible to make it happen.
Running overnight services on the NDL is not going to make a huge impact in the greater scheme of things, but, politically, it is an essential part of the jigsaw from the airport owner's perspective.
I daresay the airport will end up subsidising these services as I don't see how the railway's additional costs can be covered in any other way.
Effectively, this trial is really about the railway demonstrating to the airport it can successfully run trains up and down the NDL overnight. A proof of concept if you like.
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TransportHub
Member
I wonder if a set down only request stop has ever been planned? That while unconventional would be the best option for all, no unnecessary slowing down and no meetings with the line manager!
Will it not apply to the Fort William sleeper if there are any station “calls” which are not also token exchange points? OK, so could also pick up but it’s compulsory reservation, so if a) fully booked, b) has no one booked to get off, c) doesn’t have to stop for RETB and d) is running late…
The point of the torrent of numbers as you put it is that vast majority of those from a station with any GWR service are either better suited using an alternative overnight option or are on the NDL (or Reading and so may shift some passenegers from say the Elizabeth Line to the North Downs Line for overnight travel).
I'm not doubting that it'll be great for overnight travel, what I'm questioning is how many other GWR stations will actually benefit from it.
For example the first "proper" GWR station which isn't on the NDL is Oxford and accounts for 2.22% of rail travel to Gatwick and the extra of daily passengers that is linen to be is around 43, so maybe 4 of those overnight if they are fairly evenly spread.
Given the extra return cost for from Oxford over Reading is £13 the extra for that is £49 a day when a service is running and picking up an extra 4 passengers, however the number of days where there's any useful connections is low:
From Oxford arrives to Reading:
Friday 2339
Saturday 00:36 04:39
So no reasonable connections, so there's a need for more night trains (either in the NDL or from Oxford)
Leaving Reading towards Oxford:
Friday 23:26 00:12
Saturday 08:14
So no reasonable connections, so there's a need for more night trains (either in the NDL or from Oxford)
From Oxford arrives to Reading:
Sunday 23:39
Monday 00:39 04:39
So no reasonable connections, so there's a need for more night trains (either in the NDL or from Oxford)
Leaving Reading towards Oxford:
Monday
00:07 no connection
01:14 50 minute change time
04:35 36 minute change time
As such there's only really connecting services on Monday mornings, so there's not really going to be many.
Although more than from Bristol Parkway where the last/first trains mean a long wait, and the passenger numbers are much lower (2,560).
Trust me, the majority of GWRs revenue to Gatwick comes from North Downs stations.
And the proportion of Gatwick passengers using the North Downs line is tiny. And that is not because of there being no night service. The night service trial will add, perhaps, 0.3% to the market share for rail at Gatwick. Every little helps of course.
Thank you. I also see the NDL Gatwick service as a convenient local connector. The proportion of Gatwick passengers travelling long distance to the airport on GWR when Bristol, Birmingham and Cardiff airports perform much the same function will continue to be tiny.
Deepgreen
Established Member
The first set of overnight Gatwick trains ran this morning - has anyone any idea of uptake? They seemed to be on time (not much other traffic to delay them!) but at least one Reading-bound run got earlier and earlier en route, leaving some stations four minutes early. I suppose as they are set down only it is less of an issue, but why are they set down only? There must be a few passengers at places en route (e.g. Reigate to Dorking) who would use them after a night out, and the stations must be open anyway if alighting passengers can get out.
Kite159
Veteran Member
And what percentage of the uptake were genuine passengers for Gatwick compared with people doing it for the novelty factor
I think you have answered your own question - the trains are being provided for airport travellers, not people who have had a night out (although there might be an overlap). The extra revenue isn't worth the potential hassle.
I note that I might find a 0433 train from Reigate to Redhill useful next Saturday morning to connect into the first morning train from Redhill to London. Probably easier all round for me just to walk to Redhill.
I doubt anyone did that. The novelty factor is sonewhat limited, being just a standard Turbo running in the middle of the night.
Deepgreen
Established Member
In that direction you are permitted to board at Reigate - what would be the problem with alighting at Redhill (I can't imagine anyone will prevent you)?