Delay repay on a circular journey with multiple tickets

[RetroCrowe]

Morning all,

This morning, I was planning to do a big track bash using multiple advance singles and split tickets to form a big circular journey out of Crewe. However, the very first train I was planning to take has now been cancelled, which seems to have caused a big butterfly effect that will likely result in my return to Crewe being an hour later than planned. My question is, how will delay repay be calculated here? My journey consists of a total of five tickets, and it essential starts and ends at the same station, so I'm not sure if I'll even be eligible in the first place. The specifics of what tickets I've bought are down below:

- Crewe - Stockport Anytime Day Single (planned to take the 8:27 XC service, but this has been cancelled).

- Stockport - Leicester (split into a Stockport - Sheffield Advance Single and a Sheffield - Leicester Advance Single - I had planned to take the 8:55 from Stockport to Nottingham and the 11:18 from Nottingham to Leicester, but this has now been pushed back an hour because unless the 8:55 is delayed, I can no longer make my connection at Stockport).

- Leicester - Crewe (split into a Leicester - Hinckley Advance Single and a Hinckley - Crewe Advance Single - I had planned to take the 11:18 Leicester to Nuneaton and change onto the 11:54 Nuneaton - Crewe, but this is again likely to be an hour later).

All connections were within the permitted minimum connection times. On paper, I should be entitled to delay repay from XC, but I've never really thought about how delay repay will work on a circular journey with no single "end point"/destination other than the starting station, so any advice would be appreciated.

 

[xotGD]

I would claim for an hour delay for Crewe to Sheffield.

Trying to claim Crewe to Leicester via Stockport might cause excessive faff.

 

[BRX]

Can't XC say that the delay didn't prevent the OP from getting to their destination on time, seeing as they were already there?
Surely the OP has to choose a "destination" that they were actually delayed in getting to - which means somewhere along the route.

 

[RetroCrowe]

Can't XC say that the delay didn't prevent the OP from getting to their destination on time, seeing as they were already there?
Surely the OP has to choose a "destination" that they were actually delayed in getting to - which means somewhere along the route.

This is where the confusion comes in because I suppose it could be argued that Leicester is a destination that I was delayed in reaching, and this delay then spilled over onto my return journey? As far as I'm aware, there's no minimum amount of time you have to spend in a station for it to be a valid "destination".

It's a strange grey area because I feel like I'm pretty much 'cheating the system' by claiming delay repay for this despite the fact that I did face a genuine delay to my journey that should theoretically be covered by delay repay.

Either way, the course of action I decided to take was to email XC Customer Support, explain the situation and ask what, if any, delay repay compensation I would be entitled to. The delay to my journey ended up being two hours in total, as a delay to the Nottingham - Leicester service made me miss my connection at Leicester, and I suspect XC may at least partially defer this to EMR on this basis, if they even consider it in the first place.

If they try to argue against it, I'd say that's definitely fair enough and I frankly don't think it's worth the faff of chasing after them for what feels like such a loophole, I just thought it was worth a shot and was wondering what the validity of such a claim would be.

 

[Mainline421]

I don't think that meets the dictionary definition of a journey, and at any rate the second they weren't on the train in question they were already in Crewe so anything beyond that would be a voluntary delay

 

[sot]

Can you arbitrarily enter the immediate station after the crew at the start or before Crewe at the end and submit tickets? Imagine it would work in the form. Will probably end up being rejected on the automated but will at least work for inputting.

Such as Crewe to Stafford with all your changes and tickets?

 

[BRX]

I suppose it could be argued that Leicester is a destination that I was delayed in reaching, and this delay then spilled over onto my return journey? As far as I'm aware, there's no minimum amount of time you have to spend in a station for it to be a valid "destination".

Kind of raises the question, if you make a return journey where you plan to spend say 3 hours at your destination, and you are delayed by 1hr on your outward journey, should you be allowed to make your return journey 1hr later than your tickets if they are fixed-train ones? The current system says no. The problem does not exist with flexible tickets but we are increasingly pushed away from them.

 

[crosscity]

How much did you pay for all of the tickets? I'd be thinking what is a reasonable cost for half-a-day track bashing? If you are a railway enthusiast, is it morally acceptable not to pay something for the journey? Even though you were delayed, you got some satisfaction from doing the journey.

I'd probably think of applying for delay repay from Crewe to Sheffield or maybe Leicester as suitable compensation.

 

[RetroCrowe]

How much did you pay for all of the tickets? I'd be thinking what is a reasonable cost for half-a-day track bashing? If you are a railway enthusiast, is it morally acceptable not to pay something for the journey? Even though you were delayed, you got some satisfaction from doing the journey.

I'd probably think of applying for delay repay from Crewe to Sheffield or maybe Leicester as suitable compensation.

I frankly didn't expect this query to turn into an ethical debate but it's 100% a valid point and one that probably explains why internally I felt apprehensive to even put a claim through in the first place. I believe the total cost of the tickets was just over £50.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Practically speaking, I would expect that DR systems aren't designed to cope with this sort of case, because the overwhelming use of the passenger railway is to get from A to B. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the DR rules didn't cope with it either.

So, as I think OP has done, the only way to cope with the matter is by going for human intervention. And it will come down to a value judgement by the intervening human as to what is a fair resolution within the spirit of the rules.

If I were that human (which I am not) I would be asking
- what delay was there to the OP on their finally leaving the railway (i.e. when they got back to Crewe) and
- whether the OP took every reasonable step to mitigate the delay (did they shorten their lunch break and so on)

 

[RetroCrowe]

If I were that human (which I am not) I would be asking
- what delay was there to the OP on their finally leaving the railway (i.e. when they got back to Crewe) and
- whether the OP took every reasonable step to mitigate the delay (did they shorten their lunch break and so on)

My arrival back into Crewe was two hours later than scheduled, and I would argue that I did indeed take every reasonable step to mitigate the delay because at every station I changed trains at, I took the first available train to the next station on my itinerary. I brought both of these points up in my email to XC customer support, so now it's just up to said human on the other end whether they think this would qualify for DR.

 

[JGurney]

If you are a railway enthusiast, is it morally acceptable not to pay something for the journey? Even though you were delayed, you got some satisfaction from doing the journey.

The idea that being a railway enthusiast makes someone less eligible for delay repay that any other passenger does not seem to make much sense.

What if a tourist with no interest in railways as such made a similar round trip journey in order to see the scenery along the way (e.g. going Carlisle > Leeds > Newcastle > Carlisle)?

I suppose if someone with insider knowledge used that to book and make a journey which they knew would be delayed, in order to get a free journey, that would be morally dubious.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I suppose if someone with insider knowledge used that to book and make a journey which they knew would be delayed, in order to get a free journey, that would be morally dubious.

Weren't a number of the tickets that the OP had purchased for the trip not Advance Singles (Booked Train Only) with set itineraries?

 

[BazingaTribe]

The idea that being a railway enthusiast makes someone less eligible for delay repay that any other passenger does not seem to make much sense.

What if a tourist with no interest in railways as such made a similar round trip journey in order to see the scenery along the way (e.g. going Carlisle > Leeds > Newcastle > Carlisle)?

I suppose if someone with insider knowledge used that to book and make a journey which they knew would be delayed, in order to get a free journey, that would be morally dubious.

I've done that and didn't care when I arrived and probably wouldn't have claimed if it had been delayed because I was in no particular hurry. Personally, I wouldn't really care. The time it made a difference I was early enough to hop on the late-running previous service so I didn't miss the lecture I was attending in Oxford and it didn't throw all my plans to stay over with my aunt out of whack. Then I would have claimed some sort of compensation or refund because I would simply not have gone.

However, it's probably an individual judgement case. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable claiming, but that threshold is lower for other people. It's a point which is going to be different for different people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose if someone with insider knowledge used that to book and make a journey which they knew would be delayed, in order to get a free journey, that would be morally dubious.

I don't think that's specific for a circular journey, though. There are certainly some linear journeys I know of where if you book them you are near enough guaranteed at least a half hour claim, almost to the point that it's worth gambling on a First Anytime Single. I do use one of them reasonably often because it's fairly convenient (not to get DR) and would rather the connection actually made once in a while to be honest as it's a late evening one and I just want to get to bed!

I think with this sort of journey I'd probably have a "destination" half way round in mind (particularly if doing it with a return ticket) and would claim DR for the halves as appropriate. But nothing seems to say the original poster can't claim for the whole thing.

 

[saismee]

I think OP should claim DR on this as they were delayed in their journey. Just because the reason for the journey was to ride the trains, it doesn't mean the journey is ineligible because they still got to ride trains. Maybe they wanted to do other things when they arrived back to Crewe. On top of this, travelling on an Advance on the wrong train due to a missed connection can be a bit stressful, even if it's perfectly valid.

It's still a journey even if the start and end location are the same. It's not quite the same as claiming a return trip as one journey, which would be obviously fraudulent.

 

[sot]

Does it let you out start and end as the same station?

 

[RetroCrowe]

Does it let you out start and end as the same station?

It doesn't, which I already knew would be the case before I even submitted my claim. I could maybe have submitted it as a [Crewe - Leicester via Sheffield] journey and [Leicester - Crewe via Nuneaton] journey as two separate claims, but I imagine that would be a faff as well because the 'return' journey was only delayed because of a delay carried across from the 'outbound' journey, which I can't imagine the website is designed to handle because for 99% of journeys, people will stay in their destination for long enough that a delay on the outbound leg won't carry over to their return journey.

 

[sot]

If it were me I'd put Crewe to Stafford with all the vias and tickets and if questioned say it wouldn't let me put it crewe to Crewe. But this is not valid for the last ticket being an advance... Grrrr

What's the next stop after Crewe on the outbound, Wilmslow? Could that be used for the origin or does that break the delay due to extra trains between there and Stockport?

Some toc automated systems will accept these claims with no bother. I once entered a loophole ticket into AWC online DR system and it paid with no issue, even had the fun email from AWC of sorry about your 2hr delay between Paddington and kings cross.

 

[yorkie]

Morning all,

This morning, I was planning to do a big track bash using multiple advance singles and split tickets to form a big circular journey out of Crewe. However, the very first train I was planning to take has now been cancelled, which seems to have caused a big butterfly effect that will likely result in my return to Crewe being an hour later than planned. My question is, how will delay repay be calculated here? My journey consists of a total of five tickets, and it essential starts and ends at the same station, so I'm not sure if I'll even be eligible in the first place. The specifics of what tickets I've bought are down below:

- Crewe - Stockport Anytime Day Single (planned to take the 8:27 XC service, but this has been cancelled).

- Stockport - Leicester (split into a Stockport - Sheffield Advance Single and a Sheffield - Leicester Advance Single - I had planned to take the 8:55 from Stockport to Nottingham and the 11:18 from Nottingham to Leicester, but this has now been pushed back an hour because unless the 8:55 is delayed, I can no longer make my connection at Stockport).

- Leicester - Crewe (split into a Leicester - Hinckley Advance Single and a Hinckley - Crewe Advance Single - I had planned to take the 11:18 Leicester to Nuneaton and change onto the 11:54 Nuneaton - Crewe, but this is again likely to be an hour later).

All connections were within the permitted minimum connection times. On paper, I should be entitled to delay repay from XC, but I've never really thought about how delay repay will work on a circular journey with no single "end point"/destination other than the starting station, so any advice would be appreciated.

When people are seeking advice regarding itineraries, delay claims, etc, it is a good idea to list the planned itinerary in list format. After the journey, the actual journey times can be listed in the same format, with notes regarding which trains were delayed/cancelled. Detailing the ticket(s) used is also helpful.

A good example is how @rhizomergence posted their request, as quoted below:

Hey, I travelled yesterday on a journey involving a somewhat strange collection of tickets, and I’m wondering what my delay repay entitlements are.

Journey from Deal to Cambridge
Intended itinerary:
19:26 Deal to St. Pancras arriving 20:54
21:39 King’s Cross to Cambridge arriving 22:31

Actual itinerary:
19:26 service was delayed, arriving at St. Pancras at 21:34
22:09 King’s Cross to Cambridge, actual arrival 23:07

Tickets used to complete journey:
Super off peak day travelcard, Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 (return portion)
Super off peak day return, London Terminals to Dover Priory any permitted (return portion)
Off peak day return, Deal to Dover Priory (outbound portion)

This will help us to help you; thanks

In future, when making a circular journey, it may be preferable to build in a break of at least 1-2 hours at one of the furthest points on your journey, and nominate such a location as your destination.