First ETCS train operates on the East Coast Mainline

[rmHawk765]

A member stated on a thread some while ago that apparently, ETCS can permit a comparable number of additional paths over the bottleneck as 4-tracking on conventional signalling would.

I was actually considering this last night, how ETCS could offer very short headways and eliminate a fair bit of the problem. It would be great to see some actually data on how many paths it would be able to create though.

 

[Bald Rick]

ETCS no-signals would (will) remove the signalling constraints on linespeed. The track would still need fettling for high speeds

And the OLE and various other things of course.

A member stated on a thread some while ago that apparently, ETCS can permit a comparable number of additional paths over the bottleneck as 4-tracking on conventional signalling would.

That is only kind of the case. The number of additional paths available on the ECML if the viaduct was doubled, but nothing else doen, would be none.

 

[najaB]

That is only kind of the case. The number of additional paths available on the ECML if the viaduct was doubled, but nothing else doen, would be none.

I presume that's because it would just transfer the bottleneck further along the line?

 

[Bald Rick]

I presume that's because it would just transfer the bottleneck further along the line?

It’s because it’s not the most constraining bottleneck.

 

[rmHawk765]

It’s because it’s not the most constraining bottleneck.

Between London and Peterborough, what is?

 

[Belperpete]

I was actually considering this last night, how ETCS could offer very short headways and eliminate a fair bit of the problem. It would be great to see some actually data on how many paths it would be able to create though.

I suspect that the bottlenecks would then become the 4 to 2 track and v.v. junctions.

 

[gravitystorm]

Great Northern have released another video about ETCS on the East Coast Mainline:

I'm glad to see progress.

I'm also very interested in what kind of things they are having to test, in order to complete their safety case. For example, they highlight "two trains running" at one point, but that's something we all know ETCS and class 717s can manage, on a daily basis. So is this level of testing going to be required for every ~20km section of ETCS? Or is this a one-time thing - a new software baseline, a new ROC, something else - that makes this first bit different from the next stages?

If there's anywhere that has more in-depth information (like a PWI video or similar), or more info on what sort of items they've encountered during proving that haven't cropped up elsewhere, then I'm intested to learn more.

 

[bahnause]

I'm also very interested in what kind of things they are having to test, in order to complete their safety case. For example, they highlight "two trains running" at one point, but that's something we all know ETCS and class 717s can manage, on a daily basis. So is this level of testing going to be required for every ~20km section of ETCS? Or is this a one-time thing - a new software baseline, a new ROC, something else - that makes this first bit different from the next stages?

It is presumably about testing the interaction of various components with one another. The ETCS specifications are interpreted very differently by manufacturers. As long as only one OBU (On‑Board Units) manufacturer is paired with a line supplied by a single RBC (Radio Block Center) manufacturer, this is relatively easy to handle. However, once OBUs from different manufacturers, with different software versions or even different baselines, are operating on lines with RBCs from different manufacturers, the European dream can quickly turn into a nightmare requiring countless test runs—especially if there have already been situations in which an RBC issued Movement Authorities to the wrong train…

 

[zwk500]

If there's anywhere that has more in-depth information (like a PWI video or similar), or more info on what sort of items they've encountered during proving that haven't cropped up elsewhere, then I'm intested to learn more.

In Network Rail's 'Information for Operators' pages there is a vast amount of paperwork to browse through about ETCS under 'System Requirements for interoperability' or something similar.
I would post a link but I need to be on a laptop to be able to navigate through to the appropriate page, it seems.

However the NR documentation is very technical and broken down into lots of individual papers so probably not a good starting point.

As long as only one OBU (On‑Board Units) manufacturer is paired with a line supplied by a single RBC (Radio Block Center) manufacturer, this is relatively easy to handle. However, once OBUs from different manufacturers, with different software versions or even different baselines, are operating on lines with RBCs from different manufacturers, the European dream can quickly turn into a nightmare

This was, of course, the very situation that ETCS was envisaged to prevent. Ah well, the thought was there...

 

[absolutelymilk]

Driver’s Reps have been advised the plan for rollout of ETCS for GTR Drivers between Hitchin and Welwyn is July 26 for 717s and October 26 for 700s. No further details at this time or any reason why there are different dates.

I presume that is for drivers to start training (as opposed to starting to use it on passenger services)?

 

[St. Paddy]

I presume that is for drivers to start training (as opposed to starting to use it on passenger services)?

All 717 trained Drivers are already competent on ETCS on the NCL and will need a small further briefing on things like sidings mode for Welwyn CS and other locations. Other than that, it should be ready for passenger use from day 1. 700s require a software update which was tested a couple of nights ago through the Thameslink core and then further Driver training.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Ah great! So we should see 717s using ETCS in passenger service in three months!

 

[rmHawk765]

Ah great! So we should see 717s using ETCS in passenger service in three months!

They already use it in the NCL.

I may be wrong, but isn't the section going live in three months Welwyn-Hitchin? If so, 717s will only use it for the very small section between Langley Jn and Stevenage (unless it also partly goes live on the Hertford Loop as I believe a small section of it past Hertford North had ETCS installed a while ago for testing).

 

[Failed Unit]

They already use it in the NCL.

I may be wrong, but isn't the section going live in three months Welwyn-Hitchin? If so, 717s will only use it for the very small section between Langley Jn and Stevenage (unless it also partly goes live on the Hertford Loop as I believe a small section of it past Hertford North had ETCS installed a while ago for testing).

You are correct, I don’t think any 717s are scheduled between WGC and Stevenage, A few late night services go between Stevenage and Hitchin (I think onwards to Letchworth)

You will see in disruption Stevenage - Moorgate services diverted via WGC.However I don’t know if such an incident happens if they will use ETCS,

WGC - Welwyn Garden City

 

[zwk500]

717002 Appears to be doing some test runs between Welwyn GC and Potters Bar tonight. There's a signalling exclusion zone listed in the Engineering Access Statement for test trains overnight this week, and 717002 worked to Welwyn as 5Q98, which has now moved onto the Up fast.

I may be wrong, but isn't the section going live in three months Welwyn-Hitchin? If so, 717s will only use it for the very small section between Langley Jn and Stevenage

The section going live is inclusive of Welwyn Garden City, so wouldn't 717s running Moorgate-Welwyn GC services (half-hourly off peak, quarter-hourly in the peak) use ETCS for that short section as well as Stevenage?

 

[rmHawk765]

The section going live is inclusive of Welwyn Garden City, so wouldn't 717s running Moorgate-Welwyn GC services (half-hourly off peak, quarter-hourly in the peak) use ETCS for that short section as well as Stevenage?

Sorry, forgot that exists

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==

A few late night services go between Stevenage and Hitchin (I think onwards to Letchworth)

Correct, a few late evening servcies stable at Letchworth. In fact Moorgate-Letchworth was a longstanding pattern before Stevenage P5 was built.

 

[MichaelDono]

I understand the Thameslink core is getting an update to Baseline 3.6.0 from 3.3.0 - is this required for the sake of consistency for drivers, or is there perhaps some complexity running trains fitted with a newer baseline on infrastructure using an older baseline, which is desirable to avoid?

 

[zwk500]

The Great Northern Youtube channel have posted a video summarising the testing earlier this month:

Their big highlight was testing 6 trains in the area at once, but also included transitioning in and out of ETCS, and having trains following each other on the same line.
Interesting how much of this testing is being celebrated as absolutely ground-breaking but I thought Thameslink and Moorgate have that volume of trains in the ETCS area or more in peak times.

One question - is this level of testing required because it's a brand new area or Radio Block Centre/Interlocking, or is this level of testing going to be required for every new ETCS area?

 

[rmHawk765]

Interesting how much of this testing is being celebrated as absolutely ground-breaking but I thought Thameslink and Moorgate have that volume of trains in the ETCS area or more in peak times.

20tph through the TL core at peak and 10tph to Moorgate at peak (mind you, that was 12 before ETCS!). Not all drivers are trained on ETCS for the TL core yet as I understand it, but it's surely enough to say there's way more than '6 trains in the area' using ETCS in the core.

The reason why mainline sections are different is because it isn't just a straight-ish two-tracked through line which only one type of stock traverses. There's lots of differences regarding the track itself including points, sidings, level crossings etc, and the performance of each train, as ETCS of course needs to calculate braking curves based on this.

 

[gravitystorm]

Interesting how much of this testing is being celebrated as absolutely ground-breaking but I thought Thameslink and Moorgate have that volume of trains in the ETCS area or more in peak times.

I'm also getting frustrated by these kind of statements. I'm sure they are doing something genuinely new, but it's not clear what that is. "More than 2 trains and 2 trains following each other" isn't new. There's been various other unhelpful claims from EDCP, like the "first signals-away ETCS deployment" for the earlier Northern City stage, that had to be doubly-caveated with both "in the UK" and also "mainline" - because the Cambrian Line was ETCS L2 signals-away 15+ years ago and somehow doesn't count.

I suspect that the key point in this particular video is that it was multi-RBC handover that was the milestone here, but even then it's not clear to me that's actually what happened. He describes "taking a train from one ETCS area into another" but perhaps that was ETCS -> NTC -> ETCS (NTC between Finsbury Park and Welwyn) rather than ETCS -> ETCS with a direct RBC handover. Who knows? I'd be interested in the details.

Rail Engineer has published an article on ECDP updates, available at https://www.railengineer.co.uk/an-update-on-the-east-coast-digital-programme-ecdp/ . The first half of the article covers well-trodden ground, but the second half contains some interesting tidbits. It discusses a possession in February to reprogram balises related to "shunt mode", mixed-fleet running on a new RBC software version, and something about TSRs that's not clear to me (shorter distance, or shorter duration?). They also mention July for the first in-service trains using ETCS between Welwyn and Hitchin. Fingers crossed for that.

The article states that the project "is currently undergoing a rebaselining", which is never good news, and in the editorial at https://www.railengineer.co.uk/lessons-from-ireland-scotland-and-wales/ they say that EDCP is now "two years behind its original programme".

 

[najaB]

that had to be doubly-caveated with both "in the UK" and also "mainline" - because the Cambrian Line was ETCS L2 signals-away 15+ years ago and somehow doesn't count.

Perhaps because the signals actually disappeared years earlier with RETB?

 

[zwk500]

The article states that the project "is currently undergoing a rebaselining", which is never good news, and in the editorial at https://www.railengineer.co.uk/lessons-from-ireland-scotland-and-wales/ they say that EDCP is now "two years behind its original programme".

Well the Enhancements delivery Plan states the original date for Welwyn-Hitchin go-live on Overlay was July 2025, and the go-live for Signals-Away was April 2027.
The Moorgate section was completed in May 2025, 11 months behind the originally agreed Jun 2024 date.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/CP7-Enhancements-Delivery-Plan-Mar-2026-Update.pdf

Given both the overlay and Signals-Away dates on Tranche 2 are 'Subject to Change Control' in the EDP, I'm not sure I believe that Tranche 4 (no signals from King's Cross to south of Peterborough and overlay to Stoke Tunnel) is 'On Target' for October 2030.
However, the first deployment on the Main Line will necessarily be tackling a lot of things that subsequent deployments won't (e.g. much of the fleet will already be fitted), and there'll be a lot more design, implementation, and operational experience with ETCS across all parties, so maybe they can recover the schedule.

 

[Krokodil]

Perhaps because the signals actually disappeared years earlier with RETB?

Not all of them. Conventional signals remained around Machynlleth/Dovey Junction under RETB.

 

[zwk500]

Great Northern have published a slightly longer than normal video showcasing the DB/GTR collaboration, latest testing, and some cab ride footage of the NCL:

And a Post on LinkedIn mentions 3 RailAdventure Class 43s have now been fitted, with the process down to 8 weeks. A 4th RA Class 43 is currently being fitted, then the LSL "Midland Pullman" cars are apparently next. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ecdp...b&rcm=ACoAAB5MSmMBcdtUUUwiyXwH8GF2JidYYy21TBw

 

[gravitystorm]

Great Northern have published a slightly longer than normal video showcasing the DB/GTR collaboration, latest testing, and some cab ride footage of the NCL

I think most of that is previously published videos spliced together, some of them getting a bit old now (e.g. NCL with signals still in place, and 2023 dates showing on the DMI in some shots). Hopefully they'll keep posting new videos about their work in 2026!

 

[zwk500]

I think most of that is previously published videos spliced together, some of them getting a bit old now (e.g. NCL with signals still in place, and 2023 dates showing on the DMI in some shots). Hopefully they'll keep posting new videos about their work in 2026!

Yeah I think some of the collaboration and testing footage is new but most of it is reposted, buf thought it was worth highlighting anyway

 

[Kentish RYS]

To resurrect a slightly dead thread, is there anything public (either press release or whatever happens when contracts are let) on what the next stages is after Welwyn to Hitchin?

 

[zwk500]

To resurrect a slightly dead thread, is there anything public (either press release or whatever happens when contracts are let) on what the next stages is after Welwyn to Hitchin?

The Engineering Access Statement references the next phase as Biggleswade to Fletton. However, this rail engineer article suggests that the exact phasing could yet change: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/an-update-on-the-east-coast-digital-programme-ecdp/

Once services over Welwyn to Hitchin have fully migrated to ETCS, the next stage will involve going directly to a no signals railway on iterative sections.

Initial work was focused on Biggleswade to Fletton but various options are actively being evaluated, with current asset condition being a key consideration. Signals Away sections are expected to be introduced in phases during CP8.

 

[St. Paddy]

Hitchin to Welwyn ETCS now planned to go live after the final tests over the August bank holiday weekend

 

[bramling]

Sorry, forgot that exists

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==


Correct, a few late evening servcies stable at Letchworth. In fact Moorgate-Letchworth was a longstanding pattern before Stevenage P5 was built.

Three 717s stable at Letchworth EMU Sidings. In the morning they run ECS to Stevenage, in the evening they run in service all the way (which was a fairly recent change, the original May 18 timetable had them run ECS from Stevenage).

There’s a fourth 717 that reaches Letchworth, the morning staff train from King’s Cross, and this *does* run via Knebworth but not in service. It reverses via Letchworth reception roads, runs ECS to Stevenage, and then forms a Moorgate via Hertford service. Since May 18 this has been the only regular 313/717 service between Welwyn and Stevenage.