First ETCS train operates on the East Coast Mainline

[Failed Unit]

Interesting, how many 717s use this section in normal service?

 

[zwk500]

Interesting, how many 717s use this section in normal service?

2tph Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City off-peak, with more in the peaks.

 

[Failed Unit]

2tph Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City off-peak, with more in the peaks.

The post was only mentioning Welwyn Garden City - Hitchin. I don't think any 717s are actually scheduled to use this. May of course have some Empties and diversions when the Hertford loop is not avialable. If they are doing. Of course if they are doing all the way from London - Hitchin, it will be a lot more useful.

 

[St. Paddy]

The post was only mentioning Welwyn Garden City - Hitchin. I don't think any 717s are actually scheduled to use this. May of course have some Empties and diversions when the Hertford loop is not avialable. If they are doing. Of course if they are doing all the way from London - Hitchin, it will be a lot more useful.

Although it’s described as Welwyn-Hitchin, it actually starts around a mile south of Welwyn and runs almost to Arlesey and half way to Letchworth. Also, a tiny bit of the end of the Hertford loop so all Welwyn and Stevenage terminators will use it plus anything heading to/from Letchworth sidings

 

[Failed Unit]

Thank you for the clarification, more useful to the traincrew.

 

[MarkyT]

I recall operating notices often used the words 'inclusive' and 'exclusive' to help define limits of signalling work. So this would be Welwyn GC (inclusive) to Hitchin (inclusive) to convey to staff that the changes include the station/junction areas at both. 'Exclusive' would mean the work stops short of the location.

 

[zwk500]

Are there any updates on the ECDP after last weekend's closures?

 

[St. Paddy]

Are there any updates on the ECDP after last weekend's closures?

Last weekend and this weekend were purely for engineering work, no test trains ran. I believe the rest of the weekend/Sunday closures this month and in March are for ECDP.

 

[Edvid]

More closures for Welwyn GC - Hitchin tasks pencilled in for late 29 - early 31 August and 14-15 / 28-29 November, per the ECDP site.

 

[ChilliSauce]

As a complete outsider and ignoramus, with only gut instincts to go on, I always felt that the signalling centres built in the 1970s had areas of coverage that were "about the right size" and that it was a mistake to seek much further enlargement or centralisation.

One day you just know it's going to happen, fire alarm sounds in a ROC. So "All Signals On" and "All Signallers Out" standing about in the Car Park

Nothing moving from Paddington to Penzance .. Or Kings Cross to Newcastle ...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2026 ==

For example, the speed profile for Heathrow services turning left at Airport Jct off the Down Main will show the reduction in linespeed from 110mph (the maximum unit speed for 387s, even though linespeed is 125) to 75mph, as 75 is the speed onto the Heathrow branch. If the planning area shows a speed profile that remains at 110, then the route is set to continue on the Down Main.

I Think it's fair to say with Speed Signalling compared to Route Signalling the driver isn't really to bothered where he is going to be routed, as the signalling system will reduce the train speed for the route that has been set.

Of course Speed signalling is nothing New .. Switzerland is Speed signalled .. on both system "L" and "N" all of which predates ETCS2

 

[zwk500]

One day you just know it's going to happen, fire alarm sounds in a ROC. So "All Signals On" and "All Signallers Out" standing about in the Car Park

Nothing moving from Paddington to Penzance .. Or Kings Cross to Newcastle ...

Wasn't there a fire alarm at EMCC in Derby that caused a fair whack of disruption? May even have caused the transport sec of the time to make statements about London commuters being told their trains were delayed due to an incident in York, but I can't find any articles on a quick google.

I Think it's fair to say with Speed Signalling compared to Route Signalling the driver isn't really to bothered where he is going to be routed, as the signalling system will reduce the train speed for the route that has been set.

Routing still has other important reasons to be indicated, such as booked station calls being routed on non-platform lines, electrification and Gauge Clearance. IIRC Moorgate does include a description of which platform they are being routed into, but it's not a default feature of ETCS.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Interesting, how many 717s use this section in normal service?

A rather interesting article in this Month's IRSE comic .. A train on ETCS2 (only) arrived Moorgate and then it was discovered the data radio (for Level 2) was defective .. I assume when the driver changed ends .. So with no ETCS2 setup possible the train was effectively stuck blocking 1 of the platforms at Moorgate until a fiiter could attend and either repair or swoop out the faulty data radio

So what happened next ? Well it transpires the GSM-R on the NCL has 1 carrier on the up tunnel and 1 on the down .. And quite quickly there was a queue of trains from Drayton Park towards Moorgate . Sufficient that every Channel on the GSM-R carrier was communicating with a trains data radio ...leaving no channel for Signaller to Driver communication ..

So clearly the system is using old "Circuit switched" technology. Rather than the GPRS on the GSM-R ..despite the test line at Hertford North having been developed for ETCS2 over GPRS testing.

1 driver ...must of been old school clipped the cab handset onto the tunnel communication wires and contacted the signaller in that way .. Full marks to him .. except during that exercise managed to trip the traction current ..

Intresting times ahead I think with ETCS2 on ECML

 

[zwk500]

So clearly the system is using old "Circuit switched" technology. Rather than the GPRS on the GSM-R ..despite the test line at Hertford North having been developed for ETCS2 over GPRS testing.

NR reported testing GPRS on the main line in June 2025, so any bets on when we'll see it actually rolled out? https://www.networkrailmediacentre....s-made-on-gbp-1-4bn-digital-signalling-scheme

 

[notverydeep]

1 driver ...must of been old school clipped the cab handset onto the tunnel communication wires and contacted the signaller in that way .. Full marks to him .. except during that exercise managed to trip the traction current ..

This was to be expected? As I understand, any operation of the Tunnel Telephone should automatically switch the traction current off and the tunnel lights on.

 

[St. Paddy]

This was to be expected? As I understand, any operation of the Tunnel Telephone should automatically switch the traction current off and the tunnel lights on.

Not quite true. The handset has 2 yellow buttons for calling the signaller and 1 red one which requires pressing for 5 seconds to turn off the traction current. Alternatively, short circuiting the tunnel wires by squeezing them together will do the same. Sounds like user error to me.

 

[notverydeep]

Not quite true. The handset has 2 yellow buttons for calling the signaller and 1 red one which requires pressing for 5 seconds to turn off the traction current. Alternatively, short circuiting the tunnel wires by squeezing them together will do the same. Sounds like user error to me.

Thanks for that clarification - every day is a school day as they say! I was taken through how it works more than 20 years ago and my understanding was clearly incomplete...

 

[Strat-tastic]

Alternatively, short circuiting the tunnel wires by squeezing them together will do the same.

I'm sure there's a safe way to achieve this, but I can't imagine what it is!

 

[MarkyT]

I'm sure there's a safe way to achieve this, but I can't imagine what it is!

If you're referring to electrical safety I think it's a fairly low standing voltage on the bare wires. You pinch them together. If you were worried you could wear a glove I suppose.

 

[St. Paddy]

If you're referring to electrical safety I think it's a fairly low standing voltage on the bare wires. You pinch them together. If you were worried you could wear a glove I suppose.

Indeed, quite safe. More danger from the dust on the wire. There’s also a mini short circuit bar on the unit to short circuit the wires.

 

[Strat-tastic]

So not OHLE then, phew! Sorry, my knowledge of 'tunnel wires' is not very much; not heard of them before. What do they do?

 

[najaB]

So not OHLE then, phew! Sorry, my knowledge of 'tunnel wires' is not very much; not heard of them before.

Yeah. Shorting those by hand would be... interesting (if only very briefly!)

hat do they do?

If it's like the ones on the Underground they are used for communication. They're the two wires of a telephone circuit, the driver can clip portable handset directly to the wires in order to speak with the signaller or, as noted above, short across them for several seconds to trigger a traction current shutdown.

 

[Strat-tastic]

Yeah. Shorting those by hand would be... interesting (if only very briefly!)

If it's like the ones on the Underground they are used for communication. They're the two wires of a telephone circuit, the driver can clip portable handset directly to the wires in order to speak with the signaller or, as noted above, short across them for several seconds to trigger a traction current shutdown.

Thanks

 

[saismee]

Not quite true. The handset has 2 yellow buttons for calling the signaller and 1 red one which requires pressing for 5 seconds to turn off the traction current. Alternatively, short circuiting the tunnel wires by squeezing them together will do the same. Sounds like user error to me.

Not sure how these clips look but they probably just bridged the two wires by mistake while attaching. I can see how it would be possible if they look anything like jumper cables.

 

[St. Paddy]

Not sure how these clips look but they probably just bridged the two wires by mistake while attaching. I can see how it would be possible if they look anything like jumper cables.

Crocodile clips

 

[Steve Harris]

Not sure how these clips look but they probably just bridged the two wires by mistake while attaching. I can see how it would be possible if they look anything like jumper cables.

See

the relevant info starts at 12.50 mark.

 

[AM9]

yes

Do Thameslink drivers that have not completed ETCS training use ATO when in the core?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Do Thameslink drivers that have not completed ETCS training use ATO when in the core?

I don't know for certain, but I doubt it, given the ATO runs on the ETCS.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do Thameslink drivers that have not completed ETCS training use ATO when in the core?

No. You must have ETCS competence to use the ATO.

Once you have ETCS competence, you must use it in the core.

 

[rmHawk765]

Given the restrictive 3-aspect signalling and 70-80mph linespeed, having 90-100mph on the slow lines, especially north of Stevenage

Apologies for going a bit off topic, but I do think that a 90-100mph upgrade for the slows is long overdue to be honest, even south of Stevenage, where it could provide noticeable time gains for services like the Letchworth/Cambridge stoppers. The only real issue with it I can think of is the 85mph 717s, but I think the possible 15mph gap is fine given there's a 25mph differential between 700s/387s/379s and everything else on the (rather packed) fasts.

That said, a project like this is fairly big, and should tie into a larger scale ECML improvement program, including things like the all-too-familiar Welwyn Viaduct problem.

 

[zwk500]

That said, a project like this is fairly big, and should tie into a larger scale ECML improvement program, including things like the all-too-familiar Welwyn Viaduct problem.

ETCS no-signals would (will) remove the signalling constraints on linespeed. The track would still need fettling for high speeds.

A member stated on a thread some while ago that apparently, ETCS can permit a comparable number of additional paths over the bottleneck as 4-tracking on conventional signalling would.