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Is Transport for Wales nationalist? Could its operations be redistributed?

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amahy

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Since the Welsh government took over the Wales and Borders franchise, I have noticed that the operation has been getting increasingly more biased towards the "Wales" element, and that the "Borders" element is becoming more and more neglected. Here are a few reasons for my theory.

1. Welsh language provision
I'd like to start this by saying, that there is absolutely zero reason why any train service that is entirely in England should have Welsh train announcements first. On TfW, these services include Crewe to Chester, Crewe to Shrewsbury, and Liverpool to Chester. Yet, some services that do go into Wales, but are ran by other TOCs, have no Welsh announcements at all, such as GWR and Cross Country's services to Cardiff. A good alternative policy could be that, when in Wales, such services have Welsh announcements first, and when in England, such services have English announcements first.

In my opinion, this is an issue for various reasons. Firstly, it could be confusing for none Welsh speakers that don't speak English as their first language. Secondly, some announcements for the next station are at the last minute, so sometimes, the English announcement only plays when the train is pulling into the platform. For someone unfamiliar with the route, this could cause unneccessary panic when getting off the train. A third, very obvious reason, is that most people using TfW's services either speak both English and Welsh, or only English. A tiny minority only speak Welsh.

2. Priority of investment
The biggest upgrades as part of the TfW franchise have all been concentrated in Wales. These projects include South Wales Metro, and the North Wales timetable upgrade. Additionally, in their "Today, Tomorrow, Together" report, published earlier this year, most of their priority projects are in Wales, such as North Wales Metro, and North Wales electrification. Routes outside of Wales seem to be merely an afterthought, with no substantial upgrades to the Marches for decades.

Additionally, the new trains operating outside of Wales, are in my opinion inferior to those inside Wales. The 231s and 756s were more expensive than the 197s, and it really shows. The 231s and 756s have good reliability, and have impressive passenger comfort, considering the short distance routes they operate. Apart from the seats, the 197s are a direct downgrade in almost every way, with inferior reliability, unreliable air-con and toilets, poor ride quality, and harsh interior lighting. The Mk4s are much better for passengers, but are also unreliable, and are ultimately hand-me-down trains, rather than brand new.

3. Politics
I am all in favour of rail nationalisation, and that the railway should be controlled by the government, rather than private business. However, I do not think any services that are substantially outside of Wales should be ran by the Welsh government. The problem with this, is that TfW ran stations/services outside of Wales are placed “in limbo”, without representation by the English government, but the Welsh government have little reason to care, as the operation isn’t in their governing area.

Scotrail has a grand total of 1 station it serves outside Scotland, that being Carlisle. I know that TfW operates so far outside of Wales for historical franchising reasons, but in my opinion, this needs reconsidering, now that TfW is run by the Welsh government. I am also concerned, that said TfW stations/services outside Wales will “miss out” on Great British Railways, when/if that launches.
 
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Bletchleyite

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1. Welsh language provision
I'd like to start this by saying, that there is absolutely zero reason why any train service that is entirely in England should have Welsh train announcements first. On TfW, these services include Crewe to Chester, Crewe to Shrewsbury, and Liverpool to Chester. Yet, some services that do go into Wales, but are ran by other TOCs, have no Welsh announcements at all, such as GWR and Cross Country's services to Cardiff. A good alternative policy could be that, when in Wales, such services have Welsh announcements first, and when in England, such services have English announcements first.

What I would really like to do is to send TfW managers on a trip to Switzerland and get them to copy what happens there. A different chime for each country, and that country's language first, would be a really nice touch.
 

The exile

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What I would really like to do is to send TfW managers on a trip to Switzerland and get them to copy what happens there. A different chime for each country, and that country's language first, would be a really nice touch.
Or Belgium…
 

Bletchleyite

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I did quite like the Class 175 chime, it was almost (but not quite) the first few notes of the Welsh national anthem. Perhaps they could have the actual first few notes of the anthem before Welsh announcements and the first few notes of Jerusalem (say) before the English ones? Some of the German double deck sets did something a bit like that, with the Bundesland anthem (or a tune otherwise related) before the announcements in that Land, with it changing when a border was crossed.
 

6Gman

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A good alternative policy could be that, when in Wales, such services have Welsh announcements first, and when in England, such services have English announcements first.
Wouldn't this cause worse confusion on (e.g.) a journey from Cardiff to Rhyl?

Welsh first to start, then English from Pontrilas, Welsh again from Chirk, English from Pulford, then Welsh again from Saltney.

Phew!

At least with the present arrangement it's consistent.
 

Tetchytyke

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I am all in favour of rail nationalisation, and that the railway should be controlled by the government, rather than private business. However, I do not think any services that are substantially outside of Wales should be ran by the Welsh government.
I know that TfW operates so far outside of Wales for historical franchising reasons, but in my opinion, this needs reconsidering, now that TfW is run by the Welsh government.

A brief look at a map will explain why TfW train services extend outside of Wales. It is impossible to move by rail between the various parts of Wales without passing through England. We can thank Dr Beeching for that.

So you don't want TfW trains to operate outside Wales. Fine. So you run a service Holyhead to Shotton where everyone has to get off and change for a Welsh train to Wrexham. Everyone then has to get off again for a pure English train at Chirk, followed by getting off that English train again at Abergavenny for the last run down to Cardiff on a Welsh train.

Sounds like a bit of a faff to me. But we can't have nice English towns like Leominster and Ludlow only being served by those nasty Welsh trains.

Welsh first to start, then English from Pontrilas, Welsh again from Chirk, English from Pulford, then Welsh again from Saltney.
A Cardiff to Rhyl train crosses the border five times just between Abergavenny and Hereford (well, between Pandy and Pontrilas to be more exact). It then crosses it a further three times later in the journey. Does the emergency announcement have to change each time?

Yes, reductio ad absurdium, but what of Knighton? The station is in England but the town it serves is Welsh. Welsh first or English first? Answers on a postcard.
 

cle

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Since the Welsh government took over the Wales and Borders franchise, I have noticed that the operation has been getting increasingly more biased towards the "Wales" element, and that the "Borders" element is becoming more and more neglected. Here are a few reasons for my theory.

1. Welsh language provision
I'd like to start this by saying, that there is absolutely zero reason why any train service that is entirely in England should have Welsh train announcements first. On TfW, these services include Crewe to Chester, Crewe to Shrewsbury, and Liverpool to Chester. Yet, some services that do go into Wales, but are ran by other TOCs, have no Welsh announcements at all, such as GWR and Cross Country's services to Cardiff. A good alternative policy could be that, when in Wales, such services have Welsh announcements first, and when in England, such services have English announcements first.

In my opinion, this is an issue for various reasons. Firstly, it could be confusing for none Welsh speakers that don't speak English as their first language. Secondly, some announcements for the next station are at the last minute, so sometimes, the English announcement only plays when the train is pulling into the platform. For someone unfamiliar with the route, this could cause unneccessary panic when getting off the train. A third, very obvious reason, is that most people using TfW's services either speak both English and Welsh, or only English. A tiny minority only speak Welsh.

2. Priority of investment
The biggest upgrades as part of the TfW franchise have all been concentrated in Wales. These projects include South Wales Metro, and the North Wales timetable upgrade. Additionally, in their "Today, Tomorrow, Together" report, published earlier this year, most of their priority projects are in Wales, such as North Wales Metro, and North Wales electrification. Routes outside of Wales seem to be merely an afterthought, with no substantial upgrades to the Marches for decades.

Additionally, the new trains operating outside of Wales, are in my opinion inferior to those inside Wales. The 231s and 756s were more expensive than the 197s, and it really shows. The 231s and 756s have good reliability, and have impressive passenger comfort, considering the short distance routes they operate. Apart from the seats, the 197s are a direct downgrade in almost every way, with inferior reliability, unreliable air-con and toilets, poor ride quality, and harsh interior lighting. The Mk4s are much better for passengers, but are also unreliable, and are ultimately hand-me-down trains, rather than brand new.

3. Politics
I am all in favour of rail nationalisation, and that the railway should be controlled by the government, rather than private business. However, I do not think any services that are substantially outside of Wales should be ran by the Welsh government. The problem with this, is that TfW ran stations/services outside of Wales are placed “in limbo”, without representation by the English government, but the Welsh government have little reason to care, as the operation isn’t in their governing area.

Scotrail has a grand total of 1 station it serves outside Scotland, that being Carlisle. I know that TfW operates so far outside of Wales for historical franchising reasons, but in my opinion, this needs reconsidering, now that TfW is run by the Welsh government. I am also concerned, that said TfW stations/services outside Wales will “miss out” on Great British Railways, when/if that launches.
Is this satire?

Wales is tiny, economically, and has quite difficult geography. Scotland has a global economic driver in Edinburgh, and a big (post) industria and commercial l centre in Glasgow.

'England and Wales' is ostensibly one entity. The barest of inclusion and cultural protection for a minority always seems like tyranny to the majority.

Imagine a devolved organization focused on 'a thing' - or a place - then investing and focusing on said place. Per their mandate, lunacy.

And of course the Welsh economy is far more connected and intertwined to the English one, than Scotland. So the railway has to be. Look at a map! North Wales' capitals are practically Chester and Liverpool. Its airport, Manchester. Cardiff is a bigger boy, but the connection to the Bristol area and to London, is very important. And Heathrow is really the principal airport due to the M4.
 

Djgr

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Would Liverpool to Chester (via Halton Curve) have even happened without the Welsh government?
 

The exile

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Yes, reductio ad absurdium, but what of Knighton? The station is in England but the town it serves is Welsh. Welsh first or English first? Answers on a postcard.
Like this you mean - the station being Krzewina Zgorzekecka in Poland - served exclusively by German trains and basically there to give the German town of Ostritz a railway station. The station name is given in Polish and German - all other signs are in Polish and English only.IMG_5560.jpeg
 

eisenach

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I use the trains from Leominster. I rather like the Welsh announcements. I'm slowly learning something new, always a good thing in my book.
 

Trainbike46

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Since the Welsh government took over the Wales and Borders franchise, I have noticed that the operation has been getting increasingly more biased towards the "Wales" element, and that the "Borders" element is becoming more and more neglected. Here are a few reasons for my theory.

1. Welsh language provision
I'd like to start this by saying, that there is absolutely zero reason why any train service that is entirely in England should have Welsh train announcements first. On TfW, these services include Crewe to Chester, Crewe to Shrewsbury, and Liverpool to Chester. Yet, some services that do go into Wales, but are ran by other TOCs, have no Welsh announcements at all, such as GWR and Cross Country's services to Cardiff. A good alternative policy could be that, when in Wales, such services have Welsh announcements first, and when in England, such services have English announcements first.

In my opinion, this is an issue for various reasons. Firstly, it could be confusing for none Welsh speakers that don't speak English as their first language. Secondly, some announcements for the next station are at the last minute, so sometimes, the English announcement only plays when the train is pulling into the platform. For someone unfamiliar with the route, this could cause unneccessary panic when getting off the train. A third, very obvious reason, is that most people using TfW's services either speak both English and Welsh, or only English. A tiny minority only speak Welsh.
I do agree that GWR and XC should also have Welsh announcements on services going into Wales, just like Avanti do. Doing English announcement first when services are in England doesn't sound unreasonable either, but the Welsh being first is hardly a big issue. The key thing to me would be that Welsh announcements are used prominently.
2. Priority of investment
The biggest upgrades as part of the TfW franchise have all been concentrated in Wales. These projects include South Wales Metro, and the North Wales timetable upgrade. Additionally, in their "Today, Tomorrow, Together" report, published earlier this year, most of their priority projects are in Wales, such as North Wales Metro, and North Wales electrification. Routes outside of Wales seem to be merely an afterthought, with no substantial upgrades to the Marches for decades.

Additionally, the new trains operating outside of Wales, are in my opinion inferior to those inside Wales. The 231s and 756s were more expensive than the 197s, and it really shows. The 231s and 756s have good reliability, and have impressive passenger comfort, considering the short distance routes they operate. Apart from the seats, the 197s are a direct downgrade in almost every way, with inferior reliability, unreliable air-con and toilets, poor ride quality, and harsh interior lighting. The Mk4s are much better for passengers, but are also unreliable, and are ultimately hand-me-down trains, rather than brand new.
At least part of the reason for this is the way the system is set up.

With regards to Infrastructure, only the core valley lines are devolved to the Welsh government, so it is entirely sensible for the Welsh government to do infrastructure upgrades there and enable a better service. Outside of Wales the Welsh government (rightly) doesn't have that power. The 756s were ordered together with the Core Valley Lines infrastructure upgrade, so are really only suitable for those lines. The 231s have to be maintained in the same place, so from a practical perspective they have to operate in the same area - which means they can only really be used on services fully in Wales or on Wales-England services. I would have preferred if all new trains were 756s or 755s, but that was likely to expensive. I would also note that most services inside Wales are also ran by 197s, so it is hardly a conspiracy against England.

There have been improvements outside Wales since the Welsh government took over, including the introduction of the (then new) Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn service. All routes have gotten improved rolling stock relative to the (old) trains that ran them before, as noted above.

My understanding TfW is a contractor for the DfT in regards to the routes outside Wales, so some things will still be up to the DfT. I image TfW would happily run more services outside Wales if the DfT was happy to pay the subsidy that would require.
3. Politics
I am all in favour of rail nationalisation, and that the railway should be controlled by the government, rather than private business. However, I do not think any services that are substantially outside of Wales should be ran by the Welsh government. The problem with this, is that TfW ran stations/services outside of Wales are placed “in limbo”, without representation by the English government, but the Welsh government have little reason to care, as the operation isn’t in their governing area.

Scotrail has a grand total of 1 station it serves outside Scotland, that being Carlisle. I know that TfW operates so far outside of Wales for historical franchising reasons, but in my opinion, this needs reconsidering, now that TfW is run by the Welsh government. I am also concerned, that said TfW stations/services outside Wales will “miss out” on Great British Railways, when/if that launches.
The franchise boundary wasn't just drawn randomly though! And TfW is still supposed to be accountable to the DfT (and Westminster government) for the routes outside Wales.

There are very good geographical reasons for TfW to operate services outside Wales. If TfW only operated inside Wales, there would be at least 3 unconnected TfW networks (South Wales, North Wales, Cambrian line). The Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Newport axis really has to be TfW for that reason alone. The others are all either through services from Wales, extra services to increase the frequency on a route served by these through services (in the case of Shrewsbury-Crewe), or there look to be plans to extend them to become such a through service (in the case of Liverpool-Chester, extending through to Wrexham). This only leaves Chester-Crewe, but operationally that is likely better of with TfW as well.

Scotland's geography is very different, which enables its relatively separate rail network.
 

MarkyT

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~40% of the Marches line between Newport and Shrewsbury is in Wales, with the majority of the further border section running north to Chester in England. The largest settlements en route are mostly in England, apart from Wrexham.

I read in the early days of the Cardiff-North Wales service that the Assembly wanted to miss out Chester on the Cardiff-North Wales trains, and looked at various ideas for a chord in the area to avoid crossing into England. The old TOC pointed out Chester is by far the biggest traffic magnet on the entire route, and missing out the city while passing close by just because the station is 2 miles over the border is absurd and could severely compromise the economics of the operation.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect manual announcements to vary the order of languages used depending on which side of the border a train is on. I think there'd be mistakes, and having to think about it would be an unnecessary distraction from other more important elements of the work. Automated announcements, on the other hand, could easily be changed based on geolocation. I think a general commitment to reducing messages and brevity in those that remain would help offset any frustration at hearing the 'wrong' language first.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Would Liverpool to Chester (via Halton Curve) have even happened without the Welsh government?
No. Nor the coming extension to Llandudno.

Chester is a key node for TfW, and hosts the big class 197 fleet. It's 2 miles outside Wales.
Chester station was upgraded by ATW and TfW, the redoubling between Saltney and Rossett is actually mostly in Englnd but funded by Wales.
Resignalling between Shrewsbury and Crewe, and between Connah's Quay and Colwyn Bay, were upgrades of Marches/North Wales infrastructure, as was the increase in line speeds to 90mph, notably between Gobowen and Shrewsbury (in England). .
The saga of the class 230s is being played out on the Wrexham-Bidston line, half of which is in England.
Large amounts of Network Rail money were spent on TfW's English routes (Crewe-Manchester, Halton Curve, Chat Moss and through Telford.
The money for the Halton Curve upgrade was allocated to Liverpool City Region, but sponsored by WG.

There are agreements between DfT and WG about the TfW "English" routes and services, and there will be another when GBR is set up.
ATW/TfW has done at least as well, probably better, on managing it routes in England, than the old DfT franchises (FNW, Central, W&W).
Folk may not much like TfW's new rolling stock, but it is a whole lot better than the cast-offs from the former operators (class 175 excepted).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

~40% of the Marches line between Newport and Shrewsbury is in Wales, with the majority of the further border section running north to Chester in England. The largest settlements en route are mostly in England, apart from Wrexham.
Newport-Shrewsbury is 94 miles (126 on to Crewe, all part of NR's Wales Route), of which 30 miles are actually in Wales. The border is crossed multiple times south of Pontrilas.
Shrewsbury-Chester is 42 miles of which 16 miles (Chirk-Pulford) are in Wales.

Chester PSB (planned to go into Manchester ROC one day) controls Saltney Jn-Wrexham and Saltney Jn-Connah's Quay in Wales.
Conversely, Cardiff ROC controls Shrewsbury-Nantwich in England, and Connah's Quay-Colwyn Bay on the North Wales coast.
 
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Sir Felix Pole

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Cardiff - Manchester is the best performing service, financially, for TfW with steady growth and attractive trains in the form of loco-hauled and 197s. Truncating at Crewe or even Shrewsbury would instantly drive away long-distance passengers and the remaining rump would require yet more subsidy. TfW has also spotted another opportunity outside its fiefdom and has applied to run services to Bristol T.M.

NMBS / SNCB in Belgium manages perfectly well with announcements etc. in Flemish / French depending on location - I don't see why there can't be a similar arrangement for Welsh / English. I would also like to see adherence to the UIC timetable standard of local place names being used throughout - no Amwythig for Shrewsbury, or Cardiff for Caerdydd!
 

Energy

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NMBS / SNCB in Belgium manages perfectly well with announcements etc. in Flemish / French depending on location - I don't see why there can't be a similar arrangement for Welsh / English. I would also like to see adherence to the UIC timetable standard of local place names being used throughout - no Amwythig for Shrewsbury, or Cardiff for Caerdydd!
TfW services tend to cross the border a fair few times, so switching the order of the announcements is likely to be confusing. It's easiest IMO just to use both in the same order throughout the journey.

I'm not particularly fussed on the order, but some TfW announcements can be very long due to the number of stations. There are questions to be asked about whether saying all the stations improves accessibility or diminishes it due to the overwhelming amount of information.
I would have preferred if all new trains were 756s or 755s, but that was likely to expensive.
The fuel range on the Stadlers isn't that far since the tanks are constrained to the space in the powerpack vehicle.
I would also note that most services inside Wales are also ran by 197s, so it is hardly a conspiracy against England.
Indeed, outside of South Wales, it will eventually be 197s and Mk4s.
without representation by the English government, but the Welsh government have little reason to care, as the operation isn’t in their governing area.
Given how the Wales & Border franchise was treated in the past, I'm doubtful the grass would be greener.
 

pr1

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As this is the speculation sub forum I hope that I can "get away" with the flippant suggestion that moving Shropshire into Wales would aid the boundary crossing problem ;)
 

MarkyT

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Newport-Shrewsbury is 94 miles (126 on to Crewe, all part of NR's Wales Route), of which 30 miles are actually in Wales. The border is crossed multiple times south of Pontrilas.
Shrewsbury-Chester is 42 miles of which 16 miles (Chirk-Pulford) are in Wales.
So roughly a third of route mileage is in Wales. Even less than my initial estimate.
Chester PSB (planned to go into Manchester ROC one day) controls Saltney Jn-Wrexham and Saltney Jn-Connah's Quay in Wales.
Conversely, Cardiff ROC controls Shrewsbury-Nantwich in England, and Connah's Quay-Colwyn Bay on the North Wales coast.
The Nantwich line only really makes sense if eventually Shrewsbury goes into Cardiff too, but it's perhaps more logical to manage that area from a West Midlands centre. The Cambrian control can remain self-contained at Machynlleth, and I'd suggest a similar approach on the north coast but with Chester as the north Wales control centre, perhaps building a replacement facility 2 miles to the west at Saltney, just over the border, but still controlling all of what Chester already oversees as well as taking over the whole coast line with its branches.
 

Wolfie

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As this is the speculation sub forum I hope that I can "get away" with the flippant suggestion that moving Shropshire into Wales would aid the boundary crossing problem ;)
As a Salopian born and bred l suspect that you can anticipate my response to that lol.....
 

amahy

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A brief look at a map will explain why TfW train services extend outside of Wales. It is impossible to move by rail between the various parts of Wales without passing through England. We can thank Dr Beeching for that.

So you don't want TfW trains to operate outside Wales. Fine. So you run a service Holyhead to Shotton where everyone has to get off and change for a Welsh train to Wrexham. Everyone then has to get off again for a pure English train at Chirk, followed by getting off that English train again at Abergavenny for the last run down to Cardiff on a Welsh train.

Sounds like a bit of a faff to me. But we can't have nice English towns like Leominster and Ludlow only being served by those nasty Welsh trains.
Is this satire?

Wales is tiny, economically, and has quite difficult geography. Scotland has a global economic driver in Edinburgh, and a big (post) industria and commercial l centre in Glasgow.

'England and Wales' is ostensibly one entity. The barest of inclusion and cultural protection for a minority always seems like tyranny to the majority.

Imagine a devolved organization focused on 'a thing' - or a place - then investing and focusing on said place. Per their mandate, lunacy.

And of course the Welsh economy is far more connected and intertwined to the English one, than Scotland. So the railway has to be. Look at a map! North Wales' capitals are practically Chester and Liverpool. Its airport, Manchester. Cardiff is a bigger boy, but the connection to the Bristol area and to London, is very important. And Heathrow is really the principal airport due to the M4.
The summary of these posts seems to be “England and Wales are one entity”, which I fully agree with. In which case, it shouldn’t be a big issue for TfW to be absorbed into GBR and ran by the UK government, where both English and Welsh towns are represented. Or, at least in theory, they are!
I use the trains from Leominster. I rather like the Welsh announcements. I'm slowly learning something new, always a good thing in my book.
I agree, but such enjoyment should not come at the expense of key information being potentially missed.

It also doesn’t help, that the announcements on 197s are so obnoxiously loud, which makes hearing everything twice even more irritating!
Cardiff - Manchester is the best performing service, financially, for TfW with steady growth and attractive trains in the form of loco-hauled and 197s. Truncating at Crewe or even Shrewsbury would instantly drive away long-distance passengers and the remaining rump would require yet more subsidy. TfW has also spotted another opportunity outside its fiefdom and has applied to run services to Bristol T.M.
This is why I find it bizarre that no investment is made into improving the infrastructure and timetable of the Marches line. I agree that the Mk4s are good, but not the 197s!
 

Wolfie

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The summary of these posts seems to be “England and Wales are one entity”, which I fully agree with. In which case, it shouldn’t be a big issue for TfW to be absorbed into GBR and ran by the UK government, where both English and Welsh towns are represented. Or, at least in theory, they are!

I agree, but such enjoyment should not come at the expense of key information being potentially missed.

It also doesn’t help, that the announcements on 197s are so obnoxiously loud, which makes hearing everything twice even more irritating!

This is why I find it bizarre that no investment is made into improving the infrastructure and timetable of the Marches line. I agree that the Mk4s are good, but not the 197s!
As a Salopian l can't help thinking that views such as yours only benefit Plaid Cymru.
 

MarkyT

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Perhaps we need a special border railway TOC or GBR division to operate the Marches line like GySEV on the Austria - Hungary border! It could be jointly owned by the nations.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Is this satire?
A quick look at the OP's posting history will confirm that it's not. But this is a discussion forum where various opinions should be expected to be found. And the OP does raise some interesting points even if some of them have been done to death here previously.
 

btdrawer

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The summary of these posts seems to be “England and Wales are one entity”, which I fully agree with. In which case, it shouldn’t be a big issue for TfW to be absorbed into GBR and ran by the UK government, where both English and Welsh towns are represented. Or, at least in theory, they are!
Id actually prefer the opposite! Devolve power to the English regions and also have them run their own services. GBR is going to be unusually centralised vs similar-size countries like Germany and France, and it's probably going to lead to a poorer service overall, partly due to information problems (how much can civil servants in Derby know about the rail needs of, eg, Cornwall?) and partly due to accountability problems (the performance of rail in a particular part of the country is never going to mean much on a national scale; local leaders are forced to care more).

(Of course, inter-city and inter-regional services would still need to be run nationally.)
 

35B

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The summary of these posts seems to be “England and Wales are one entity”, which I fully agree with. In which case, it shouldn’t be a big issue for TfW to be absorbed into GBR and ran by the UK government, where both English and Welsh towns are represented. Or, at least in theory, they are!
I'll let you go to Wales and say "England and Wales are one entity". I'll also wish you luck.

More seriously, there is a devolution settlement to Wales and that includes transport. That deserves respect, just as the Scottish or Northern Irish devolution settlements deserve respect.

You then have a railway network that, as has been observed, was not built as "Welsh", and which spans the border. I've no particular problem with a "Wales and Borders" operation - none of the cross-border routes have an alternative natural home. The idea of "Wales & Borders" offers them a unity while, in the context of devolution, aligning them to the political control.

I've no particular problem with that - including some of those reaching across the English border. There are issues (notably language) which are tied up in Welsh politics, and where more respect is due to English speakers - but that is just one facet of Welsh language politics. More generally, the choice of priorities (which includes, contrary to what the OP suggests, some very expensive decisions about the Marches line) seems no worse than some made by DfT, which also appear very random at times.
 

WelshBluebird

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I agree, but such enjoyment should not come at the expense of key information being potentially missed.
If you manage to miss information because it is announced in another language too then maybe you just shouldn't be using public transport.

I've been to many places where another language that I don't understand is played first before English is, and I've been fine. Believe it or not some places have two languages before English too!

If there is an issue with the timing of some announcements then the solution is to change the timings, or shorten announcements (e.g. if you have two stations close together you probably dont nees to announce the full stopping pattern of the service in between them).
 
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NCT

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A quick look at the OP's posting history will confirm that it's not. But this is a discussion forum where various opinions should be expected to be found. And the OP does raise some interesting points even if some of them have been done to death here previously.

And various forms of reactions ...
 

6Gman

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I use the trains from Leominster. I rather like the Welsh announcements. I'm slowly learning something new, always a good thing in my book.
We need a 'like' button on this site. :D

I met a guy running a carwash in Crewe who spoke fluent Serbian and Rumanian, a bit of Russian, some Urdu.

And good English.

And when he drove over toward Wrexham he'd tune in to Radio Cymru on the car radio because he liked the sound of the language!
As this is the speculation sub forum I hope that I can "get away" with the flippant suggestion that moving Shropshire into Wales would aid the boundary crossing problem ;)
Well, the name Crewe is derived from a Welsh root ( cryw = fish trap) so perhaps we could move Cheshire too! 8-)
 
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