SeatSense - Real-Time Occupancy system installed on LNER trains

[ainsworth74]

I noticed a grey box installed above all the seats on the Azuma I'm on this afternoon with the word "Sensative" on the side of the box. A bit of googling took me to this LinkedIn post:

Proud to share the rollout of SeatSense — the world’s first real-time seat occupancy sensing system — now being installed on London North Eastern Railway trains using 3D-printed jigs designed by our R&D team.

As design partners with LNER and in collaboration with Sensative, the Northumbria University research team — Principal Investigator Matteo Conti and Design Research Assistant Dr Hanna Bawab — designed, prototyped, and refined a sensor installation jig in 3 distinctive configurations.

The designed solution enables the fast and accurate deployment of 36,000 SeatSense sensors for standard and first class, maintaining installation time to under 30 seconds per seat.

The critical design and functionality of the jig contribute directly to the transition of Azuma trains towards smarter, data-enabled operations and improved passenger experience.

This milestone is a testament to the expertise of the research team and reflects strong project leadership from Shane McConnor, Commercial Project Manager at #LNER, alongside invaluable hands-on support from the 3D printing team at @Northumbria School of Design, Arts and Creative Industries — through Clive Wright and Callum Lovell — whose expertise helped translate prototypes into deployable tools.

SeatSense Real-Time Occupancy System Installed on LNER Trains | Matteo Conti posted on the topic | LinkedIn

Proud to share the rollout of SeatSense — the world’s first real-time seat occupancy sensing system — now being installed on London North Eastern Railway trains using 3D-printed jigs designed by our R&D team. As design partners with LNER and in collaboration with Sensative, the Northumbria...

www.linkedin.com

An interesting development though I'm not sure there's any passenger facing implications as yet!

Older readers will, of course, recall that this "World First" actually first happened in 2018 on LNER's legacy fleet of trains:

I did use it a few times myself and whilst it wasnt 100% accurate it did a reasonable job and I thought it a shame it was lost when the brand new hi-tech trains didn't include the same functionality as the decades old fleet they were replacing...

Be interesting to see if something comes out for passengers to take advantage of!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I noticed a grey box installed above all the seats on the Azuma I'm on this afternoon with the word "Sensative" on the side of the box. A bit of googling took me to this LinkedIn post:

SeatSense Real-Time Occupancy System Installed on LNER Trains | Matteo Conti posted on the topic | LinkedIn

Proud to share the rollout of SeatSense — the world’s first real-time seat occupancy sensing system — now being installed on London North Eastern Railway trains using 3D-printed jigs designed by our R&D team. As design partners with LNER and in collaboration with Sensative, the Northumbria...

www.linkedin.com

An interesting development though I'm not sure there's any passenger facing implications as yet!

Older readers will, of course, recall that this "World First" actually first happened in 2018 on LNER's legacy fleet of trains:

I did use it a few times myself and whilst it wasnt 100% accurate it did a reasonable job and I thought it a shame it was lost when the brand new hi-tech trains didn't include the same functionality as the decades old fleet they were replacing...

Be interesting to see if something comes out for passengers to take advantage of!

I've read the quotes and am none the wiser.
If I am sat in a seat, go to the toilet, will it assume that seat is now available for someone else to occupy?
Will it be like Cross-Country, reserving a seat from under your backside?

 

[ainsworth74]

I've read the quotes and am none the wiser.
If I am sat in a seat, go to the toilet, will it assume that seat is now available for someone else to occupy?
Will it be like Cross-Country, reserving a seat from under your backside?

I think the 2018 implementation didn't check the occupancy constantly just immediately after station calls (hence the video saying wait five minutes). It also didn't reserve seats it was just a map saying if a seat was free or might be free. Obviously who knows how the 2026 version might work!

Considering LNER support reservations up to 5 minutes before departure it is also possible right now to have a seat reserved out from under you (though the reservation indicators do warn of this).

 

[py_megapixel]

Here is LNER's press release: https://www.lner.co.uk/news/smart-sensors-to-make-finding-a-seat-easier-on-lner-services/

They also mention the following:

A further onboard enhancement designed to make journeys simpler for customers is the removal of the “May be reserved later” messaging on the Azuma trains. Seats and wheelchair spaces will now show either green for “Available”, red for “Reserved”, or amber for when the seat is currently available but reserved later in the journey, helping customers feel more confident when travelling with LNER.

I'm not sure I fully understand what this means. Does it mean that all seats will now show "Available" unless there is an existing reservation for them, and the sensors will upload data to the reservation system so that you won't be able to reserve a seat that someone is already sat in?

 

[Kite159]

No doubt they will use it as an excuse to reduce the number of truly unreserved seats in coach C even further, afterall flexible travel doesn't match their dreams of being an aircraft on rails

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I am sat in a seat, go to the toilet, will it assume that seat is now available for someone else to occupy?

Surely that's the same as if someone decided to just sit there? To keep a seat you'd generally be expected to leave something on it.

Don't Pendolinos also have this? Though I'm yet to see any evidence of it working.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Surely that's the same as if someone decided to just sit there? To keep a seat you'd generally be expected to leave something on it.

Don't Pendolinos also have this? Though I'm yet to see any evidence of it working.

Travelling alone, this is a dichotomy. There's repeated announcements about 'not leaving luggage unattended'.
I've tried keeping my bag with me and leaving a newspaper open at a half-completed cryptic crossword, with a pen on top, when going to the vestibule to make a phone call. That didn't work - someone sat down in the seat (having pushed past me in the vestibule) . And they didn't even solve any more clues. I picked up my newspaper and sat elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Travelling alone, this is a dichotomy. There's repeated announcements about 'not leaving luggage unattended'.

Less feasible in winter, but an item of clothing should work and isn't "luggage". Also leave the table down.

Only once has some muppet ignored it and moved my coat, but I told him in no uncertain terms to shift as that's really quite obvious. There were other seats but I thought the gall of it was quite something.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'm not sure I fully understand what this means. Does it mean that all seats will now show "Available" unless there is an existing reservation for them, and the sensors will upload data to the reservation system so that you won't be able to reserve a seat that someone is already sat in?

If I board at Leeds or Kings Cross, there are no green seats in the reservable carriages. Lights are red for Reserved or yellow for May Be Reserved. Most of those yellows never get reserved en route, so they could (and should) be green. Hopefully, if someone sits in a green seat this new system will removed it from the reservable list. Hopefully…

 

[ainsworth74]

If I board at Leeds or Kings Cross, there are no green seats in the reservable carriages. Lights are red for Reserved or yellow for May Be Reserved. Most of those yellows never get reserved en route, so they could (and should) be green. Hopefully, if someone sits in a green seat this new system will removed it from the reservable list. Hopefully…

Perhaps I've had extraordinarily good luck but there's always been, apart from the busiest of trains, green lights visible. Today for instance, Darlington to London, plenty of green unreserved seats. Indeed the one next to me was green!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps I've had extraordinarily good luck but there's always been, apart from the busiest of trains, green lights visible. Today for instance, Darlington to London, plenty of green unreserved seats. Indeed the one next to me was green!

It appears to me (outside of this system) that seats don't go yellow once their existing reservation has ended, but instead go green.

 

[Segedunum]

If I board at Leeds or Kings Cross, there are no green seats in the reservable carriages. Lights are red for Reserved or yellow for May Be Reserved. Most of those yellows never get reserved en route, so they could (and should) be green. Hopefully, if someone sits in a green seat this new system will removed it from the reservable list. Hopefully…

This has now changed and yellow only means that a seat will be reserved later. Any seat not yet reserved at all shows as green.

 

[yorksrob]

If it does away with the "may be reserved later" nonsense, it might be useful.

 

[YorksLad12]

Perhaps I've had extraordinarily good luck but there's always been, apart from the busiest of trains, green lights visible. Today for instance, Darlington to London, plenty of green unreserved seats. Indeed the one next to me was green!

I must just be boarding busy trains. Friday lunchtime from Leeds to Kings Cross is solid.

It appears to me (outside of this system) that seats don't go yellow once their existing reservation has ended, but instead go green.

Yes - I should have added that. The odd thing about that is that they could, in theory, be re-reserved later in the journey.

This has now changed and yellow only means that a seat will be reserved later. Any seat not yet reserved at all shows as green.

Pedantically (unusual, for this forum): if it *will* be reserved later it should stay red, and the display say something along the lines of "Reserved from KX to Peterborough / Reserved from Retford to Wakefield". If it *might* be reserved, it should be yellow, but has been turning green. Which is confusing, as a green or yellow seat could be reserved during the journey if you're far enough along the route from where the reserved seat became free. Unless that seat is removed from the might-be-reserved list once it has been reserved the first time, of course. My head hurts now.

Also pedantically: if you're colour blind, the lights go grey-yellow-grey, which means you have to stop and read the text (but that's a discussion for elsewhere). Either way, if the new system works for the passenger, I'll take it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pedantically (unusual, for this forum): if it *will* be reserved later it should stay red, and the display say something along the lines of "Reserved from KX to Peterborough / Reserved from Retford to Wakefield".

No. Yellow on most TOCs means "not reserved at this point on the journey but will be later". Thus if you're going one stop you know you can sit in a yellow seat without having to read the display. Red means "currently reserved".

 

[Wychwood93]

No. Yellow on most TOCs means "not reserved at this point on the journey but will be later". Thus if you're going one stop you know you can sit in a yellow seat without having to read the display. Red means "currently reserved".

I think that on GWR a yellow will have 'reserved from Swindon to Paddington' - other combinations of start and finish are obviously available.

 

[Mike395]

This has now changed and yellow only means that a seat will be reserved later. Any seat not yet reserved at all shows as green.

To be clear, this means that if you find a green seat outside of the unreserved part of C, you're taking a chance it's going to be reserved anyway later in the journey? Big retrograde step if so in my opinion.

 

[yorksrob]

To be clear, this means that if you find a green seat outside of the unreserved part of C, you're taking a chance it's going to be reserved anyway later in the journey? Big retrograde step if so in my opinion.

Yes, what's the point of having green if you can be turfed out anyway. Nonsense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be clear, this means that if you find a green seat outside of the unreserved part of C, you're taking a chance it's going to be reserved anyway later in the journey? Big retrograde step if so in my opinion.

No, because these sensors detect you sitting there and so don't offer that seat for reservation. Unless they have changed it on all units pending installation of them of course.

On Avanti green does indeed turn yellow/red from under you as the sensors don't work, though. Avanti however have quite a lot more unreservable seating, particularly on an 11 car.

 

[Kite159]

Or you find a seat which says it's available, only to be turfed out by someone with a seat reservation for that seat as the system update has failed to update the screen to take into account a last minute seat reservation

 

[mmh]

We just need to move back to reservations available before a train departs its origin. We could even put bits of paper on top of the seats saying where it's reserved from and to.

I'm only half joking there. The ability to reserve a seat someone's already sitting in is a nonsense, however it's implemented.

 

[Mike395]

Maybe I’m scarred by the 225s but with the number of times I’ve seen the sensors not work, relying on them to block taken seats - in real time - seems dubious to me.

 

[VT 390]

The ability to reserve a seat someone's already sitting in is a nonsense, however it's implemented.

Providing you are clearly warned, such as the display saying May Be Reserved Later, and that there is some completely unreserved seating available I do not see an issue with this. As on longer LNER (or any operators) journeys where the service may have departed the origin hours before it reached the station you are boarding at its nice to be able to guarantee a suitable seat at stations where all services will be mid journey (therefore most unreserved seats will likely be taken).

Although I do think there should be at least 1 carriage on fully unreserved seating and on train staff should be given the ability to reserve you a may be reserved later seat in case you do not have a method of doing so. I would also agree that if a seat is green/shown as available it should not be possible to reserve it.