What improvements could be made to the Conwy Valley timetable?

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding the Conwy Valley, I think implementing an hourly service would be more beneficial all round over the current timetable operated with a 3 car unit.

Additional services wouldn't even need to go all the way, they could operate as Betws-Y-Coed shuttles.

It's not possible to do hourly with the passing loops where it is. I think you could do two hourly clockface only as far as Betws if you didn't serve south of there (but if you wanted to up that using Llanrwst loop it'd be something like a 90-30 split). The best service in the past was I think about a 1h15 frequency? There was a website about it but I can't find it now.

If you could add a second unit, it would probably make most sense to adapt the signalling so you could send one down to Betws and back while the other was on the bottom section, but it would result in an irregular service.

More recently, when it interworked with a Junction-Holyhead stopping service (late 90s) it didn't have a notably higher frequency but the passing loop was used to allow both a morning and evening peak workers' service and the school services to be provided. With a 3 hourly service that isn't presently possible, though it could sort of be done by reducing the frequency by one round trip per day in order to better target the ones left, which I've proposed before on here. In that case you'd definitely want to use a 3 car.

 

[amahy]

In my opinion, a 2 train service operated by 2 car 197s is the way to go. The second diagram should be an express Llandudno to Betws-y-Coed, probably calling at Deganwy, Llandudno Junction, Tal-y-Cafn, North Llanwrst, and Llanwrst. The 2 trains could pass at North Llanwrst and Llandudno Junction, depending on pathing.

There could also be an option for the second diagram to start some services from Bangor, although I am unsure what the demand is for Bangor - Conwy Valley.

 

[mmh]

In my opinion, a 2 train service operated by 2 car 197s is the way to go. The second diagram should be an express Llandudno to Betws-y-Coed, probably calling at Deganwy, Llandudno Junction, Tal-y-Cafn, North Llanwrst, and Llanwrst. The 2 trains could pass at North Llanwrst and Llandudno Junction, depending on pathing.

There could also be an option for the second diagram to start some services from Bangor, although I am unsure what the demand is for Bangor - Conwy Valley.

I doubt there'd be a point to having "express" services. If you wanted to imagine a line not suited to varying stopping patterns, this would be one. They'd also cause a world of local news and political grumbling.

As for Bangor services, I doubt there's much latent demand there. Just time the connections at Junction properly. The only place west of Junction likely to get significant traffic from the Valley would likely be Conwy, and then only at weekends, for booze-ups. Bringing back Bangor/Holyhead to Llandudno services (which won't happen) would be more used.

 

[Oxfordblues]

In an ideal world (ie Switzerland) there'd be a two-hourly train alternating with a two-hourly bus, but this is Wales so we take what we get.

 

[amahy]

I doubt there'd be a point to having "express" services. If you wanted to imagine a line not suited to varying stopping patterns, this would be one. They'd also cause a world of local news and political grumbling.

The reason I suggested such a service, is that other stations are request stops anyway, so many existing services end up skipping those stations, as they are not always requested.

Also, if such a second diagram were to run with the existing diagram staying the same, the second diagram may have to run fast to avoid conflicts.

 

[mmh]

The reason I suggested such a service, is that other stations are request stops anyway, so many existing services end up skipping those stations, as they are not always requested.

Also, if such a second diagram were to run with the existing diagram staying the same, the second diagram may have to run fast to avoid conflicts.

With a low capacity, low frequency line the last thing you should be doing is writing a timetable that relies on skipping stations to stop a few seconds, surely?

Nobody cares about getting somewhere 2 minutes sooner. They'll care about a more frequent service, at useful times, and decent connections at Junction (some are appalling).

Which is probably a reason to keep the line self-contained rather than import delays onto it from far away.

 

[stevieinselby]

With a low capacity, low frequency line the last thing you should be doing is writing a timetable that relies on skipping stations to stop a few seconds, surely?

Nobody cares about getting somewhere 2 minutes sooner. They'll care about a more frequent service, at useful times, and decent connections at Junction (some are appalling).

Which is probably a reason to keep the line self-contained rather than import delays onto it from far away.

The only good reason to cut any stops would be if you need to reduce the running time between passing loops in order to coordinate with a second unit on the line.

 

[splashoutradio]

Whether it constitutes a timetable improvement, I'm not sure, but TfW recently held a public consultation on proposed changes to the timetable. As with any timetable change, there's winners and losers - it appears to focus on making the line more usable for those travelling to/from Llandudno for work and leisure, later trains and improved connections to some of the wider bus/rail network.

The consultation has now closed, but the draft timetable is viewable on the tfw website: https://haveyoursay.tfw.wales/conwy-valley-timetable

 

[amahy]

Whether it constitutes a timetable improvement, I'm not sure, but TfW recently held a public consultation on proposed changes to the timetable. As with any timetable change, there's winners and losers - it appears to focus on making the line more usable for those travelling to/from Llandudno for work and leisure, later trains and improved connections to some of the wider bus/rail network.

The consultation has now closed, but the draft timetable is viewable on the tfw website: https://haveyoursay.tfw.wales/conwy-valley-timetable

This doesn't seem to be good news for the Ffestiniog Railway, as the "improved" timetable seems to make all connections with their services worse, especially going northbound. Hopefully, TfW and F&WHR communicate to resolve this, before the timetable is finalised.

 

[Djgr]

This doesn't seem to be good news for the Ffestiniog Railway, as the "improved" timetable seems to make all connections with their services worse, especially going northbound. Hopefully, TfW and F&WHR communicate to resolve this, before the timetable is finalised.

I thought nowadays the Ffestiniog was only interesting in providing experiences?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought nowadays the Ffestiniog was only interesting in providing experiences?

Pretty much. They will sell you a ticket from the Blaenau end but they favour Porthmadog I think.

 

[Djgr]

Pretty much. They will sell you a ticket from the Blaenau end but they favour Porthmadog I think.

So I'm thinking connections to the National Rail network are far down their agenda?

 

[amahy]

I thought nowadays the Ffestiniog was only interesting in providing experiences?

There is still The Quarryman, which runs from Blaenau Ffestiniog 5 days a week in peak Summer, and less at other times of year. I did this in Summer 2024, and it was fairly popular with people using the Conwy Valley line to connect with the service. It would be a real shame if this connectivity with North Wales was lost.

 

[Starmill]

There is still The Quarryman, which runs from Blaenau Ffestiniog 5 days a week in peak Summer, and less at other times of year. I did this in Summer 2024, and it was fairly popular with people using the Conwy Valley line to connect with the service. It would be a real shame if this connectivity with North Wales was lost.

That's still only one train a day. However I think you can book singles and intermediate round trips in person, although they'd rather you didn't?

 

[Djgr]

There is still The Quarryman, which runs from Blaenau Ffestiniog 5 days a week in peak Summer, and less at other times of year. I did this in Summer 2024, and it was fairly popular with people using the Conwy Valley line to connect with the service. It would be a real shame if this connectivity with North Wales was lost.

But I guess TfW can't plan their entire North Wales timetable around a single non daily train.

 

[amahy]

But I guess TfW can't plan their entire North Wales timetable around a single non daily train.

Indeed. But the Conwy Valley line isn't the "entire North Wales timetable". It's one train going up and down all day, with limited interaction with other services, other than at Llandudno Junction, of course.

 

[WAB]

Indeed. But the Conwy Valley line isn't the "entire North Wales timetable". It's one train going up and down all day, with limited interaction with other services, other than at Llandudno Junction, of course.

A service which will be timed to connect off the mainline as well as with buses at Betws.

 

[Djgr]

There is still The Quarryman, which runs from Blaenau Ffestiniog 5 days a week in peak Summer, and less at other times of year. I did this in Summer 2024, and it was fairly popular with people using the Conwy Valley line to connect with the service. It would be a real shame if this connectivity with North Wales was lost.

£50 return!!!

 

[Llandudno]

In my opinion, a 2 train service operated by 2 car 197s is the way to go. The second diagram should be an express Llandudno to Betws-y-Coed, probably calling at Deganwy, Llandudno Junction, Tal-y-Cafn, North Llanwrst, and Llanwrst. The 2 trains could pass at North Llanwrst and Llandudno Junction, depending on pathing.

There could also be an option for the second diagram to start some services from Bangor, although I am unsure what the demand is for Bangor - Conwy Valley.

The T10 bus runs largely hourly between Bangor and Betws y Coed and is considerably quicker and cheaper than the train.

 

[30907]

Here's an idea based on the draft
0810 Llandudno-Betws-LLD
1010 LLD-Blaenau-LLD
1310 LLD-BYC-LLD
1510 LLD-BFF-LLJ (Junction)
1740 LLJ-BFF-LLD (depending on connection ex LLD)
First and last trains as per draft (0543 LLJ and 2010 LLD)

This gets a better mid-morning train to Blaenau and one extra return trip to Betws in exchange for two fewer trains to BFF, while maintaining the commuter times at LLD

 

[Starmill]

With a low capacity, low frequency line the last thing you should be doing is writing a timetable that relies on skipping stations to stop a few seconds, surely?

It already happens for the reasons given in the post you're quoting. The first one only serves Tal-y-Cafn, Llanrwst, Betws-y-Coed and Blaunau Ffestiniog. It would be nothing new.

 

[Krokodil]

A two-train service would be pretty revolutionary. Llanrwst loop is already in the right place for this (halfway between Llandudno and Blaenau), but it does fix the pattern at 2tp3h. OK, it's not entirely clockface but the frequency increase is enough of a benefit without significant Capex. Using the proposed Dec 26 timetable as a basis and filling in the gaps with the second unit, it would be pretty good for school kids attending Ysgol John Bright in Llandudno (for those wanting English medium) and Ysgol Dyffryn Conwy in Llanrwst. Today's school kids commuting by train will get used to using public transport and remain customers into adulthood, rather than having to rush through their test at 17 to gain some independence. The line would also be able to cope much better with the tourist traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd certainly say 2tp3h would be a big upgrade and is I think the best it has been in history. However ideally if money can be found it would be good to look into what can be done, at least for Saturdays, to get a MUCH more frequent service to Betws, which might mean another loop.

The slight issue with going off clockface is the bus connections, but equally Betws is a nice place to spend half an hour so people may not be bothered by that.

Certainly a big gain would be being able to do both a school journey (1600ish) and a retail worker commuter journey (1800ish) rather than just having to do one of the two, though historically a bus used to fill in for the commuter timed one.

 

[The exile]

The slight issue with going off clockface is the bus connections, but equally Betws is a nice place to spend half an hour so people may not be bothered by that.

Though there’s a world of difference between having half an hour to while away in Betws on your holiday day out and having to do it week in week out (or even every day).

 

[Krokodil]

Though there’s a world of difference between having half an hour to while away in Betws on your holiday day out and having to do it week in week out (or even every day).

Those connecting for the S1 or T10 will overwhelmingly be tourists anyway. We're talking about extra trains in any case so no one is losing out on something they already have. Bear in mind that the current timetable already makes some locals wait a considerable amount of time before/after school/work so any frequency boost is a massive gain for them, and this can be accomplished using the existing infrastructure.