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Just for fun - a new railway after HS2

Topological

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Interesting that you propose faster services to Bristol and South Wales. I've lamented for years on this forum, that even after electrification, London-Cardiff is slower than it was almost 50 (yes FIFTY) years ago!
I've always been shouted down by those who say that stopping all trains more often is more important than Cardiff getting a premium service.
I've also, even in this thread, had people saying there just isn't the market for long distance non stop services in the UK.
So how do you think that a new route to Cardiff could be justified? Perhaps you can present a case better than I can. Good luck! :D
It would make sense to have new lines, but the current GWR offering cannot be made faster as there needs to be services at the stations that the current GWR fasts serve.

I do not know the service of 50 years ago, but if there was a half-hourly service from Cardiff consistently achieving faster journey times than now then that would be something to go back to. If (and I assume this is the case) it was about select express trains and that there was not a half hourly service taking 2 hours, then I think the new version is better.

I think you would get a great market for a 1 hour journey time Cardiff to Old Oak. You could finally put Cardiff Airport out of its misery.
 
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Mgameing123

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Interesting that you propose faster services to Bristol and South Wales. I've lamented for years on this forum, that even after electrification, London-Cardiff is slower than it was almost 50 (yes FIFTY) years ago!
I've always been shouted down by those who say that stopping all trains more often is more important than Cardiff getting a premium service.
I've also, even in this thread, had people saying there just isn't the market for long distance non stop services in the UK.
So how do you think that a new route to Cardiff could be justified? Perhaps you can present a case better than I can. Good luck! :D
Well this isn't actually a non stop service. It's more a limited stop high speed train that serves the majority of popular destinations of the route. Like Heathrow, Reading, Bristol and Cardiff.

And obviously this route isn't only for London to Cardiff trains. It's for basically every GWR fast train which can branch where they need to. (Penzance service branches off at Reading or Bristol, Oxford and the Cotswold services branch off at Reading etc.)

Cardiff getting a non stop train to London probably isn't a good idea unless if it continues on to Carmarthen where it can pick up some additional London bound passengers.
 

FGWHST43009

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I think there's much to be said for a HSR from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow via East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds, Teesside and Tyneside.
Route details to be developed, along with how to dovetail links from Birmingham and Manchester to Sheffield and further north.
HS2 is fine for relieving pressure on WCML, but there is plenty of scope for another full route to Scotland, all the way from London.
I agree, I've thought of a similar plan myself and how it can be phased.
Full line would be London, Luton, Leicester, East Midlands Hub, Sheffield Meadowhall, Leeds Hauptbahnhof, Teesside Hauptbahnhof, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow Central Hauptbahnhof. Name would be HSNE.

Alignment designed for 400kmh where possible, 360/320 elsewhere.

Include a spur to connect with (hopefully) an electrified Highland Mainline and coast line to Aberdeen to allow HS service to Inverness and Aberdeen. Connect with HS2 XC leg from Birmingham at EMH and include a connection to electrified XC route south of Birmingham Interchange. Include an orbital HSL to the north of London connecting HSNE, HS2 and HSGW mentioned earlier with hub station in Heathrow.

Phase 1
London - new station underneath King's Cross/St Pancras with a mix of north-south facing platforms for domestic services and east-west platforms to connect with CTRL for trains to Europe. The E-W platforms would be connected to HS2 and HSGW to enable through services from all HS lines.

Luton - new station either in tunnel or on top of the existing line at Luton Airport Parkway, creating a transport hub called Luton Interchange.

Leicester - new underground Lille-Europe style station.

East Midlands Hub - largely built to original HS2 specs with upgrades to connecting rail, bus and tram routes.

Sheffield Meadowhall - as per HS2 plans with upgrades to connecting transport routes. Then onto Leeds

Leeds Hauptbahnhof. New north-south through platforms or east-west ones with an expanded HSNE/NPR station. A connection will be made with the original new NPR lines from Leeds to the ECML so trains can serve York. Meanwhile the main line would turn off and head north east.

New line would head north east and end just north of York connecting to the ECML. This would be the end of Phase 1.

Phase 2
Continuing the new line from Leeds, following the ECML corridor as much as possible to Teesside.

Teesside - New underground north-south station either at Middlesbrough or Thornaby, creating a Teesside Hub.

Then head north west towards Newcastle.

Newcastle - either connect to a 4 track ECML either near Birtley or Team Valley (will need considerable tunnelling to enable this) or build a new station underneath Newcastle. This would be hard to do as the Metro is already there.

Whatever is done in Newcastle will affect this next bit.
If a new station is built, just continue north on a new line, a section of which would already exist as the Morpeth bypass which would be built alongside Phase 1. Then continue as full new line mentioned below.

If the existing station is used with new platforms built, then the ECML out of Newcastle would be 4 tracked as far as Killingworth, where the new line would diverge.
The first bit will be built earlier as part of the Morpeth bypass starting just south of Dudley and ending just north of Chevington. This bypass will be built alongside Phase 1 and will form the first section of the new Newcastle-Edinburgh line. Then continue north, either following the coast or slightly more inland running near the A697. It gets hillier especially north of the border so run closer to the existing ECML, and tunnels will be needed. Largely follow the A1 to Edinburgh.

Edinburgh - a new station will likely be needed as there are only 2 single track Calton tunnels. Probably new E-W underground platforms.

Then continue west to Glasgow. Near the airport or Broxburn the Aberdeen and Inverness spur will branch off. The Inverness branch will end just south of Perth and the Aberdeen one connecting onto the Perth-Dundee line as that line has a faster approach into Dundee than the coast line.

Glasgow - A new underground at Central. Or build it diagonally between the two connecting both stations and thus creating a massive Glasgow Hauptbahnhof and ending Phase 2. The distance (as the crow flies) between Central and Queen Street is around 500m, so it should be feasible to construct new 400m underground platforms that are then connected to both stations. This plan should enable London to Edinburgh in 3 hours with stops at Leeds and Newcastle.

So, there's my plan. It would require a truckload of money and a lot of civil engineering work. Fantasy it may be, but I guess that's the fun of the thread.
 
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HSTEd

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Indeed, and many of those useful stops (for example Portsmouth) are places you'd ideally serve if you were run to the west rather than the south of London. As such you'd be spending money to access them anyway (as the current infrastructure wouldn't likely facilitate extra or longer trains).

It does lead to the interesting question, if you're tunneling to serve Portsmouth, could you not divert the tunnel a little to also serve the Isle of Wight?

Bearing in mind that you really could charge a premium on train tickets to there given the high cost of ferry travel. Although even ignoring that (with competition the ferry prices would reduce) the cost savings from not having to maintain the pier could be significant over time (in that it would likely need a rebuild at some point).

Probably still not enough to cover the costs for an extra 35km (?) of tunnel (bearing in mind that I'm thinking that it may well be the whole line goes that way, rather than messing around with it being on a spur, although serving it by every train through there would likely be slightly overkill) and a box station however it would be an interesting option to consider.
Well it's probably only ~10km extra route to reach Cowes ignoring terrain, although that might require a relatively sharp curve near Cowes station. That would depend on the precise alignment selected. Mainly that just results in the Portsmouth to Southampton approach being on the west side of Southampton Water. You would need to put the Southampton station in a buried box anyway to get under the container port towards Bournemouth, so it might not matter so much.

Not sure if the Isle of Wight would really want a high speed railway station, but I don't think there is any strong engineering reason not to build such a thing.
 
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Severnia333

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The realistic option is to use all the hard & expensive work already done at the London end, i.e. the miles of tunnels, OOC Station & Euston Station, and branch off at Aylesbury. If going via Oxford & Swindon & join the GWML at Wooton Bassett it nicely avoids the Chilterns, North Wessex Downs & Cotswolds. Instead of tunnelling to Oxford city like my previous version, there could be a high level Oxford Parkway station straddling the lines to Worcester, Banbury and EWR, with platforms on each. And also a better railhead location just off the M40. You could also shave off either Yate/Filton or Bath as shown in yellow to speed up London-Bristol, but probably not worth it given the popularity of both Bristol Parkway & Bath.

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It's also only 50 miles long, but unlocks a huge amount of capacity and journey time reductions
I like this. London -> Oxford Pkwy -> Swindon/Wiltshire Pkwy -> Bath -> Bristol.

Or from Swindon Bristol Pkwy -> Cardiff
 

FGWHST43009

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The realistic option is to use all the hard & expensive work already done at the London end, i.e. the miles of tunnels, OOC Station & Euston Station, and branch off at Aylesbury. If going via Oxford & Swindon & join the GWML at Wooton Bassett it nicely avoids the Chilterns, North Wessex Downs & Cotswolds. Instead of tunnelling to Oxford city like my previous version, there could be a high level Oxford Parkway station straddling the lines to Worcester, Banbury and EWR, with platforms on each. And also a better railhead location just off the M40. You could also shave off either Yate/Filton or Bath as shown in yellow to speed up London-Bristol, but probably not worth it given the popularity of both Bristol Parkway & Bath.

View attachment 200984

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It's also only 50 miles long, but unlocks a huge amount of capacity and journey time reductions
This looks like a great idea and an easy way to kill two birds with one stone. No need for an XC connection near Brum and no need for new line all the way into London. HS2 would become very busy though, so I think that would be a justification for my 'HSNE' plan mentioned above. I will add a connection from the GW line (the turquoise one) to HSNE near Bedford. Of course I haven't produced any maps yet but it could create a sort of 'high speed roundabout' around London.
 

Shrop

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I agree, I've thought of a similar plan myself and how it can be phased.
Full line would be London, Luton, Leicester, East Midlands Hub, Sheffield Meadowhall, Leeds Hauptbahnhof, Teesside Hauptbahnhof, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow Central Hauptbahnhof. Name would be HSNE.

...

So, there's my plan. It would require a truckload of money and a lot of civil engineering work. Fantasy it may be, but I guess that's the fun of the thread.
 

NCT

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Why not, given that the line would be subject to a significant timetable recast which would change the impact compared to previous examples?

Everything else around SWR land is half hourly or lends itself to half hourly. South Central has a good half-hourly based pattern going on, including West Coastway. Salisbury wants to be a half hourly based Swiss-style takt node. 3tph and 2tph patterns don't mesh well and don't connect well.

If Portsmouth Direct Line and the SWML want to become 6tph they can be 3 sets of 2tph, something like:

Portsmouth Direction Line
- 2tph fast
- 2tph first stop Woking then all stops to Haselmere
- 2tph Woking, Guidford Haselmere then all stops to Portsmouth

SWML
- 2tph fast to Southampton and fast to Bournemouth and Weymouth
- 2tph semi-fast to Fareham and Portsmouth
- 2tph semi-fast to Southampton and all stops Bournemouth

This would (hopefully) mean Guildford, Winchester get reasonably spread 6tph to London; Haslemere, Petersfield and Southampton Airport get reasonably spread 4tph to London.

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Interesting that you propose faster services to Bristol and South Wales. I've lamented for years on this forum, that even after electrification, London-Cardiff is slower than it was almost 50 (yes FIFTY) years ago!
I've always been shouted down by those who say that stopping all trains more often is more important than Cardiff getting a premium service.
I've also, even in this thread, had people saying there just isn't the market for long distance non stop services in the UK.
So how do you think that a new route to Cardiff could be justified? Perhaps you can present a case better than I can. Good luck! :D

Different contexts.

On the existing railway faster journey times to Wales means fewer Didcot and Swindon calls.

If demand grows to a point another pair of tracks is justified (e.g. if South Wales rapidly grows the knowledge worker demographic and significantly increases trip rates), then faster Wales journey time sand Didcot/Swindon calls would no longer constrain each other.
 
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TheGoodDoctor

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Just to change the mood up a bit: might metro-style lines and extensions get more popular? T&W will get its Leamside line development as part of NPR, the Cardiff Metro development is happening one way or another (not without its own problems) and with some of Manchester's local lines being incorporated into the Bee Network, I would guess this might be the more popular way to go for a while.
 

The Ham

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Everything else around SWR land is half hourly or lends itself to half hourly. South Central has a good half-hourly based pattern going on, including West Coastway. Salisbury wants to be a half hourly based Swiss-style takt node. 3tph and 2tph patterns don't mesh well and don't connect well.

If Portsmouth Direct Line and the SWML want to become 6tph they can be 3 sets of 2tph, something like:

Portsmouth Direction Line
- 2tph fast
- 2tph first stop Woking then all stops to Haselmere
- 2tph Woking, Guidford Haselmere then all stops to Portsmouth

SWML
- 2tph fast to Southampton and fast to Bournemouth and Weymouth
- 2tph semi-fast to Fareham and Portsmouth
- 2tph semi-fast to Southampton and all stops Bournemouth

This would (hopefully) mean Guildford, Winchester get reasonably spread 6tph to London; Haslemere, Petersfield and Southampton Airport get reasonably spread 4tph to London.

Three thing's to note.

Firstly, it's entirely possible to have reasonable connection times between 3tph and 2tph as most timetable planning (for travel) will require a 5 minute change time, so you could have:

xx:00 - 1/2 to X
xx:05 - 1/3 to Y
xx:25 - 2/3 to Y
xx:30 - 2/2 to X
xx:45 - 3/3 to Y (edit, previously xx:40 giving a 20, 15, 25 split)

Yes there's a 20 minute gap at the end of that, however there's also a good connection from X to Y trains and the Y to X trains, with a 2tph service you often don't get (as the less made connection can have a long wait).

Yes there's a risk that you could end up with bad connection (for example trains too close that a connection isn't shown as a valid change)

However, on a 3tph timetable of a connection is missed due to a late running train (and whilst we should never plan trains around then being late, it is something passengers have to deal with) then the next train is only ever a maximum of 20 minutes away, rather than having to wait up to 30 minutes.

10 minutes may not sound a lot, but when it's a cold windy (possibly even raining too) station with little shelter, then getting into a train quicker is a much better experience.

The second point is that you are actually unlikely to manage to get extra services to Southampton (or other services via Winchester), something which you inadvertently picked up with the Via Guildford services by having 2tph turn back at Haselmere as it's unlikely that you could fit more than 4tph to Portsmouth.

As such you're likely to need to look at options to fudge how the extra services work (and therefore 3toh isn't a service pattern). For example extra capacity to Southampton might need to be routed via Andover (although specifically not calling at Salisbury, even though it gets very close).

Whilst such a route might not be as fast as the via Winchester route (30 to 35 minutes vs 60 minutes) the via Andover route would give Romsey a direct service to London and would give Andover a direct service to Southampton and (depending on where it called between London and Basingstoke) could give more stations a direct service to Southampton, Romsey and Andover. It also means that you can use price to increase capacity by attracting less time sensitive passengers to use the services which take longer.

The third point, is that you've totally ignored places like via Farnham, the Basingstoke Stoppers and the services which turn back at Woking, they are unlikely to justify 4tph (not least because other places would always win when it comes to the extra paths from Waterloo) and overlaying an extra service to a 2tph service would mean a good service in one half of the hour (or potentially a 25, 5 and 30 minute gap between services pattern) which is less desirable than a "proper" 3tph service.

Whilst places like Winchfield aren't going to justify 3tph as things stand, that's not the whole picture. For example the Alton and Basingstoke services give Surbiton a 4tph fast service to Waterloo, that could be a true 6tph service if those services went to 3tph.

Also as those services aren't serving key locations their interchange times to other services at junctions (for example at Basingstoke they don't always mesh well with trains to Southampton, Portsmouth, Salisbury and Reading, likewise they don't always work well with eachother at Woking), again which such a change isn't going to impact a lot of current passengers, it had the potential to make it easier to travel between otherwise harder station pairings.

Also, given this for something which is at least 10 years away, planning could be granted for 20,000 new homes (so a town of circa 50,000 people, which could add 4+ million journeys to the rail network) near to Winchfield station (there's a lot of fields there) and so change the dynamics of the service.

4 million partner movements average 11,000 per day, even if only 20% of those were to London (using season tickets to set the price, rather than turn up and go tickets) that's a little over £11 million in income.

That's potentially enough to cover the cost of the new service (if we assume £200,000 in leasing costs per coach, and leasing costs being 1/3 of TOC costs, that's just under £10 million in extra costs to add 8 coaches running in each direction in a service which is basically 60 minutes end to end - yes it's slightly more, however the Basingstoke Stoppers sit in a sliding or at the platform at Basingstoke for 27 minutes, so any small extra could easily be absorbed within that time).

Obviously that's a big IF, however the point being is that 20,000 extra homes isn't that significant over a 20 year period along the route of the Basingstoke Stoppers between Farnborough and Basingstoke and whilst it might not be totally viable in 2040, it might be by 2046. Although, an increased frequency could make the existing population also more likely to use the service.
 
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Austriantrain

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But what part of "generating new traffic" do you (and others) not understand?

I do understand it. But first of all, generating new traffic for the sake of itself is not a goal I consider worth pursuing. New traffic in the sense that suppressed demand can finally be decently served; yes, that ist very worthwhile. It can, however, be done on an existing railway if capacity is there (it is not as the existing railways were particularly slow, speed is not the issue); and that should be the case if HS2's Eastern arm ever gets built (at least to York, further north is a different issue). Of course, if also requires that the government is supportive of such traffic, of course, which very often it does not seem to be when London is not concerned. But if it isn't, how would it ever agree to a new high-speed line for the same traffic?
 
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Clansman

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It's pretty safe to assume that HS2 will be completed to Birmingham and provide some benefits for Manchester.

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?
Glasgow to Newcastle via Edinburgh, with a station underneath Edinburgh Airport.
 

Casper Pesky

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I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned Edinburgh - Glasgow - Stranraer - Belfast - Dublin - Holyhead - Stoke - Derby - Nottingham - King's Lynn - Norwich - Great Yarmouth - Haalem - Amsterdam.

HS3?
 

The Ham

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I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned Edinburgh - Glasgow - Stranraer - Belfast - Dublin - Holyhead - Stoke - Derby - Nottingham - King's Lynn - Norwich - Great Yarmouth - Haalem - Amsterdam.

HS3?

Or the loop* idea linking cities in the North, Scotland and the island of Ireland (oh yes and Bangor in Wales) via two bridges across the Irish Sea.

* or should that be loopy
 

NCT

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Three thing's to note.

Firstly, it's entirely possible to have reasonable connection times between 3tph and 2tph as most timetable planning (for travel) will require a 5 minute change time, so you could have:

xx:00 - 1/2 to X
xx:05 - 1/3 to Y
xx:25 - 2/3 to Y
xx:30 - 2/2 to X
xx:40 - 3/3 to Y

Yes there's a 20 minute gap at the end of that, however there's also a good connection from X to Y trains and the Y to X trains, with a 2tph service you often don't get (as the less made connection can have a long wait).

Yes there's a risk that you could end up with bad connection (for example trains too close that a connection isn't shown as a valid change)

However, on a 3tph timetable of a connection is missed due to a late running train (and whilst we should never plan trains around then being late, it is something passengers have to deal with) then the next train is only ever a maximum of 20 minutes away, rather than having to wait up to 30 minutes.

10 minutes may not sound a lot, but when it's a cold windy (possibly even raining too) station with little shelter, then getting into a train quicker is a much better experience.

The second point is that you are actually unlikely to manage to get extra services to Southampton (or other services via Winchester), something which you inadvertently picked up with the Via Guildford services by having 2tph turn back at Haselmere as it's unlikely that you could fit more than 4tph to Portsmouth.

As such you're likely to need to look at options to fudge how the extra services work (and therefore 3toh isn't a service pattern). For example extra capacity to Southampton might need to be routed via Andover (although specifically not calling at Salisbury, even though it gets very close).

Whilst such a route might not be as fast as the via Winchester route (30 to 35 minutes vs 60 minutes) the via Andover route would give Romsey a direct service to London and would give Andover a direct service to Southampton and (depending on where it called between London and Basingstoke) could give more stations a direct service to Southampton, Romsey and Andover. It also means that you can use price to increase capacity by attracting less time sensitive passengers to use the services which take longer.

The third point, is that you've totally ignored places like via Farnham, the Basingstoke Stoppers and the services which turn back at Woking, they are unlikely to justify 4tph (not least because other places would always win when it comes to the extra paths from Waterloo) and overlaying an extra service to a 2tph service would mean a good service in one half of the hour (or potentially a 25, 5 and 30 minute gap between services pattern) which is less desirable than a "proper" 3tph service.

Whilst places like Winchfield aren't going to justify 3tph as things stand, that's not the whole picture. For example the Alton and Basingstoke services give Surbiton a 4tph fast service to Waterloo, that could be a true 6tph service if those services went to 3tph.

Also as those services aren't serving key locations their interchange times to other services at junctions (for example at Basingstoke they don't always mesh well with trains to Southampton, Portsmouth, Salisbury and Reading, likewise they don't always work well with eachother at Woking), again which such a change isn't going to impact a lot of current passengers, it had the potential to make it easier to travel between otherwise harder station pairings.

This is just needlessly complicated. In your own example your 3tph has to be bent creating a 25-minute gap. When you mix a 30-minute cycle with a 20-minute cycle on a common section of railway, managing speed differential becomes nigh-on impossible, and you end up pathing out limited stop services, and your overall service interval becomes a mess. Such timetables rarely perform well.

Outside of Haslemere or Eastleigh don't need 6tph. There's no point in providing a Southampton via Andover service - London passengers aren't going to use that service beyond Salisbury - you'll be running a 10-car train carrying fresh air. Big trains carrying few passengers on cheap tickets = losses = subsidies.

With Crossrail 2, the 'first stop Surbiton' trains can be routed via the existing slow lines. You can run a peak pattern of 6tph Guildford via Cobham and 6tph Surbiton then all stops to Woking (need a Woking turnback + flyover solution).

With 24+ tph to play for the fast line peak pattern can be something like (all services first stop Woking or even some non-stop Woking)
- 6tph Portsmouth Direct Line (of which 2tph to Haslemere only)
- 6tph via Winchester
- 4tph via Andover
- 2tph Alton
- 6tph Woking then all stations to Basingstoke
 

The Ham

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This is just needlessly complicated. In your own example your 3tph has to be bent creating a 25-minute gap. When you mix a 30-minute cycle with a 20-minute cycle on a common section of railway, managing speed differential becomes nigh-on impossible, and you end up pathing out limited stop services, and your overall service interval becomes a mess. Such timetables rarely perform well.

Outside of Haslemere or Eastleigh don't need 6tph. There's no point in providing a Southampton via Andover service - London passengers aren't going to use that service beyond Salisbury - you'll be running a 10-car train carrying fresh air. Big trains carrying few passengers on cheap tickets = losses = subsidies.

With Crossrail 2, the 'first stop Surbiton' trains can be routed via the existing slow lines. You can run a peak pattern of 6tph Guildford via Cobham and 6tph Surbiton then all stops to Woking (need a Woking turnback + flyover solution).

With 24+ tph to play for the fast line peak pattern can be something like (all services first stop Woking or even some non-stop Woking)
- 6tph Portsmouth Direct Line (of which 2tph to Haslemere only)
- 6tph via Winchester
- 4tph via Andover
- 2tph Alton
- 6tph Woking then all stations to Basingstoke

Sorry service 3/3 should have read as xx:45, as whilst the indirect xx:40 did give a 25 minute gap after it, it also gave a 15 minute gap before it. Ah of forgotten that I'd shifted the 3tph forwards by 5 minutes and so it wasn't at 00, 20 and 40 minutes past the hour but rather at 05, 25, and 45 minutes past the hour.

Whilst your suggested service pattern looks neat there's a few problems.

Firstly, the good people of Aldershot and Farnham (even if you couldn't get a more frequent service beyond,v or even to Farnham) aren't going to be happy about only having 2tph when places like Hook and Winchfield (their combined passenger count pre COVID was circa 1.2 million) would be getting 6tph - a frequency which few other stations would be getting, so there would be a lot of other places wondering why they are getting such a good service.

The larger stations (Farnborough and Fleet) are already served by via Winchester services and so see 4toh and 3tph already, so would be seeing up to 10tph with your proposed uplift.

You're also going to struggle to be able to turn back 6tph at Basingstoke.

A more likely outcome would be 4tph to Aldershot with at least 2tph beyond there (assuming Farnham keeps its 1tph to Guildford they would benefit from the Aldershot uplift if they are willing to change trains, even if they only have 2tph direct to Waterloo) and 4tph all stations to Basingstoke (Farnborough and fleet would see up to 6tph under this option)

Having said that, there could be a good case for some of the new services through Andover to gain a stop at Farnborough Main and possibly Fleet, as currently to travel to stations within Hampshire either side of Basingstoke requires a chance at Basingstoke.

Secondly, given that XC could only ruin 1.5tph to/through Southampton, I'm not sure that you could run 6tph via Winchester and even if you can that's not much more than the 5tph which currently run in some hours.

I fully accept that you're not going to have a lot of people from Southampton using a via Andover service, however that doesn't mean that it won't increase capacity on the Southampton services via Winchester.

First up you can get some shift by having some less time sensitive but more money sensitive passengers go the other way. However the likely larger shift would be those from the line between Romsey and up towards Salisbury (although the further north you go the fewer people who would have been changing in Southampton) who would likely prefer to take a direct service rather head south and change at Southampton.

Would it justify 10/12 coach trains, probably not, however until such time as there sufficient passenger uplift to need to run everything as full length trains it's not unreasonable to run shorter services (for instance it's not uncommon for the to be 3 coach 159's off peak into Waterloo).

For peak hour services there's two options, pair it with another service at Andover so it's a full length, and/or accept it might be fairly empty until Basingstoke (although you'll likely get a fair amount of people going to or changing trains at Basingstoke) and then work out the best calling pattern to maximise the capacity of the train after that (potentially a fast service with no other stops just ahead of a train from Southampton with a couple of stops so those heading to Waterloo "save" a few minutes by getting the earlier train and are more likely to get a seat).

Finally, I'm not running trains on the show like which don't call at every stop onwards of Surbiton is going to do to the frequency which could be delivered. Anyway, you also don't want to make everyone who is going to places served by the Basingstoke and Alton trains currently have to change trains at Woking for a shower train into Waterloo for those stations.

In fact it may even be that (assuming 4tph to Aldershot and 4tph to Basingstoke) you might even run 2tph using the current Alton casing pattern onwards of Woking and 2tph using the Basingstoke casing pattern for each route, so that would be:
- 2tph Clapham Junction, Surbiton, Walton-on-Thames, Weybridge, Woking, Brookwood
- 2tph Clapham Junction, Surbiton (possible extra stop at Wimbledon), West Byfleet, Woking, Brookwood

The reason for the extra stop at Wimbledon is to balance the journey times between the service pairs but also to create a whole raft of station pairs which can be undertaken with just one change of train (be that London Underground or tram or Crossrail 2 - remembering that will see a those services too in the future).

Yes, there may need to be consideration at to how such calls happen as thought may need to be given to if it is acceptable to have the fast platforms fully open again due to the safety issues there have been there in the past. Although, something which may mitigate this concern (and/or permit the use of the slow line platforms anyway) is the fact that the Crossrail 2 platforms will be underground so there could be fewer passengers waiting in the existing platform.

One additional minor point, I'm not sure if the 8tph uplift would also need to cater for services like the Woking stoppers, this wouldn't necessarily be ideal to extend beyond Woking, but as with the Southampton Via Andover service, it's not without it's merits.

However it would need to have careful consideration as to service patterns so you don't in effect create a service pattern with a 15, 15 minute 30 minute fast service and the train in the 30 minute gap then ends up resulting in people either not using it to go to Waterloo or changing along the route to avoid being overtaken by the train they could have got it they waited another 15 minutes.

If we were to do that, we'd be better off with even my miss typed 3tph service pattern as then the largest gap would have been 25 minutes (although with the corrected time it's only 20 minutes).

Personally, running 4tph for the Woking stoppers (maybe extending them as an extra service to Basingstoke and/or Aldershot, but as a 1tph not to try and make it part of a 4tph frequency) with Basingstoke and Aldershot (and beyond) services seeing 3tph frequencies with at least 1tph of those calling at Wimbledon (any Woking Stoppers being extended would increase that). Even under this option Farnborough would see an uplift from 4tph to 5tph (maybe even 7tph of the Southern Approach to Heathrow is also built) and Fleet would be 4tph.

If there was a desperate need for a higher frequency between Woking and Basingstoke you could make one of the via Andover services call at those stations, although most likely only Farnborough Main and Fleet (giving them +1tph over the above).

If there was truely a need for more services to Hook and Winchfield, it would be better (assuming it's built) to have them served by Heathrow services using the Southern Approach to Heathrow scheme (would give them 5tph calling). As chances are that would generate more passengers using the railways than 6tph to Waterloo. Especially if those services were linked through at Heathrow to run onto Old Oak Common (HS2) and Paddington.

Of course the Southern Approach to Heathrow could be an issue in running 16tph between Woking and Basingstoke (6tph to Basingstoke, 6tph through Winchester and 4tph through Andover), especially with 8tph of those turning back at Basingstoke (6tph Waterloo and 2tph Heathrow/Paddington) with only a flat junction to do that.

Even increasing from 2tph to 5tph or even 6tph could be bad enough (although you could look at a turn back facility fully to the west of the station so platform 4 is used by these services heading towards Farnborough rather than platform 1).
 

Mgameing123

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This is just needlessly complicated. In your own example your 3tph has to be bent creating a 25-minute gap. When you mix a 30-minute cycle with a 20-minute cycle on a common section of railway, managing speed differential becomes nigh-on impossible, and you end up pathing out limited stop services, and your overall service interval becomes a mess. Such timetables rarely perform well.

Outside of Haslemere or Eastleigh don't need 6tph. There's no point in providing a Southampton via Andover service - London passengers aren't going to use that service beyond Salisbury - you'll be running a 10-car train carrying fresh air. Big trains carrying few passengers on cheap tickets = losses = subsidies.

With Crossrail 2, the 'first stop Surbiton' trains can be routed via the existing slow lines. You can run a peak pattern of 6tph Guildford via Cobham and 6tph Surbiton then all stops to Woking (need a Woking turnback + flyover solution).

With 24+ tph to play for the fast line peak pattern can be something like (all services first stop Woking or even some non-stop Woking)
- 6tph Portsmouth Direct Line (of which 2tph to Haslemere only)
- 6tph via Winchester
- 4tph via Andover
- 2tph Alton
- 6tph Woking then all stations to Basingstoke
Why is it that on this forum people hate the concept of affordable public transport? Like train ticket prices are too expensive right now. If a new service can provide me cheap tickets then PLEASE RUN IT!
 

The Ham

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Why is it that on this forum people hate the concept of affordable public transport? Like train ticket prices are too expensive right now. If a new service can provide me cheap tickets then PLEASE RUN IT!

One of the things which would help with cheaper tickets is more passengers using the railways (yes I know what do you do first to get that to happen), however one thing which will help us running more trains over tracks which are under used.

There's a lot of fixed costs with running a railway which hardly change fi the track is having 1tph or 3tph (yes some costs would triple but others wouldn't), it's the fixed costs (i.e. those being paid for through NR) which are why TOC's need lots of support (see the difference between rural TOC's and those around London).

If we take SWR, of you want to make it so it can offer cheaper tickets you need to look at where you could run more trains on existing infrastructure with limited additional infrastructure.

In a post Crossrail 2 world, that means looking at Woking outwards, and what extra you could run along the WofE line (potentially not just to Exeter).

If you could run 4tph along it to Salisbury (or at least near to it) and maybe even 4tph to Yeovil (potentially giving an alternative route to Weymouth and a direct service north to Castle Cary with maybe a new station for Sparkford.

By increasing use of lightly used lines, even if the extra passenger numbers only just cover the variable costs over those sections up to (say) Andover, the extra income from the rest of the route would mean that the overall cost of the NR subsidy could be lower - which is where the industry needs it to be.
 

Mgameing123

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One of the things which would help with cheaper tickets is more passengers using the railways (yes I know what do you do first to get that to happen), however one thing which will help us running more trains over tracks which are under used.

There's a lot of fixed costs with running a railway which hardly change fi the track is having 1tph or 3tph (yes some costs would triple but others wouldn't), it's the fixed costs (i.e. those being paid for through NR) which are why TOC's need lots of support (see the difference between rural TOC's and those around London).

If we take SWR, of you want to make it so it can offer cheaper tickets you need to look at where you could run more trains on existing infrastructure with limited additional infrastructure.

In a post Crossrail 2 world, that means looking at Woking outwards, and what extra you could run along the WofE line (potentially not just to Exeter).

If you could run 4tph along it to Salisbury (or at least near to it) and maybe even 4tph to Yeovil (potentially giving an alternative route to Weymouth and a direct service north to Castle Cary with maybe a new station for Sparkford.

By increasing use of lightly used lines, even if the extra passenger numbers only just cover the variable costs over those sections up to (say) Andover, the extra income from the rest of the route would mean that the overall cost of the NR subsidy could be lower - which is where the industry needs it to be.
Why do need lower subsidies for the railway. It reminds me of that guy who suggested the LNWR service from Euston to Birmingham should be scrapped because it’s a waste of taxpayer money.

But yeah I don’t understand the obsession of getting the railway to pay for itself. It’s impossible to achieve that without ripping people off, reducing service quality or closing railway lines.

This is the reason why Beaching happened, why the IET’s are so terrible and why fare evasion is on the rise.

But I do agree that if capacity could be better used for other services then it should be used for other services.
 

Harpo

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4 track railways:
-Welwyn viaduct
-Shenfield to Witham or Colchester
-Wolverhampton to Coventry
-Didcot to Oxford
-Castlefields

Ely remodelling
Parkway to Llanwern/Newport using Severn Bridge
Double Coventry - Leamington
Newark flat junction abolition


……& several new stations dotted around Worcester, unconnected to each other or on the same routes like everything else in Worcester. (:lol:)
 

The Ham

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Why do need lower subsidies for the railway. It reminds me of that guy who suggested the LNWR service from Euston to Birmingham should be scrapped because it’s a waste of taxpayer money.

But yeah I don’t understand the obsession of getting the railway to pay for itself. It’s impossible to achieve that without ripping people off, reducing service quality or closing railway lines.

This is the reason why Beaching happened, why the IET’s are so terrible and why fare evasion is on the rise.

But I do agree that if capacity could be better used for other services then it should be used for other services.

The logic with cutting services is flawed, for every train you cut from given lines means:
a) fewer people willing to use the railways
b) even if there's not a drop in use on the other services it's still fewer people to cover the fixed costs (which is where the big costs of the railways are)

As I was saying, if you can run more services on lines which are otherwise underused, as long as they cover the TOC costs of running the service (excluding the NR costs for now) it actually reduces the subsidy cost per rail user. If such services cover a bit more than the TOC costs than total subsidies reduce.
 

Severnia333

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……& several new stations dotted around Worcester, unconnected to each other or on the same routes like everything else in Worcester. (:lol:)
I feel Worcester would be a prime candidate for an Exeter style setup by adding a few suburban stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

……& several new stations dotted around Worcester, unconnected to each other or on the same routes like everything else in Worcester. (:lol:)
I feel Worcester would be a prime candidate for an Exeter style setup by adding a few suburban stations.
 

AlexSJW

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It's pretty safe to assume that HS2 will be completed to Birmingham and provide some benefits for Manchester.

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?
  1. NPR
  2. WCML Stafford bypass via Hixon
I would say both are essential on national rail.

Local rail? Finish off Merseyrail.
Regional Rail? Get Skelmersdale onto Merseyrail and Northern.
 
Last edited:

Pigeon

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I feel Worcester would be a prime candidate for an Exeter style setup by adding a few suburban stations.

Henwick, Blackpole, Fernhill Heath, St Peters, Bransford Parkway...

And a continuous-flow cable car aerial connection between Foregate St and Shrub Hill.
 

76020

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Messages
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Another project that has bitten the dust is CARS, Croydon Area Resignalling Scheme
 

NCT

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Why do need lower subsidies for the railway. It reminds me of that guy who suggested the LNWR service from Euston to Birmingham should be scrapped because it’s a waste of taxpayer money.

But yeah I don’t understand the obsession of getting the railway to pay for itself. It’s impossible to achieve that without ripping people off, reducing service quality or closing railway lines.

This is the reason why Beaching happened, why the IET’s are so terrible and why fare evasion is on the rise.

But I do agree that if capacity could be better used for other services then it should be used for other services.

Increased rail subsidies would come out of your tax rise anyway.
 

The Ham

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Increased rail subsidies would come out of your tax rise anyway.

There's a difference between not reducing subsidies and increasing subsidies.

As I've said before, the big NR costs are generally associated with having a line open (inspections, signallers, etc.) if however a line has 1tph or 3tph (or 2tph to 6tph)I doubt that the costs for doing even double.

As such, the more services we can run over the existing tracks the more people that the big NR costs are split between.

That means that it's reasonable to ignore the NR subsidy to see if new services cover their direct running costs, if the assessment says that they do; then chances are the overall subsidy for running the railways will fall (as typically such assessments are likely to under estimate numbers of passengers).

Especially given that for most new services a non zero number of people will also travel further afield on the rail network (in small enough numbers not to increase costs by forcing extra capacity to be provided, but paying enough that it'll improve the financial situation of the railways.
 

NCT

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There's a difference between not reducing subsidies and increasing subsidies.

As I've said before, the big NR costs are generally associated with having a line open (inspections, signallers, etc.) if however a line has 1tph or 3tph (or 2tph to 6tph)I doubt that the costs for doing even double.

As such, the more services we can run over the existing tracks the more people that the big NR costs are split between.

That means that it's reasonable to ignore the NR subsidy to see if new services cover their direct running costs, if the assessment says that they do; then chances are the overall subsidy for running the railways will fall (as typically such assessments are likely to under estimate numbers of passengers).

Especially given that for most new services a non zero number of people will also travel further afield on the rail network (in small enough numbers not to increase costs by forcing extra capacity to be provided, but paying enough that it'll improve the financial situation of the railways.

The trains would need to generate a significant surplus. Running a long train via Andover to Southampton carrying a handful of low-yielding passengers will not generate a surplus.
 

The Ham

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The trains would need to generate a significant surplus. Running a long train via Andover to Southampton carrying a handful of low-yielding passengers will not generate a surplus.

Running long (8 cuddles in the off peak) stopping trains between Farnborough and Basingstoke are unlikely to generate a surplus, yet it's worth running the trains beyond Farnborough. In comparison, off peak is likely that such a service need only be 4 coaches long, even in the peaks (given the other additional 7tph through Woking) it's still not impossible that it could remain as a 4 coach train (few are going to use it over other services at places like Woking and Basingstoke).

Or how about, how many XC passengers between Plymouth and Aberdeen to justify a direct train between the two?

It very much depends on what the new trains allow and the calling pattern.

Remember this is in a post Crossrail 2 world and there is unlikely to be an alternative extra path to Southampton from London.

As we're not going to beat the via Winchester route to London (1:20), that's not what the service tries to do.

You'd potential run a service with the following calling pattern:

Times are
From London/from Southampton

Waterloo 00:00/02:21
Clapham Junction 00:12/02:09
Wimbledon 00:16/02:05
Woking 00:32/1:59
Farnborough Main 00:44/01:37
Fleet 00:48/01:33
Hook 00:58/01:23
Basingstoke 01:04/01:16
Overton 01:11/01:10
Whitchurch 01:16/01:05
Andover 1:20/01:01
Grately 1:32/00:49
Dean 1:51/00:30
Mottisfont & Dunbridge 1:56/00:25
Romsey 2:01/00:20
Redbridge 2:10/00:11
Millbrook 2:13/00:07
Southampton Central 2:21

Yes that's quite a bit slower than via Winchester, however when you look at the journey time from Romsey the fastest route takes 1:42 and requires a change and second fastest route takes 1:55(ish) minutes.

Depending on when the direct train runs in the hour no one's going to wait (say) 35 minutes to reduce their time traveling by 20 minutes (as they'll still get to Waterloo earlier) and even if it's within a couple of minutes of the other route, the fact it's direct will win for most people over the 6 minutes.

As such you'd likely get a decent percentage of the Romsey Waterloo market. Assuming a 450,000 per passenger count there's a fairly good chance that there's around 75,000 passengers a year, so around 15 an hour. That would mean that for most services you'd likely see around 5 passengers (even off peak) use such a direct service, probably more as it's likely that Romsey would see a noticeable uplift in passenger numbers from the extra number of station calls by services.

Where this impacts the via Winchester services is that during the peaks there would be fewer passengers from Romsey using them. Maybe only 10 people in a given service and whilst that may not impact crowding hardly at all, that's still the potential for 10 extra people from Southampton who otherwise may have felt that the services were too busy.

Although having said this, there's always been a lot of people who will drive to Southampton Airport Parkway to get to London, whilst it may not be faster, it would be much cheaper to get a train from Romsey than drive, park, and do by train. As such, the impact on via Winchester could be more pronounced than the above implies.

However the vast majority of passengers would be those between all the station pairings which become much more viable (with as the trains are now 2tph rather than 1tph) or those where the station pairings would have previously be difficult (for example Andover to Southampton by public transport is 2 hours, the direct service cuts this in half and isn't significantly slower than by road 1:01 vs 41 to drive or Fleet to Andover where current train is reasonable, however the direct train would be about 5 minutes faster, be direct and add a useable second service in the hour).

Until Andover these trains would be fairly well loaded and would be generating decent returns. being there, yes there's a question as to how useful such a service would be beyond there, however it's likely to be enough to justify running.

You'd likely only need 2 extra units to run the service beyond Andover off peak. Assuming, £200,000 per coach in lease costs and they account for 1/3 of service costs between Southampton and Andover each service would need to generate £880 in ticket sales*. Well just 5 people from Romsey to Waterloo off peak would likely generate £250 of that.

Yes, there's a fair chance that the extra in ticket sales wouldn't actually cover the benefit from running beyond Andover, however there's two things to note.

Firstly up, until Andover the income would most likely mean that it wouldn't actually require the rail subsidy to be higher than if the service didn't run at all. If the goal is to increase the number of people travelling without materially increasing the NR costs (which this service would achieve), the fact that a given service doesn't make quite as much overall profit as it could (again which is the case for this service) then it becomes a political question.

The question being, is it better to run this service which might cost the railways (say) £2 million from lost profits (for example running to Andover might generate £5 million in profits, whilst running to Southampton might reduce this to £3 million), but in doing so, potentially mean that the cost per passenger km falls compared to not running the service.

(There's then a follow up political question, given the wider benefits is this reduced profit value justified?)

Secondly, there's a fairly good chance that over the course of the day that the losses from running the off peak services were at least mostly covered by the total ticket sales from beyond Andover. This is important, as to run it as a peak hour only service would require leasing the same number of coaches as running it all day. This means that the extra costs for the off peak services are very much reduced compared to the above.

That's before you consider that any one of those stations (or a new station on an existing line which could be served by this service) could see significant population growth over the next 20 years and so make the above points mute as then the train service could be sensible anyway.

*£200,000 per coach for 4 coaches, tripled is £4.8 million. Split over 364 days with 15 hour days is £879.12.
 

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