Should have Network Southeast when they electrified the Hastings line, also electrified other lines?

[martin butler]

When the Hastings line was electrified, why were the rest of the unelectrified lines such as Ore to Ashford also done, to eliminate the few pockets left of unelectrified lines in the South east,

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. Uckfield in particular.

All down to Government funding though.

 

[zwk500]

Money. Hastings electrification didn't have enough money to renew the Tunbridge Wells West connection, let alone electrify anything else.

In theory, it'd be wonderful to have a 100% electrified network, but some lines are always going to be quieter than others and justifying significant capital outlay for hourly trains is hard to do.

 

[martin butler]

Yes. Uckfield in particular.

All down to Government funding though.

To me, Futher electrification should have also included the Ore to Ashford line, and possibly west of England to Salisbury, or even as far as Exeter, imagine 444'S or even 442's operating west of england services, In Southern Railway days, there was plans to extend sparks to Exeter.

 

[pdeaves]

To me, Futher electrification should have also included the Ore to Ashford line, and possibly west of England to Salisbury, or even as far as Exeter, imagine 444'S or even 442's operating west of england services, In Southern Railway days, there was plans to extend sparks to Exeter.

Yes, but as others have suggested, when there's a limited pot of money it has to be spent where it will have best use. Someone somewhere did the analysis and determined that what they spent the money on was better value than what they didn't spend it on.

 

[zwk500]

To me, Futher electrification should have also included the Ore to Ashford line, and possibly west of England to Salisbury, or even as far as Exeter, imagine 444'S or even 442's operating west of england services, In Southern Railway days, there was plans to extend sparks to Exeter.

There's "plans" and then there's "Plans".

Most strategy documents probably list Uckfield as a possible/potential electrification project. But so far nobody has got as far as actually getting approval to actually do it.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, they did move onto other lines - its just that these decisions weren't based on geography.

East Grinstead was the year before, Weymouth the year after, the Fareham lines the year after that.

 

[The exile]

Money. Hastings electrification didn't have enough money to renew the Tunbridge Wells West connection, let alone electrify anything else.

In theory, it'd be wonderful to have a 100% electrified network, but some lines are always going to be quieter than others and justifying significant capital outlay for hourly trains is hard to do.

Hastings electrification was triggered by the need to replace life-expired stock, which in turn required a lot of engineering work to single the tunnels. Not electrifying would have needed new-build stock, whereas electrifying meant surplus emus could be used. Had the early 90s downturn not happened and privatisation been later, no doubt Uckfield and Marshlink and maybe an extension at least to Salisbury would have followed on from the Hampshire lines.

 

[zwk500]

Hastings electrification was triggered by the need to replace life-expired stock, which in turn required a lot of engineering work to single the tunnels. Not electrifying would have needed new-build stock, whereas electrifying meant surplus emus could be used. Had the early 90s downturn not happened and privatisation been later, no doubt Uckfield and Marshlink and maybe an extension at least to Salisbury would have followed on from the Hampshire lines.

You say no doubt but Uckfield was rationalised in 1990. Given East Grinstead had been electrified in 1985-87, doesn't sound like they were planning to invest in the Uckfield line even before 1992...

It does feel like there is a very rose-tinted perspective of the "old railway" and it's strategic intentions sometimes.

 

[bramling]

You say no doubt but Uckfield was rationalised in 1990. Given East Grinstead had been electrified in 1985-87, doesn't sound like they were planning to invest in the Uckfield line even before 1992...

It does feel like there is a very rose-tinted perspective of the "old railway" and it's strategic intentions sometimes.

If one thinks back to Uckfield at the time, BR had enough trouble finding the money just to keep the track safe, let alone electrifying.

The time to do these two lines would probably have been at the point where the 205/207 fleet came up for renewal.

 

[The exile]

The time to do these two lines would probably have been at the point where the 205/207 fleet came up for renewal.

That’s exactly my point - especially if existing stock could have been used. However, there woukd only have been surplus stock due to the downturn, which needed not to happen to continue the growth which might have triggered electrification. A bit of a Catch 22.

 

[zwk500]

That’s exactly my point - especially if existing stock could have been used. However, there woukd only have been surplus stock due to the downturn, which needed not to happen to continue the growth which might have triggered electrification. A bit of a Catch 22.

Worth considering just how relatively little used the line was in the late 90s/early 200s:
Chart from https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=UCK

 

[bramling]

Worth considering just how relatively little used the line was in the late 90s/early 200s:
Chart from https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=UCK
View attachment 201040

That has to be one of the most curious usage patterns one is ever likely to find.

Presumably the upturn from 2002ish will be associated with the new trains, and presumably also the more regular through trains to London. However assuming a similar pattern for the whole line, no doubt a good proportion of this will be railheading where people have switched from other nearby locations - places like Lewes, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Etchingham, Stonegate, Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead to name but a few. Then a considerable amount of investment to cater for this (lengthened platforms, car park expansions and extra trains) to suddenly find all these people end up working from home, which clearly hasn’t recovered.

Is it also correct that the Uckfield line has tended to have cheaper fares than the adjacent routes?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Hastings electrification was triggered by the need to replace life-expired stock, which in turn required a lot of engineering work to single the tunnels. Not electrifying would have needed new-build stock, whereas electrifying meant surplus emus could be used. Had the early 90s downturn not happened and privatisation been later, no doubt Uckfield and Marshlink and maybe an extension at least to Salisbury would have followed on from the Hampshire lines.

Chris Green in his book 'NSE Story' (OPC 2014) states that third-rail electrification for Ashford - Ore, Hurst Green - Uckfield and Reading - Redhill (missing bits) were pencilled in for 1994 and Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury for 1995. But as you say the recession and then privatisation came along. A Weymouth type 'REP' solution for Exeter would have been intriguing.

 

[cle]

Chris Green in his book 'NSE Story' (OPC 2014) states that third-rail electrification for Ashford - Ore, Hurst Green - Uckfield and Reading - Redhill (missing bits) were pencilled in for 1994 and Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury for 1995. But as you say the recession and then privatisation came along. A Weymouth type 'REP' solution for Exeter would have been intriguing.

That is interesting. I know it's seemingly taboo today, but it would have been great to see those gaps filled.

Salisbury could have a much better service - and indeed per Sundays, possibly a Reading one too. The Reading-Basingstoke line really needs line speed and signal upgrades, it's so slow and could be much better used.

 

[The exile]

Chris Green in his book 'NSE Story' (OPC 2014) states that third-rail electrification for Ashford - Ore, Hurst Green - Uckfield and Reading - Redhill (missing bits) were pencilled in for 1994 and Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury for 1995. But as you say the recession and then privatisation came along. A Weymouth type 'REP' solution for Exeter would have been intriguing.

New batch of 442-clones split between a third rail version and a DMU. 10 cars to Salisbury with the DMU leading and continuing on to Exeter?

 

[zwk500]

That has to be one of the most curious usage patterns one is ever likely to find.

Presumably the upturn from 2002ish will be associated with the new trains, and presumably also the more regular through trains to London. However assuming a similar pattern for the whole line, no doubt a good proportion of this will be railheading where people have switched from other nearby locations - places like Lewes, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Etchingham, Stonegate, Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead to name but a few. Then a considerable amount of investment to cater for this (lengthened platforms, car park expansions and extra trains) to suddenly find all these people end up working from home, which clearly hasn’t recovered.

Is it also correct that the Uckfield line has tended to have cheaper fares than the adjacent routes?

The website linked attributes it primarily to the re-establishment of direct trains to London. However, railheading is certainly very common for this line, and many documents have referenced the fact this causes parking issues at the stations and crowding issues.

Also of note is that the towns along the route have grown substantially in size over this period, so the potential customer base has increased as well from what it was in the 90s. This is partly a self-supporting cycle, as more demand means more services, which increases attractiveness so more houses, which people who work in London can now look at as a viable option, so more demand, ....

The Reading-Basingstoke line really needs line speed and signal upgrades, it's so slow and could be much better used.

Reading-Basingstoke today would be far better electrified on OHLE, not third rail. It's already operated by GWR out of Reading Depot, and operates into a bay at Basingstoke so could be kept electrically separate (or minimum interface). In the mid-90s with different allocation of operations and the nearest OLE being at Heathrow Airport Jn, might have been a different calculation. But today even disregarding the safety regulations around third rail, OLE is the obvious choice (IMO OLE for this line would trump BEMUs due to the potential for Bi- or Tri-mode freight haulage).

 

[Snow1964]

It's hard nowadays to comprehend where BR was in the early 1980s, the economy had seen a downturn following winter of discontent, and with a 2 year timetable lag BR cut services in 1982.

Cutting services freed up some EMUs, but back in 1982 there was also a looming asbestos deadline (1987) and trains either had to be stripped or scrapped. From memory some (might have been all) of the Hastings line DEMUs had asbestos.

It was deemed cheaper to single track the tunnels (one had been done few years before), put in a basic electrification and use spare 4VEPs from the 1982 cuts, than strip and refurbish the DEMUs.

The electrification wasn't mainline standard, from memory south of Tunbridge Wells the power was restricted to 8car units to save capital costs. I think some power upgrades happened around 15-20 years later when the newer and more powerful 375s took over from the 4VEPs

Really the economics of Hastings direct line were dominated by replacing stock with asbestos, and the electrification was a practical alternative cost wise, not because it was upgrade driven.

The cost of upgrading Tunbridge Wells West line didn't pass and that got closed instead

 

[The exile]

But today even disregarding the safety regulations around third rail, OLE is the obvious choice (IMO OLE for this line would trump BEMUs due to the potential for Bi- or Tri-mode freight haulage).

OLE into the bay at Basingstoke but with a short extension of 3rd rail to allow the changeover for through trains to be on the fly and avoid having to put up knitting over the entire station.

 

[zwk500]

OLE into the bay at Basingstoke but with a short extension of 3rd rail to allow the changeover for through trains to be on the fly and avoid having to put up knitting over the entire station.

If somebody's got a burning desire to use the 92s, yes.

Otherwise for 93s, 99s, and anything XC might use, 3rd rail is irrelevant.

 

[yorksrob]

It's hard nowadays to comprehend where BR was in the early 1980s, the economy had seen a downturn following winter of discontent, and with a 2 year timetable lag BR cut services in 1982.

Cutting services freed up some EMUs, but back in 1982 there was also a looming asbestos deadline (1987) and trains either had to be stripped or scrapped. From memory some (might have been all) of the Hastings line DEMUs had asbestos.

It was deemed cheaper to single track the tunnels (one had been done few years before), put in a basic electrification and use spare 4VEPs from the 1982 cuts, than strip and refurbish the DEMUs.

The electrification wasn't mainline standard, from memory south of Tunbridge Wells the power was restricted to 8car units to save capital costs. I think some power upgrades happened around 15-20 years later when the newer and more powerful 375s took over from the 4VEPs

Really the economics of Hastings direct line were dominated by replacing stock with asbestos, and the electrification was a practical alternative cost wise, not because it was upgrade driven.

The cost of upgrading Tunbridge Wells West line didn't pass and that got closed instead

I seem to recall the Tunbridge Wells - Hastings line was mainly CEP's in the late 80's/early 90's.

I guess that with the other electrifications, there was no shortage of thumpers to tide the remainder of diesel lines over (although they must have scrapped a lot as they had shortages of them in the 90's).

 

[HSTEd]

We'd be in a much better shape had NSE got in more electrification, but the capital was not available.

Third rail to Exeter would leave us in a much better place than we are now, for one thing. But as noted, no money.

 

[martin butler]

We'd be in a much better shape had NSE got in more electrification, but the capital was not available.

Third rail to Exeter would leave us in a much better place than we are now, for one thing. But as noted, no money.

Not just that, but it would have changed train services certainly in my neck of the woods, Ore to Ashford would probably been an extension to the existing services, offering direct services to and from London, either via Lewes, or Tunbridge wells,

If electrification had reached Exeter, again, it would have meant better services, possibly faster because electric trains can accelerate faster, and if it had meant more 442's that would have been an upgrade over the MK2's being used at the time.

 

[Djgr]

It's hard nowadays to comprehend where BR was in the early 1980s, the economy had seen a downturn following winter of discontent,

The downturn in the economy in the early 1980s was definitely not caused by the winter of discontent.

 

[HSTEd]

Not just that, but it would have changed train services certainly in my neck of the woods, Ore to Ashford would probably been an extension to the existing services, offering direct services to and from London, either via Lewes, or Tunbridge wells,

If electrification had reached Exeter, again, it would have meant better services, possibly faster because electric trains can accelerate faster, and if it had meant more 442's that would have been an upgrade over the MK2's being used at the time.

I don't think there would be enough 4REPs to make enough 442s to replace all the Class 50 hauled sets.
I think you'd probably end up with a mix of 442s and Gatwick Express style sets with MLVs (or a converted other EMU vehicle), Mark 2s and Class 73s.

Probably easily beats a Class 50 on performance regardless though!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Having been in Kent at the time I am well aware of the desperate financial state that BR was in at the time. There was simply no spare capital for 'nice to haves'. The ECML electrification north of Hitchin was the only big ticket item in hand. There was a growing bow wave of rolling stock renewal nationally as Modernisation Plan DMUs were reaching the end of their economic lives and many of them were riddled with asbestos.
At the same time demand on many South East commuter lines was declining. The reasons varied but in Kent the gradual extension of the M2 and M20 were factors. In parts of Northern Kent commuter coaches were posing a huge challenge. I was horrified to do a census from a lay-by on the A2. No fewer than 30 well-filled coaches sped by from the Medway Towns. That was more than two x 12-CEPs worth of seats for a start. New estates had grown up close to the motorway and car parking at the Medway stations (even Rainham) was very limited. Commuters had realised that an alternative to the train that guaranteed a seat, took no longer door-to-door and was cheaper than the train was literally on their doorsteps.
Once the 4-CEP refurbishment programme was complete the number of available units had increased and it had been possible to transfer a few 'spares' to other divisions. The Sheerness branch and the Medway Valley had soaked up another five diagrams (releasing EPB or HAP units). Meanwhile traditional boat train loads were decreasing and some sets could be released from this traffic. One way and another it was possible to 'find' 20 'spare' CEPs that could cover Hastings with no need for a new maintenance depot because they could still be looked after at Ramsgate or in London.
It was necessary to modify some 2-EPBs by giving them full walk-through saloons (but no internal gangway) and some minor changes to give the guard access to starting bells and emergency equipment in either vehicle. These could cover the Sheerness and Medway Valley lines on a quasi-pay train basis with the guard swapping between vehicles at stations.
This was all sponsored by the nascent London & South East Sector before Network South East as such became a thing. The new Hastings service was duly launched with managers elsewhere in Kent having to cope with all the complaints from passengers whose services had been reduced to 8-car; switched from comfy CEP to to high-density 'cattle truck' VEP and so on; or found their train through to Canterbury East and Dover Priory was now cluttered with luggage-toting ferry passengers alongside the 'brolly-and-briefcase' brigade.
This was all quite unsentimental with no tears shed at HQ for the loss of the Tunbridge Wells-Eridge line and other concurrent rationalisations such as the closure of smaller staff depots such as Tunbridge Wells West, Maidstone West and Strood (guards).
Ashford-Ore? No chance in that era.

 

[Helvellyn]

Chris Green in his book 'NSE Story' (OPC 2014) states that third-rail electrification for Ashford - Ore, Hurst Green - Uckfield and Reading - Redhill (missing bits) were pencilled in for 1994 and Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury for 1995. But as you say the recession and then privatisation came along. A Weymouth type 'REP' solution for Exeter would have been intriguing.

Exeter didn't go hourly until after the 2007 SWT franchise award. However, if the route had remained with the SR in the 1960s rather than move to the WR you have to wonder if a case could have been made to build more REPs/TCs, convert more 33/1s, and electrify to Salisbury.

In such a world, when the 442s were ordered, they could have still been push-pull operated past Salisbury even if electrification further West wasn't done. But it would have made Redbridge/Eastleigh - Romsey - Salisbury third rail electrification easier to justify.

 

[JohnofWessex]

And in other news India has electrified 99.4% of its broad gauge network

 

[eldomtom2]

Chris Green in his book 'NSE Story' (OPC 2014) states that third-rail electrification for Ashford - Ore, Hurst Green - Uckfield and Reading - Redhill (missing bits) were pencilled in for 1994 and Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury for 1995. But as you say the recession and then privatisation came along. A Weymouth type 'REP' solution for Exeter would have been intriguing.

Personally I suspect privatisation was the larger cause here. For all the talk of BR's financial woes, they always managed to get something electrified each year with the exception of 1981 and 1982 - it was clearly a priority for capital expenditure. Come privatisation this dropped off dramatically - once the last of the BR-initated schemes completed in 1995 there was pretty much nothing for a decade and a half, with most years seeing no new electrification at all.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Chris Green in his book 'NSE Story' (OPC 2014) states that third-rail electrification for Ashford - Ore, Hurst Green - Uckfield and Reading - Redhill (missing bits) were pencilled in for 1994 and Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury for 1995. But as you say the recession and then privatisation came along. A Weymouth type 'REP' solution for Exeter would have been intriguing.

CG had, of course, left Network SouthEast for InterCity by then. It was undoubtedly an initial hope in 1986 that NSE could be all-electric but the GW and Chiltern lines made that unrealistic. After 1991 it could also be decided by BRHQ to just take some of the existing Class 158 order at Regional Railways and give them to NSE for the Exeter route. So, a bit like Hastings, a case of "Look, no new rolling stock required". Meanwhile in Scotland I was running bulging 2-car Class 158s to Aberdeen and Inverness where demand hadn't really shrunk like it had in the wake of the financial crisis in England. (For example, the oil industry around Aberdeen was doing quite strongly at the time.)

What might have seemed possible with third rails in 1986 was no longer feasible after the Electricity at Work Regulations came fully into effect during 1990. The continuing Channel Tunnel related works only survived through to 1994 because they had been committed before that date.

In such a world, when the 442s were ordered, they could have still been push-pull operated past Salisbury even if electrification further West wasn't done. But it would have made Redbridge/Eastleigh - Romsey - Salisbury third rail electrification easier to justify.

Why would NSE be interested in electrifying part of a longer Regional Railways service (Bristol-Salisbury-Southampton-Portsmouth) or what was then effectively a freight-only line (Romsey-Eastleigh) if they couldn't even justify their own lines?