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222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

aaronspence

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Depends a lot on where you sit. Generally the sliding vestibule doors don’t work so there’s an awful lot of squeaking and banging to be heard if you’re anywhere near the end of a carriage. Something atmospheric to me but not desirable to a regular traveller. Plus the power cars aren’t exactly quiet either. I can see how a Turbostar would be deemed quieter.

Ill agree the gangway squeaks are bad, But the amount of times I've not even realised we've pulled out of the station in a HST, only noticed by the movement is high, its so silent inside. You absolutely know your on the way in a 170 or 158.
 
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Sparks807Evo

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Could there be problems in the future with the 222's when working the Highland main line, are they going to be up for the task on this route?
They will be fine - after an overhaul and some TLC. They are perfectly good units with plenty of power and reliability had been decent before the drop off at EMR (for reasons already well documented).
 

Amos390

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Just seen the RAIL article on the 222s going to SR, they will be undergoing a complete interior overhaul, including the engines, and fitting them with start/stop technology. Hopefully this means the issues experienced at the moment won’t be offloaded to SR, but we’ll have to wait and see.
 

Clansman

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Could there be problems in the future with the 222's when working the Highland main line, are they going to be up for the task on this route?
Mechanically fine, but capacity will be a major problem especially in the luggage department. Once the refurbishment is complete they are almost certainly going to be the most capacity inefficient units per-metre of length of any non-sleeper passenger carrying train in the UK in terms of seats to luggage capacity.

I dread to think what the Inverness services are going to look like. If the number of 222s can't allow for more 158s or 170s to double up on Inverness services or the busiest of the Aberdeen services, then ScotRail is going to have major problems on their hands. The HSTs only just about cut it from a capacity point of view for your average I7C service but not much more, as many will atest to with frequent full and standings occuring daily on certain services even on a 5-car set.

The 222s obviously are a stopgap and so compromises - be it the good (fuel cost savings and enhanced reliability), the bad (sinking £80m into the refurbishment), the ugly (useless for luggage capacity without capacity sacrifice and less seats per carriage than HSTs across fixed 5-car formation proposed) - are required given the state of the HSTs.

However, if this is going to be like-for-like replacement on the number of I7C diagrams without any ability to free up existing DMUs for the sole purpose of doubling up DMUs on I7C routes, then it simply leaves a lot to be desired for the money that is being ploughed in.

This is clearly the least-worst option of a pretty poor or non existent list of alternatives, but it will be a tough pill to swallow none-the-less if DMUs can't be freed up enough to allow for doubling.
 
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fgwrich

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Ill agree the gangway squeaks are bad, But the amount of times I've not even realised we've pulled out of the station in a HST, only noticed by the movement is high, its so silent inside. You absolutely know your on the way in a 170 or 158.
I’ve waited a while to post about the Gangway Squeaks but I’ll say this, they only come about due to lack of maintenance. It is the rubber bushes between the gangway and coupler (HST corridors effectively float on top of the Alliance coupler head with the base connected to the coupler bar) which overtime wear out causing the creaking and groaning. If they were regularly greased and or replaced, then they wouldn’t be an issue. I’ll accept there’s a lot of them for anyone to maintain but it’s a simple fix.
 

matchmaker

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Thought Pitlochry had some of the longest platforms on the HML.

Newtonmore and one side of Dalwhinnie on the other hand...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


If they do indeed reduce the seating density, at best Standard Class would be similar to a 2+4 HST, but will likely be slightly less.

The HML used to have HST differentials but they were removed and the Kingussie to Kincraig section downgraded to 90mph from 100 in around 1992/93 as a cost saving measure.

The 100mph section was restored in about 2002 and SP differentials were introduced in 2013.

Essentially, what I'm driving at, is that they could implement HST differentials again or at least give the 222s dispensation to use the SP ones - there's precedent on the route.
The useable platform length at Pitlochry will however have been reduced by the resignalling as at least one of the starters has been moved further into the platform.
 

Snow1964

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More kW/t than a 170, less kW/t than a 2+4 and 2+5 HST. (Says AI).
Think AI has confused the formation.

The HSTs have 2 x 2250 HP = 4500HP, but power cars weight about 70t each, and coaches about 36t, so 2+5 set is about 320t

The 222s carriages are about 10t heavier each as each vehicle has a 750HP engine, a 5car has 3750HP so 5car set is around 230t, say 90t less

Exact weights depend on configuration and equipment fitted.
 

Russel

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With the latest announcement on the 222s, the irony is Transport Scotland wrote the 2014 invitation to tender to effectively rule out 22x and 170s from intercity ScotRail services !

A lot has happened in the interviening 12 years.
 

hexagon789

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Think AI has confused the formation.

The HSTs have 2 x 2250 HP = 4500HP, but power cars weight about 70t each, and coaches about 36t, so 2+5 set is about 320t

The 222s carriages are about 10t heavier each as each vehicle has a 750HP engine, a 5car has 3750HP so 5car set is around 230t, say 90t less

Exact weights depend on configuration and equipment fitted.
HST power cars have an output of 1868hp continuous traction motor output, 1770hp continuous at rail output.

222s have 275kW maximum, 235kW continuous motor output.

Recorded data, which I referred to some posts back, shows that 222 wins to 60mph but a 2+4 HST wins slightly at higher speeds.

A 2+5 HST is near identical.
 

Davester50

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A lot has happened in the interviening 12 years.
Or more likely, Transport Scotland made a mess of the bids, and realism has kicked in.
The cutbacks of nice to have but expensive to operate is a good indication across both the ScotRail and Sleeper franchises.
 

317 forever

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I wonder whether the take-up of 222s by Lumo and ScotRail means that, with the potential exception of some centre cars, they will all be spoken for once redundant from EMR?
 

JonathanH

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With the latest announcement on the 222s, the irony is Transport Scotland wrote the 2014 invitation to tender to effectively rule out 22x and 170s from intercity ScotRail services !
A lot has happened in the interviening 12 years.
That was almost certainly to ensure that the bidders didn't leave EMR without rolling stock for their services. That shouldn't be the case now with 810s entering service.
 

swt_passenger

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I wonder whether the take-up of 222s by Lumo and ScotRail means that, with the potential exception of some centre cars, they will all be spoken for once redundant from EMR?
Yes, the whole fleet will be used except for three non-driving cars. It’s been discussed in a few places already in this thread. e.g. post #32.
 

ld0595

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I dread to think what the Inverness services are going to look like. If the number of 222s can't allow for more 158s or 170s to double up on Inverness services or the busiest of the Aberdeen services, then ScotRail is going to have major problems on their hands. The HSTs only just about cut it from a capacity point of view for your average I7C service but not much more, as many will atest to with frequent full and standings occuring daily on certain services even on a 5-car set.
Hopefully we'll eventually see hourly services between Perth and Inverness which would alleviate that. (Thought that was planned at some point soon anyway? I'd imagine not at the moment given current HST availability.)
 

tfw756rider

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I wonder whether the take-up of 222s by Lumo and ScotRail means that, with the potential exception of some centre cars, they will all be spoken for once redundant from EMR?
Yes, the whole fleet will be used except for three non-driving cars. It’s been discussed in a few places already in this thread. e.g. post #32.
post #32
 

louis97

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The useable platform length at Pitlochry will however have been reduced by the resignalling as at least one of the starters has been moved further into the platform.
Long trains (800s and the sleeper) go past the starting signal and use the whole platform.
 

380101

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Mechanically fine, but capacity will be a major problem especially in the luggage department. Once the refurbishment is complete they are almost certainly going to be the most capacity inefficient units per-metre of length of any non-sleeper passenger carrying train in the UK in terms of seats to luggage capacity.

I dread to think what the Inverness services are going to look like. If the number of 222s can't allow for more 158s or 170s to double up on Inverness services or the busiest of the Aberdeen services, then ScotRail is going to have major problems on their hands. The HSTs only just about cut it from a capacity point of view for your average I7C service but not much more, as many will atest to with frequent full and standings occuring daily on certain services even on a 5-car set.

The 222s obviously are a stopgap and so compromises - be it the good (fuel cost savings and enhanced reliability), the bad (sinking £80m into the refurbishment), the ugly (useless for luggage capacity without capacity sacrifice and less seats per carriage than HSTs across fixed 5-car formation proposed) - are required given the state of the HSTs.

However, if this is going to be like-for-like replacement on the number of I7C diagrams without any ability to free up existing DMUs for the sole purpose of doubling up DMUs on I7C routes, then it simply leaves a lot to be desired for the money that is being ploughed in.

This is clearly the least-worst option of a pretty poor or non existent list of alternatives, but it will be a tough pill to swallow none-the-less if DMUs can't be freed up enough to allow for doubling.

Expect a full timetable change for the intercity services once the 222s are here. Expectation is that the better reliability/availability of them will allow 170/158s to be utilised on more local/stopping services on the intercity routes which should hopefully alleviate the overcrowding on some of the current intercity services.
 

Thepinkpig73

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The useable platform length at Pitlochry will however have been reduced by the resignalling as at least one of the starters has been moved further into the platform.
5+2 HSTs and 6 car 170s can fit at Pitlcohry without going past the signal, it’s only the sleeper and LNER that need the full platform length.
 

Altnashin

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Hopefully we'll eventually see hourly services between Perth and Inverness which would alleviate that. (Thought that was planned at some point soon anyway? I'd imagine not at the moment given current HST availability.)
Can’t see that happening anytime soon, hourly Tain and hourly Aberdeen services were discussed, along with 90mph sections between Inverness and Elgin, also 40mph points starting with Muir of Ord on The Far North Line, I really can’t see speed changes on The HML being made for the 222’s but that’s all for another thread.
 

Snow1964

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Will they bother to brand those 3 carriages or will they just be Christmas trees?
Not a lot of point in refurbishing unused vehicles, and press release specifically said 22 x 5car, not higher number of vehicles.

There is lot of logic in having spare bogies, engines, and other parts, so likely they will be stripped to empty shells. But will have to wait an see.
 

route101

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Only one train per day each direction does the circular service now, every other service now continues to Leven on both sides, or Perth on the coastal side. Don't know if they'd clear 222's for Leven.
Are any HSTs booked on Fife services?
 

Class83

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Good news. As much as I like the HSTs, they are now getting far too old.

Even though the livery is being standardised, hopefully the “InterCity” branding is retained (minus the “7”, since Dunfermline decided to go and complicate matters).

Maybe more for speculative discussion, but it’s a pity the electrics in the mk3s will make them largely redundant without 43s. The power doors and interior refurbs are quite good (albeit they might be hiding a multitude sins and rust).

That would only work if they started running “InterCity” services to Dunfermline, which I can’t see happening any time soon!

I've already seen posts on

Might be good PR to send one of the Aberdeen or Inverness services this way?
Realistically the easiest solution is to reinstate the Inverkeithing stops and brand it as serving Dunfermline (e.g. Glenrothes with Thornton) as it's part of the same urban area anyway and is set up for Intercity Services with LNER services (and previously Scotrail) calling there. The inland side of the Fife Circle is a bit longer than the costal side so there would be a time penalty to going that way, though maybe only 5 minutes https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/74350/download?inline comparing southbound departures from Markinch at 0632 and 0647, inland is 41 mins with 8 stops, coast is 33 mins with 5 stops, InterCity would be limited stop either way.

Edit: There are a couple of random services which give a clue 1943 southbound from Ladybank takes 40 mins from there to Inverkeithing with 1 stop at Dunfermline, (doesn't call at Markinch, but generally that section is 8 mins) so 32 mins from Markinch to Inverkeithing with 1 stop. There are more services Markinch to Inverkeithing with one stop at Kirkcaldy timed at 26 minutes, so looks like it's 6 mins longer to go inland v coast.
 
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Exactly.

Diesel-mechanical (engine-gearbox) is classes 10x/11x/12x and [14x as built] for the old SCG 4-speed box, then 172, NI C4K and 195/196/197 (edit - and MPV) use a modern ZF 6-speed box.

Diesel-hydraulic (engine-hydraulic transmission) is classes [14x re-engineered], 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 165, 166, 168, 170, 171, 175 and NI C3K for the 2-speed Voith hydraulic, and 180 and 185 for the 3-speed Voith hydraulic. Was unusually also used by locomotives of classes 35, 41/42/43 (Warship) and 52.

Diesel-electric (engine-generator-traction motors) is classes 20x and then 220, 221, 222, 230 (London Northwestern, as was) and 231. Also used by the vast majority of diesel locomotives (including the HST power cars), the "diesel mode" of bi/tri-mode locomotives, and the "diesel mode" of bi/tri-mode units (230 Transport for Wales, 755, 756, 769, 800, [801 "rescue engine"], 802, 805 and 810 - edit - and 820 and 897).

=========================

The acronyms for all three types are:

DMMU - Diesel-Mechanical Multiple Unit
DHMU - Diesel-Hydraulic Multiple Unit
DEMU - Diesel-Electric Multiple Unit

and then DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) includes all three.

=========================

Sometimes though, you'll hear/see (as indeed you did) DMU ("diesel") and DEMU ("diesel-electric").

In this case, DMU is [DMMU and/or DHMU] and DEMU is, well, DEMU.

This latter way does align with the TOPS class number ranges, as [DMMU and DHMU] ("DMU") are 1xx, then DEMU is 2xx.
That’s every diesel class in the UK you listed, Though you actually missed out a prototype Class 210 DEMU from the 1980s.
A bit of interruption to the Class 222 to explain how UK diesel units work. Don’t we all learn something new everyday.
 
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SteveP29

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I was returning to Edinburgh from Center Parcs at Penrith yesterday and an empty unit, no interior lights on and in EMT passed us at speed at Penrith station.

I presume this is one of the potentially first units to move up here for refurb?
 

John Bishop

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I was returning to Edinburgh from Center Parcs at Penrith yesterday and an empty unit, no interior lights on and in EMT passed us at speed at Penrith station.

I presume this is one of the potentially first units to move up here for refurb?
That will be a LUMO training set.
 

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