How likely is my appeal (misinformed by LNER staff)

[kneal1]

Our original booked return service with Grand Central (10:00 departure to Sunderland) was cancelled, and we received no prior communication advising us on what to do next, I understand this is none of your concern at this moment.

Due to our ticket being cancelled, we went to London King’s Cross and spoke directly with an LNER member of staff for guidance. We were explicitly advised that we could board the 09:33 LNER service to York and then make onward connections to Sunderland. To ensure this was correct, we also spoke with a second LNER staff member at the ticket gates, who confirmed that this route was valid and allowed us through. We boarded the train at around 9:30am.

However, once onboard the train, we were informed by the ticket inspector that our tickets were not valid. We were then issued penalty fares of £50 each. He advised that he made 3x announcements informing everyone on board that the tickets where not valid, these were made at 15/10/5 min intervals before departure, we must of either missed the announcement or boarding as it was made, we were also in a state of panic as we had just made the train before it left. The lady Infront also had the exact same story as us. When issuing the fine he also advised that he had fined 5x other passengers so far, with the same original tickets as us. He also advised, when he made the announcement 20+ people got of the train. This indicates a pattern, if 25+ people all board the same train, this shows that multiple people likely spoke to LNER staff members (as we did) & advised that our ticket was valid for travel. Before we boarded the train, we spoke to a LNER staff who was standing outside & asked what seats we're able to sit in as we didn't have any assigned to us as we our original 10:00 train to Sunderland was cancelled. (I didn't show him my ticket so I don't hold him to fault for not knowing my ticket wasn't valid) However, both LNER staff members I spoke to previously, I had showed my ticket, the first one even went as far as showing me the itinerary for my travel home as I now had 2x changes when my original ticket was direct.

I'd also like to note that we complied with the ticket inspector, gave our details etc. The lady in front did not, she refused to give details & as a result the ticket inspector advised BTP would be waiting for her at the station (no BTP was there at the station) & she walked away with no penalty, why should we be handed a fine when cooperating with the ticket inspector & she gets away with no penalty for refusing to collaborate.

I would like to highlight the following key points:

• We made every reasonable effort to follow the correct process after our train was cancelled.
• We relied entirely on the guidance of three official LNER staff members before boarding the train.
• There was clear widespread confusion, as a large number of passengers (approximately 20+) were also affected and left the train after similar announcements, indicating that multiple customers had been given the same incorrect advice.
• At no point did we attempt to avoid payment or travel without a valid ticket; we acted in good faith based on official instructions.

Had we been correctly advised, we would have taken the 10:33 service instead and avoided this situation entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First of all you were not issued with Penalty Fares as LNER does not issue these. Can you please post a picture of what you did actually receive, with any reference numbers and other personal details obscured, so we can advise?

 

[kneal1]

First of all you were not issued with Penalty Fares as LNER does not issue these. Can you please post a picture of what you did actually receive, with any reference numbers and other personal details obscured, so we can advise?

Apologies, incorrect terminology used.

It was an UFN (unpaid fares notice) I have 28 days to dispute as I have wrote out above or pay the fare.

It is for £100 (2x £50 tickets) I wouldn't of been as bothered, but my original tickets cost about £300 which seems to be way over the avg price of the journey.

 

[transportphoto]

It is for £100 (2x £50 tickets) I wouldn't of been as bothered, but my original tickets cost about £300 which seems to be way over the avg price of the journey.

Whilst there are no regulations (statutory instruments) pertaining to the issuance of an unpaid fares notice as you would find for a penalty fare - I’m intrigued by the figure of £50. Can you upload an anonymised photograph?

Assuming the UPFN is for Kings Cross to York, the £50 figure seems to have been plucked from thin air.

 

[357]

no BTP was there at the station

No surprise there then.

 

[Haywain]

Before you challenge the Unpaid Fare Notices, it's worth considering that you will most likely be entitled to a refund if your original and more expensive tickets. We need to know more about your original journey (was it actually to Sunderland?) and tickets held in order to provide the high quality of advice that the forum is known for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==

Assuming the UPFN is for Kings Cross to York, the £50 figure seems to have been plucked from thin air.

Nothing really hangs on that, other than the OP perhaps getting a better deal than they should have done.

 

[kneal1]

Before you challenge the Unpaid Fare Notices, it's worth considering that you will most likely be entitled to a refund if your original and more expensive tickets. We need to know more about your original journey (was it actually to Sunderland?) and tickets held in order to provide the high quality of advice that the forum is known for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==


Nothing really hangs on that, other than the OP perhaps getting a better deal than they should have done.

Yes, my original Journey was direct to Sunderland from London Kings cross no changes

My replacement which i went on was kings cross > York > Thornaby > Sunderland & was double the amount of time.

I have already submitted a claim with Grand Central for a refund as I was delayed over an hour getting home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you submitted a claim for a refund or for Delay Repay? They are not the same even if for a delay of over an hour the outcome may be similar.

 

[kneal1]

Whilst there are no regulations (statutory instruments) pertaining to the issuance of an unpaid fares notice as you would find for a penalty fare - I’m intrigued by the figure of £50. Can you upload an anonymised photograph?

Assuming the UPFN is for Kings Cross to York, the £50 figure seems to have been plucked from thin air.

I'm using desktop and can't figure out how to get an image from my phone to desktop, he advised it was the cheapest option available & done it as a "courtesy" applied railcard discount, off-peak travel, everything possible to make the ticket as cheap as it could be. But the ticket was only valid from Kings cross to york direct.

My original ticket was able to be used for rest of the journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==

Have you submitted a claim for a refund or for Delay Repay? They are not the same even if for a delay of over an hour the outcome may be similar.

I submitted for delay repay, was that the wrong option?

 

[Haywain]

I'm using desktop and can't figure out how to get an image from my phone to desktop, he advised it was the cheapest option available & done it as a "courtesy" applied railcard discount, off-peak travel, everything possible to make the ticket as cheap as it could be. But the ticket was only valid from Kings cross to york direct.

My original ticket was able to be used for rest of the journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==


I submitted for delay repay, was that the wrong option?

That really depends on the tickets you held in one sense, but had you applied for a refund you would definitely be liable for the fare that LNER have issued the UFN for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I submitted for delay repay, was that the wrong option?

If you submitted for delay repay it does mean your original tickets are considered used, though because you used them for the last bit they were anyway.

 

[Starmill]

Have you submitted a claim for a refund or for Delay Repay? They are not the same even if for a delay of over an hour the outcome may be similar.

Grand Central's charter compensation pays the one way equivalent fare in compensation if the delay is three hours and one minute, or longer. For delays of three hours or less it's either 75% or 50%.

 

[Starmill]

Apologies, incorrect terminology used.

It was an UFN (unpaid fares notice) I have 28 days to dispute as I have wrote out above or pay the fare.

It is for £100 (2x £50 tickets) I wouldn't of been as bothered, but my original tickets cost about £300 which seems to be way over the avg price of the journey.

The reason Haywain is asking you this is because you could have claimed the £300 as a refund, paid the £50 for London to York, then paid for a new ticket after York to get you to Sunderland.

However, you cannot do this now, as you have firstly used the original ticket after York, and secondly claimed compensation on it.

This was going to be my plan if LNER reject my appeal (after I escalate it as much as possible).

I will inform both parties & give references and let them deal with it.

You can't submit an "appeal", you need to send LNER a complaint about their member of staff. Explain that your ticket was valid because you were specifically given permission to travel on that train. Ask them to cancel the unpaid fares notices.

 

[WesternLancer]

Our original booked return service with Grand Central (10:00 departure to Sunderland) was cancelled, and we received no prior communication advising us on what to do next, I understand this is none of your concern at this moment.

Due to our ticket being cancelled, we went to London King’s Cross and spoke directly with an LNER member of staff for guidance. We were explicitly advised that we could board the 09:33 LNER service to York and then make onward connections to Sunderland. To ensure this was correct, we also spoke with a second LNER staff member at the ticket gates, who confirmed that this route was valid and allowed us through. We boarded the train at around 9:30am.

However, once onboard the train, we were informed by the ticket inspector that our tickets were not valid. We were then issued penalty fares of £50 each. He advised that he made 3x announcements informing everyone on board that the tickets where not valid, these were made at 15/10/5 min intervals before departure, we must of either missed the announcement or boarding as it was made, we were also in a state of panic as we had just made the train before it left. The lady Infront also had the exact same story as us. When issuing the fine he also advised that he had fined 5x other passengers so far, with the same original tickets as us. He also advised, when he made the announcement 20+ people got of the train. This indicates a pattern, if 25+ people all board the same train, this shows that multiple people likely spoke to LNER staff members (as we did) & advised that our ticket was valid for travel. Before we boarded the train, we spoke to a LNER staff who was standing outside & asked what seats we're able to sit in as we didn't have any assigned to us as we our original 10:00 train to Sunderland was cancelled. (I didn't show him my ticket so I don't hold him to fault for not knowing my ticket wasn't valid) However, both LNER staff members I spoke to previously, I had showed my ticket, the first one even went as far as showing me the itinerary for my travel home as I now had 2x changes when my original ticket was direct.

I'd also like to note that we complied with the ticket inspector, gave our details etc. The lady in front did not, she refused to give details & as a result the ticket inspector advised BTP would be waiting for her at the station (no BTP was there at the station) & she walked away with no penalty, why should we be handed a fine when cooperating with the ticket inspector & she gets away with no penalty for refusing to collaborate.

I would like to highlight the following key points:

• We made every reasonable effort to follow the correct process after our train was cancelled.
• We relied entirely on the guidance of three official LNER staff members before boarding the train.
• There was clear widespread confusion, as a large number of passengers (approximately 20+) were also affected and left the train after similar announcements, indicating that multiple customers had been given the same incorrect advice.
• At no point did we attempt to avoid payment or travel without a valid ticket; we acted in good faith based on official instructions.

Had we been correctly advised, we would have taken the 10:33 service instead and avoided this situation entirely.

It occurs to
Me that if this is what you have already sent LNER it’s let down by referring to it as a fine.

As far as the staff who issued it is concerned it was the sum charged for getting on the train without a valid ticket. Tho I note you clearly believed you had instructions from other Lner staff to use the train. So you have my sympathy.

 

[kneal1]

The reason Haywain is asking you this is because you could have claimed the £300 as a refund, paid the £50 for London to York, then paid for a new ticket after York to get you to Sunderland.

I couldn't of claimed the full £300 as It was a return ticket & I travelled to London fine with no issues, £300 was for the journey there and back.

 

[WesternLancer]

Given Grand Central is an Open Access Operator ...Then I am wondering if you should perhaps forwards the UFNs to Grand Central and request they pay LNER .. And at the same time notify LNER of the actions you have taken and advised they need to engage with Grand Central with respect of unpaid fares. Basically let the National Operator LNER seek the UFNs from the Open Access operator who failed to deliver a service.

And seek a full delay repay from Grand Central as their cancelled service resulted in over 1 hour of delay.

Clearly LNER should not be carrying Open Access Operators customers for free. It is for the Open Access Operator to fund alternative transport when they fail to perform

I would not do this unless you are prepared for the risk of LNER's prosecuting you for travel without a valid ticket debt collectors eventually coming after you. Or defending their debt claim that prosecution in court which would be time consuming if nothing else (and would almost certainly fail as the prosecution would typically be a for a strict liability offence).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==

This was going to be my plan if LNER reject my appeal (after I escalate it as much as possible).

I will inform both parties & give references and let them deal with it.

I would not do this.the easiest way for them to deal with it is to pursue you for the debt, which various ticket t&c s will support their claim that you owe them £50.

If you are having difficulty uploading images of paperwork it may be worth asking moderators for help. They respond quickly on this site.

 

[Haywain]

Our original booked return service with Grand Central (10:00 departure to Sunderland) was cancelled,

Was this yesterday, March 22nd? If so, the alternative arrangements advised by GC are still visible on a post on X, linked below. The alternative arrangements they made were for passengers to travel on the 10:33 train from King's Cross (it's hardly ever the case that LNER agree to carry GC passengers on an earlier departure than the booked GC train).

Your options now are to pay the UFN or to write to the address provided on the UFN explaining what happened and asking them if they would consider setting it aside because of the information you were provided with at King's Cross by LNER staff. If they do not set it aside you will need to pay the UFN and seek to recover that amount from Grand Central.

https://x.com/GC_Rail/status/2035632213593653481

Cancellation: Our 10:00 London Kings Cross to Sunderland due 13:20 will be cancelled. Grand Central apologise for the inconvenience caused by the cancellation of your service today. Please see alternative arrangements below:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==

I would not do this unless you are prepared for the risk of lner’s debt collectors eventually coming after you. Or defending their debt claim in court which would be time consuming if nothing else.

This would not be a civil debt, but a criminal prosecution.

 

[WesternLancer]

This would not be a civil debt, but a criminal prosecution.

Thanks for clarifying and helpful to know - will edit my earlier post

In my view this makes your advice in your post #21 ref the OPs options even more important - as much more at stake if this is allowed to escalate.

I recall we have seen LNER take very reasonable approaches to UFN's (including cancelling them) on a few previous threads where situations have been unhelpful to passengers, and staff have advised people to do what happened. Though those cases may have involved just travel on different LNER trains than specified and not ones involving other operators tickets, I can't specifically recall.
But telling LNER (even politely) along the lines of 'go and do one and persuade Grand Central to pay you for this, not me', isn't in my view likely to achieve that outcome....

The revenue enforcement team at LNER might simply be prepared to 'see you in court' ... the outcome of that will almost certainly be far more than £50 per head

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But telling LNER (even politely) along the lines of 'go and do one and persuade Grand Central to pay you for this, not me', isn't in my view likely to achieve that outcome....

The revenue enforcement team at LNER might simply be prepared to 'see you in court' ... the outcome of that will almost certainly be far more than £50 per head

Just to pick up on this if LNER have done anything wrong then it's that there has been muddle between their platform staff and their on-train staff. That's caused you considerable inconvenience - but if you want LNER to resolve this in your favour then it means that to a large extent you are asking them to do you a favour.

So it's important that your correspondence to them should be assertive of your rights - but also respectful of LNER not being deeply in the wrong. Essentially you're not demanding that they cancel the unpaid fare notice - but you are asking them nicely, in view of the confusion between their staff, to do so.

 

[kneal1]

So it's important that your correspondence to them should be assertive of your rights - but also respectful of LNER not being deeply in the wrong. Essentially you're not demanding that they cancel the unpaid fare notice - but you are asking them nicely, in view of the confusion between their staff, to do so.

This is the approach I've went for, not being rude & demanding they cancel it but due to the confusion & mis-information of their staff I shouldn't be penalised I done everything in good faith, with good intention, trying to do the right thing in a stressful scenario (especially when I NEVER travel by train).

I will be looking to escalate it as much as possible as I attempted to do the right thing and was informed by 2x official LNER members of staff my ticket was valid, if an official staff member tells me something what reason do I have to doubt them or not believe them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==

but if you want LNER to resolve this in your favour then it means that to a large extent you are asking them to do you a favour.

I don't believe they are doing me a "favour" I was misinformed by their staff, embarrassed in public speaking to the ticket inspector debating about my ticket and the scenario, they should be cancelling the ticket due to miscommunication between their staff and apologisng for embarssing me in public.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will be looking to escalate it as much as possible as I attempted to do the right thing and was informed by 2x official LNER members of staff my ticket was valid, if an official staff member tells me something what reason do I have to doubt them or not believe them?

It shouldn't be necessary (and if LNER platform staff indeed gave you permission on sight of your ticket then this is very poor indeed), but for future reference, personally if getting permission to do something out of course I'd always ask for it in writing unless it's somewhere else where I can take evidence e.g. on a departure board where I can take a photo of it. If the member of staff won't do that, it's quite possible that they're not authorised to give such permission.

Using Twitter/X for this is often a good way as you can screenshot the TOC's response in writing even if they then go on to delete it.

 

[Haywain]

Using Twitter/X for this is often a good way as you can screenshot the TOC's response in writing even if they then go on to delete it.

And looking at the social media of the company you have booked to travel with, in the first instance.

 

[357]

Clearly LNER should not be carrying Open Access Operators customers for free. It is for the Open Access Operator to fund alternative transport when they fail to perform

In this case GC were unable to perform because the nationalised Network Rail were unable to secure the railway in a way that prevented cable theft. So should GC then forward the UFN to NR?

 

[ricoblade]

Just to add that I had this mismatch of information between LNER platfom at Kings' Cross and on-board staff recently. The guard told me that platform staff should not be giving out ticket advice as they are not trained to do so.

 

[Haywain]

Clearly LNER should not be carrying Open Access Operators customers for free. It is for the Open Access Operator to fund alternative transport when they fail to perform

When GC cancel services due to their own fault - train failure or crew shortage - they do pay LNER to carry their passengers. When the cancellation is due to infrastructure problems different arrangements may apply, although these are of no concern to the paying passenger either way.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is the approach I've went for, not being rude & demanding they cancel it but due to the confusion & mis-information of their staff I shouldn't be penalised I done everything in good faith, with good intention, trying to do the right thing in a stressful scenario (especially when I NEVER travel by train).

I will be looking to escalate it as much as possible as I attempted to do the right thing and was informed by 2x official LNER members of staff my ticket was valid, if an official staff member tells me something what reason do I have to doubt them or not believe them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2026 ==


I don't believe they are doing me a "favour" I was misinformed by their staff, embarrassed in public speaking to the ticket inspector debating about my ticket and the scenario, they should be cancelling the ticket due to miscommunication between their staff and apologisng for embarssing me in public.

I sympathise with all this but none of this will count for anything if they opt to go down the prosecution route if you don't pay this.

Personally I'd be paying the UFNs if they do not respond favourably to your initial request to cancel this - then escalating it with LNER / Ombudsman etc to get that refunded - as opposed to refusing to pay and let it escalate to a team that won't care much about the customer services aspects of all this - ie their revenue protection and enforcement team.

You only have to look at lots of other threads on this forum to see what happens if they commence the prosecution for travel without a valid ticket route - they can seek full Anytime Fare plus 'admin' charges for around £150 typically as out of court settlement under threat of prosecution - not saying LNER will do this but it's the risk you are weighing up if this escalates.

I'm saying this so you can make an informed decision of what options you have.

 

[kneal1]

And looking at the social media of the company you have booked to travel with, in the first instance.

Will be doing this going forward, never thought to check social media, too me, In person conversations should be far more credible & clear then Social Media.
But I guess with Social Media you have the "evidence" side too it, so In future will be doing this if I ever come into the same situation

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to add that I had this mismatch of information between LNER platfom at Kings' Cross and on-board staff recently. The guard told me that platform staff should not be giving out ticket advice as they are not trained to do so.

If this is the case (including the OP) always make a formal complaint as there is a staff disciplinary issue there - if staff aren't authorised to give out ticket validity information then they should not be doing so under any circumstances. £50 UFNs are at the low end of the problems this can cause when someone who isn't supposed to do this does, and because they're in TOC uniform the passenger quite reasonably takes it as read.

 

[kneal1]

If the GC ticket was bought with Credit card then is a 50% charge back possible ? Then use the money to pay the UPN ..

That is my final stage, I'll also try and refund the UPN on my credit card.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'll also try and refund the UPN on my credit card.

Do not do this. That is an abuse of the chargeback process. It's not what it's for and you will risk a lot of trouble.

It would really help for you to upload the Unpaid Fare Notice, this is really key to figuring out what it is for and how enforceable it is.