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There are very few people who are aged over 59 and nine months but under 60. Even fewer who want to make a train journey. It's probably not a surprise that you personally didn't see one, out of all of the millions of people in the county. But the principle is what I was talking about, not a specific case.
Indeed. It is the same with London Buses. If you arrive with a wheelchair you're eligible for the free travel. No further questions arise, same as with the entitlement here (i.e the 50% discount on an Anytime ticket on trains).
Seems like splitting hair but if it helps, I'll change
That way there's no need for a Disabled Railcard or for rail staff to be able to recognise a legitimate looking PIP letter or comprehend an opticians' report etc.
to
That way there's no need for a Disabled Railcard or for anybody in the rail industry to be able to recognise a legitimate looking PIP letter or comprehend an opticians' report etc.
If it's better for environment depends where you live.
I can jump in my electric car, go to Bath and back for about 30p worth of overnight electricity, paying £4 for 2 hours parking = £4.30
Or I can take a 35 year noisy diesel turbo with smelly exhausts for £5.55 with railcard, £5.35 off peak from 09:52 train (off peak £8.10 without railcard), and yes it's priced with about 4% difference between peak and off peak which is just unnecessarily complicated for such a token difference
or take diesel bus £3 each way = £6
So here in Wiltshire very questionable if train is better for the environment, its not even priced to undercut taking car and paying for parking.
Outside Central London it's not the norm that going by train is cheaper than parking to be honest. If that were genuinely the case I'd have been very surprised. I still uses buses and trains but I know I pay substantially more overall than I would do if I bought a car (and paid for car parking).
Seems like splitting hair but if it helps, I'll change
That way there's no need for a Disabled Railcard or for rail staff to be able to recognise a legitimate looking PIP letter or comprehend an opticians' report etc.
to
That way there's no need for a Disabled Railcard or for anybody in the rail industry to be able to recognise a legitimate looking PIP letter or comprehend an opticians' report etc.
It makes no difference - they specialise in what they do, so the industry they work isn't relevant and problems don't arise because of it. There's more risk of variation in the issue of such as ENCTS cards by local authority employees.
It makes no difference - they specialise in what they do, so the industry they work isn't relevant and problems don't arise because of it. There's more risk of variation in the issue of such as ENCTS cards by local authority employees.
It does make a difference because if every organisation from rail to cinemas to National Trust to pubs to racing circuits to zoos are spending time training staff, verifying documents, printing cards, managing databases, handling complaints etc etc then that's delivering an inconsistent experience and costing money. I already know from the disabled family member I often help how faffy it can be.
I'm somebody who knows more than the average person about ticketing, though far from an expert, and even I didn't know that wheelchair users didn't need a Disabled Railcard to get a discount.
It would be a lot simpler if you didn't need to research the process for GB rail, for Eurostar, for National Trust, for cinemas, etc all separately, often with different forms to fill in, different ID to send, different additional charges for cards etc to pay. A simple scheme which says if you have this card with a red square or a blue triangle you get a 1/3rd discount, would be very helpful.
It would be a lot simpler if you didn't need to research the process for GB rail, for Eurostar, for National Trust, for cinemas, etc all separately, often with different forms to fill in, different ID to send, different additional charges for cards etc to pay. A simple scheme which says if you have this card with a red square or a blue triangle you get a 1/3rd discount, would be very helpful.
Going back to the original discussion wouldn't a handful of small scale reforms have a lot of effect?
Require retailers of Railcatds to maintain a history of purchases and dates (RDG already do this)
Require retailers not to automatically roll over Railcard entitlements (The Forum's site requires the Raillcard to be specified each search)
Require retailers to take details of a Railcard expiry date when selling tickets and cancel Railcard flags once this is exceeded.
Require retailers to remind purchasers of railcard expiry dates (RDG do this)
Enable purchasers buying for several people with different railcards to set up sub accounts.
The stories appearing in the Disputes sub-forum suggests that the current systems set a lot of traps for the unwary.
Really needs to be a separate (automatically opted in) notification of expiry, rather than within the do you want to be sent lots of stuff which most people opt out of tick box.
Opting out of marketing etc, shouldn't also kill expiry warning email.
It would be simpler but that's a general problem, not a railway problem. Exactly my point :D But it does affect the railway in the form of the Disabled Railcard. It would improve the rail experience, as well as the zoo experience and the cinema experience etc.
By the time the internet and self-service ticket machines that sold the full range of fares became a thing, the industry was privatised and adapting this model went into the 'too difficult' pile, hence the easements that tolerated Railcard sales online and at ticket machines without having to prove entitlement.
My recollection is rather different (third party retailers offering to trial railcard validation well before this announcement and simply getting blanked by those involved at RDG afterwards - yes, I have the receipts.)
But I rather think you have an extraordinarily negative view of any progress in the sector when it comes to the advent modern technology and retail, so your suggestions to the contrary aren't exactly out of character. There is much that could've been done in this space years ago from a technical perspective. Privatisation is not the reason that it didn't.
Going back to the original discussion wouldn't a handful of small scale reforms have a lot of effect?
Require retailers of Railcatds to maintain a history of purchases and dates (RDG already do this)
Require retailers not to automatically roll over Railcard entitlements (The Forum's site requires the Raillcard to be specified each search)
Require retailers to take details of a Railcard expiry date when selling tickets and cancel Railcard flags once this is exceeded.
Require retailers to remind purchasers of railcard expiry dates (RDG do this)
Enable purchasers buying for several people with different railcards to set up sub accounts.
The stories appearing in the Disputes sub-forum suggests that the current systems set a lot of traps for the unwary.
The changes being proposed apply to ALL retail methods. Some of your suggestions don't really seem practical when retailing via TVMs or booking offices.
On the rail journeys I make enforcement is barely noticed, let alone aggressive, and from the people we see posting in the Disputes forum that seems to be the case generally until they get caught out.
On the rail journeys I make enforcement is barely noticed, let alone aggressive, and from the people we see posting in the Disputes forum that seems to be the case generally until they get caught out.
Indeed some people get to 100 or 200 offences before they are finally caught. The enforcement on the ground is not aggressive at all in my view - the only part which might be so are some TOCs who play hardball with settlements.
Indeed some people get to 100 or 200 offences before they are finally caught. The enforcement on the ground is not aggressive at all in my view - the only part which might be so are some TOCs who play hardball with settlements.
I think this misses the enforcement against the average traveller, such as valid tickets getting rejected on gatelines. Paddington rejecting people with Off Peak tickets issued against an itinerary is a great example, another is my mum was threatened with prosecution at Reading for using her senior railcard at a time it isn't allowed, which would've been fair enough but she was using it against an itinerary issued by GWR's own site.
The railway has created an environment where the people who know what they are doing can easily get away with fare evasion, while infrequent travellers are caught out by poorly trained staff, who won't even accept the basic rule of a ticket being valid if used against the itinerary it was purchased against, and who often come at situations like the above with a very hostile attitude.
Specifically the automatic rejection yes, but as I mentioned in the rest of my post the attitude of staff that sometimes follows I would certainly say can sometimes come across aggressive.
Specifically the automatic rejection yes, but as I mentioned in the rest of my post the attitude of staff that sometimes follows I would certainly say can sometimes come across aggressive.
While we were in the EU it would have required us to offer the same discount to all EU citizens who met the qualifications. Whether we should have done is a separate issue. restricting the discount to those who hold railcards (and making those available to anyone eligible who is prepared to buy one) avoided that issue entirely.
As I mentioned in my original post it is not when you need a railcard, it is when a website has sold you something that goes against the rules, or at least the staff members idea of the rules. Have you turned up at Paddington with a (valid) off peak ticket in the evening peak? The staff are incredibly hostile towards anyone who has a ticket that doesn’t fit their strict idea of validity.
This forum itself is filled with plenty of examples of paying customers who have done what the railway has told them and been met with hostility.
It is 'filled' with such cases and they represent a tiny minority of rail travellers. The railway that most people experience isn't the one you read about on the Disputes forum.
It is 'filled' with such cases and they represent a tiny minority of rail travellers. The railway that most people experience isn't the one you read about on the Disputes forum.
And yet in my immediate family myself and two others have had experiences as such. It is obviously variable across regions, but the railway can be very heavy handed on people who have made a small mistake or are doing stuff people don’t like, while also failing to catch serial offenders.
And yet in my immediate family myself and two others have had experiences as such. It is obviously variable across regions, but the railway can be very heavy handed on people who have made a small mistake or are doing stuff people don’t like, while also failing to catch serial offenders.
I have never had trouble with ticket inspections. Not even the time I inadvertently bought a ticket for the following day (Northern guard sold me a ticket for the right day, Uber refunded the wrongly bought ticket).
It's not just an inconvenience, it shows there's something deeply wrong with ticketing in general. If a ranger or rover is valid at X station, it should let you out at X station guaranteed. Same with any ticket, discounted by a railcard or not.
It's infuriating buying a ticket, especially if it's expensive like £100 to then be treated as I have no ticket at all. The bigger stations definitely have issues with the staff, they're more stressed I guess. Just makes me want to exit the rail network at an open station, despite having a ticket, which kind of defeats the point.
Railcards - I'm surprised a system isn't in place where it's on a database and can be linked to an account where you buy tickets online that makes restrictions (if applicable) clear at time of purchase. In person, at a ticket office or ticket machine, surely NFC could be used, so a simple tap could validate it.
Anyone who bends the rules, I really do think a pay the difference should be offered first and only fine if they refuse.
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Or just make ENCTS cards (and the equivalents in Wales/Scotland) the "Disabled Railcard", so long as they've got the yellow stripe (for disability) rather than the blue (old age). Bit more difficult with the Welsh ones though as those are the same whether you're disabled or a pensioner.
Generally agree with this, but how we'd get the different authorities to agree on the criteria, who knows?
Would also require mutual acceptance of free bus travel across all 3 countries (which really should happen anyway) and make provision so bus pass holders could pay a fee to benefit from any extra concessions. Eg rail part of the Freedom Pass, discounted trams in Manchester etc. Everywhere removing time restrictions for concessionary travel. A lot really needs to be aligned.
I've always thought the best customer service is at unstaffed, ungated stations. I don't want to have the friction of gates set to reject tickets or explaining what a restriction code or break of journey to someone from OnTrak who snoozed through the training (if they even offer much training). Although in fairness, the agency staff often let you through with anything vaguely orange. TfL gatelines however......
Are we at the stage where TVM sales are such a low proportion it doesn't really matter if they follow the new rules on validation? If 5% of the smartest miscreants switch from online to TVMs, so what. After all, TOCs doing data trawls when they catch people doesn't seem to have made those who don't follow the rules switch en masse.
And that, in a nutshell, is why a significant proportion of the population are terrified of the idea of travelling by rail.
I appreciate this sort of thing doesn't happen as often as some may think - that's a separate point and a perfectly reasonable one - but to say having a valid ticket rejected and being told by somebody in authority that you are travelling without a valid ticket, under conditions where you can be fined and/or sued and/or prosecuted for this (the last of which could affect your career) is "just an inconvenience", is wide of the mark.
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