222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

[380101]

I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

They only need 19 222s a day to deliver the service.

 

[Warrior2852]

I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Indeed, on timetabled public passenger services anyway. There's a few around on charter and heritage services, and some modified ones used for non-passenger purposes.

 

[AndrewE]

I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

They only need 19 222s a day to deliver the service.

assuming that they actually work... There seems to be a lot of grief on the Midland Main Line from 222s failing at the moment, so I am surpirsed that the only power-supply comment on the list of upgrades in post#6 is "Intelligent Engine Start Stop (automatically stops an engine to reduce emissions.") It seems to me that they need something a lot deeper if they are going to be relied upon not to fail in the middle of the desolate wastes in the north!

 

[Snow1964]

I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

Yes specifically says will be phased replacement from 2027 to be all replaced by December 2028

The HSTs will be 46-50 years old by 2028 so need more spares to cope with age related reliability and lack of spares. There is effectively 2 sub fleets of HSTs too (different numbers of trailers), whereas the 222s will be a common fleet.

There are 19 diagrams

 

[waverley47]

I foresee these being the last diesels ScotRail acquires - I do wonder about whether there's an opportunity to use them on other lines such as the West Highland in future, if and when non-diesel stock and electrification is rolled out on the routes they'll cover initially.

They won't be used on the WHL, not least because the heavy axle load restrictions on speed on the Mallaig extension would be prohibitive.

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

Availability of the HST sets has been less than ideal for some time. A reduction in units but higher availability should allow a like for like replacement without a reduction in diagrams.

Anyway, it does make me wonder what will happen to the 3 ‘spare’ coaches. Stored for potential future use, or disposed of?

The three spare coaches are coming as well. There's a long term desire for increasing capacity on the Inverness diagrams that the three coaches would allow in the future.

Has anyone had any experience driving them?

ScotRail driver managers have been to Polmadie to go and see them, and there have been training materials arriving at ScotRail for some time. This has been known about internally for over a year, and the beginnings of the training side are underway already, even if no driver has sat in a cab yet.

I guess the big question is whether all of the 810's will have made it into service by 2028?

This is the multimillion pound question, quite literally for the DfT and Hitachi. ScotRail management have internally been very very angry at EMR and Hitachi and their inability to get their introduction together, which is why this has taken longer than necessary. The Scottish election coming up has meant that an announcement and agreement to lease has now run out of time, and EMR now has a ticking clock that they can't escape.

Time will tell if Hitachi manages to pull themselves together, or if the East Midlands will be stuck with a lack of trains for a while, but this is no longer ScotRail's problem.

Haymarket will have plenty of room for 222s once the HSTs go. Given the 222 is originally a Bombardier product I wouldn't envisage Haymarket having any problems given that it's the principal 170 maintenance depot.

Transport Scotland already has a good working relationship with Polmadie regarding the Caledonian Sleeper, and so it is likely that knowledge will be shared across. Maintenance will be in house, with depots at Haymarket, Aberdeen and Inverness already looking after the HSTs.

Haymarket depot will still be short of space until the BEMUs arrive (watch this space regarding depot allocations following the introduction of the new units) but given that there's a decent amount of capacity across the network, it's not as if there's nowhere to put them.

Additionally, given that neither Bombardier nor ADtranz exist any more, and that Craigentinny is the traditional depot for the Voyagers in Scotland, and that is now Hitachi's based of operations and it's basically full each night, it's not exactly as if there's a depot in Scotland that would be an easy fit.

assuming that they actually work... There seems to be a lot of grief on the Midland Main Line from 222s failing at the moment, so I am surpirsed that the only power-supply comment on the list of upgrades in post#6 is "Intelligent Engine Start Stop (automatically stops an engine to reduce emissions.") It seems to me that they need something a lot deeper if they are going to be relied upon not to fail in the middle of the desolate wastes in the north!

Indeed, another reason why ScotRail management are understandably quite annoyed. EMR have been running them down to avoid paying for maintenance, focusing on the 810s, and reliability has suffered. As such, the units coming to ScotRail will be getting a mechanical look over before they enter service, and there will be a period of familiarisation at the depots before they enter squadron service.

As I understand it, reducing reliability has meant that the original leasing cost estimate has been reduced to reflect this, as ScotRail were worried about the mechanical condition they'd be arriving in.

 

[Snow1964]

assuming that they actually work... There seems to be a lot of grief on the Midland Main Line from 222s failing at the moment, so I am surpirsed that the only power-supply comment on the list of upgrades in post#6 is "Intelligent Engine Start Stop (automatically stops an engine to reduce emissions.") It seems to me that they need something a lot deeper if they are going to be relied upon not to fail in the middle of the desolate wastes in the north!

They will not be thrashed at 125mph in Scotland, although some gradients are steeper than most of Midland mainline.

Potentially might be power capped a bit to improve reliability if the high speed running isn't needed. The intelligent engine start stop suggests the engine control units are being modified anyway, so could incorporate other changes

 

[mmh]

It's a good service that's provided by starlink, unfortunately the media drive this anti musk campaign which is downright embarrassing

Quite. I'm not sure why we're supposed to care about the political opinions of a businessman. We all no doubt buy things all the time that financially benefit someone we wouldn't agree with, whatever our own political leanings are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==

assuming that they actually work... There seems to be a lot of grief on the Midland Main Line from 222s failing at the moment, so I am surpirsed that the only power-supply comment on the list of upgrades in post#6 is "Intelligent Engine Start Stop (automatically stops an engine to reduce emissions.") It seems to me that they need something a lot deeper if they are going to be relied upon not to fail in the middle of the desolate wastes in the north!

Why are they unreliable though? Their older, and possibly more intensively worked, Voyager cousins aren't. Are they just not being maintained well as they're on their way out from the Midland Main Line?

 

[222001]

Why are they unreliable though? Their older, and possibly more intensively worked, Voyager cousins aren't. Are they just not being maintained well as they're on their way out from the Midland Main Line?

They were perfectly reliable (even winning multiple golden spanners) until a year or so ago, when Hitachi took over maintenance. They are very reliable trains if looked after - it also sounds like they'll receive a full overhaul before entering service with ScotRail, which should help reverse the rot.

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

Image of the 222 in question - Looks quite good in the Scotrail livery.

Image Source - Scotrail Website

 

[tfw756rider]

Excuse my ignorance, but I see these 222s sometimes referred to a diesel-electric…. What’s the difference between that and simply diesel?

It means electric transmission, i.e. the engine turns a generator and electric motors turn the wheels. The other options are diesel-hydraulic (e.g. the Sprinter classes) and diesel-mechanical (e.g. classic DMUs and 195/6/7).

There's no such thing as a diesel train they're all diesel-something. In this case diesel-electric means that the diesel engine drivers a generator which produces electricity which is then used by electric motors to actually provide traction power (and is amongst the most common form of diesel powered rolling stock, particularly locomotives). You can also have diesel-hydraulic where various things happen involving hydraulic fluids to provide the traction power (the ability to explain that eludes me!) or diesel-mechanical where there is a direct connection from the diesel engine to the wheels through a gearbox (quite a common DMU set up and basically what you'd have a in a car or van).

Diesel electric is where the diesel engine drives a generator to provide power to traction motors.

Diesel mechanical is where the drive is through a gearbox usually and then to the wheels. No electrics other than power for onboard auxiliaries and starting.

Exactly.

Diesel-mechanical (engine-gearbox) is classes 10x/11x/12x and [14x as built] for the old SCG 4-speed box, then 172, NI C4K and 195/196/197 (edit - and MPV) use a modern ZF 6-speed box.

Diesel-hydraulic (engine-hydraulic transmission) is classes [14x re-engineered], 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 165, 166, 168, 170, 171, 175 and NI C3K for the 2-speed Voith hydraulic, and 180 and 185 for the 3-speed Voith hydraulic. Was unusually also used by locomotives of classes 35, 41/42/43 (Warship) and 52.

Diesel-electric (engine-generator-traction motors) is classes 20x and then 220, 221, 222, 230 (London Northwestern, as was) and 231. Also used by the vast majority of diesel locomotives (including the HST power cars), the "diesel mode" of bi/tri-mode locomotives, and the "diesel mode" of bi/tri-mode units (230 Transport for Wales, 755, 756, 769, 800, [801 "rescue engine"], 802, 805 and 810 - edit - and 820 and 897).

=========================

The acronyms for all three types are:

DMMU - Diesel-Mechanical Multiple Unit
DHMU - Diesel-Hydraulic Multiple Unit
DEMU - Diesel-Electric Multiple Unit

and then DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) includes all three.

=========================

Sometimes though, you'll hear/see (as indeed you did) DMU ("diesel") and DEMU ("diesel-electric").

In this case, DMU is [DMMU and/or DHMU] and DEMU is, well, DEMU.

This latter way does align with the TOPS class number ranges, as [DMMU and DHMU] ("DMU") are 1xx, then DEMU is 2xx.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==

Image

I posted two images (that one and another one) in post #37

 

[Merle Haggard]

So the 222s will have 'intelligent stop - start'
They seem to produce the first half of the process regularly on MML, halfway there

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Was any replacement for Mk3s ever an improvement? I strongly suspect they’ll be looked back on as a pinnacle of design, especially in terms of ride quality.

This is rather rose tinted and misses that on introduction many of the same complaints made today were being made about the Mk3/HST compared to their predecessors. Both in terms of passenger experience and motive power.

Shame we couldn't have had this in the East Midlands rather than the 810's Would have been a good stopgap before complete electrification.

I guess the big question is whether all of the 810's will have made it into service by 2028?

Doing this would have made extending the wires less, rather than more likely. 'Why spend on extending electrification if what has been built isn't used?' Plus it would prevent implementing improvements in the timetable from the substantially better acceleration of IETs on electric vs any 'express' multiple unit from a similar time as the 222s.

 

[RiverDon]

Great that they've finally made the public announcement of the worst kept secret of the company! I am really looking forward to these 'new' (to us) trains, although I have enjoyed attempting to get to grips with the HSTs in the short time I've been working them.

Has anyone had any experience driving them?

I'm really interested to hear what the 222s are like from the cab too. Any East Midlands Trains drivers on here that can fill us in on them? Most importantly is the driver seat on these comfier than the knackered old HST ones?

 

[brad465]

I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

If Scotrail eventually get the Lumo units as well, then they'd have 27x Class 222s. If they keep the 6-car formation in the process (if passenger growth continues in the years ahead this maybe necessary), that's a further enhancement.

 

[380101]

Great that they've finally made the public announcement of the worst kept secret of the company! I am really looking forward to these 'new' (to us) trains, although I have enjoyed attempting to get to grips with the HSTs in the short time I've been working them.


I'm really interested to hear what the 222s are like from the cab too. Any East Midlands Trains drivers on here that can fill us in on them? Most importantly is the driver seat on these comfier than the knackered old HST ones?

The driving cabs are very spacious with the seat pretty much in the middle. The seats are comparable to the 380/385 driver seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==

ScotRail driver managers have been to Polmadie to go and see them, and there have been training materials arriving at ScotRail for some time. This has been known about internally for over a year, and the beginnings of the training side are underway already, even if no driver has sat in a cab yet.

The full ScotRail driver's Aslef Company Council along with the Conductor's RMT Company Council and various managers went to EMR at Derby last September to get a good look at the 222s. From what I've heard they left with good impressions of the driving cab and overall were quite happy with them.

Driver Trainers and Op Standards managers have been nipping across to Polmadie in the evenings when the Lumo training unit is back in for the last few weeks now.

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

That's Interesting. So people inside the industry have known about it for a wee while. When they do come into service do you think it will lead to higher line speed for shorter journeys?

 

[Dryce]

They may not be brand new, or bi-mode, but I'm sure Scottish passengers will see the 222s as an improvement.

Ummmmmmmmmm ........... maybe not all.

Yes the HSTs are past their sell by date. But I can't remember being on a 220, 221, or 222 and ever thinking they were actually better. And they seemed to buzz and rattle and shake a lot more.

At the moment if I was doing a trip across Scotland then I'd probably still choose a HST service over the 222 if there was the option.

So IMHO at best a sidegrade and possibly a slight downgrade.

 

[AndrewE]

Why are they unreliable though? Their older, and possibly more intensively worked, Voyager cousins aren't. Are they just not being maintained well as they're on their way out from the Midland Main Line?

They were perfectly reliable (even winning multiple golden spanners) until a year or so ago, when Hitachi took over maintenance. They are very reliable trains if looked after - it also sounds like they'll receive a full overhaul before entering service with ScotRail, which should help reverse the rot.

I wonder how many spare engines there are and how much rebuilding will be needed... Equally, are "overhauled" engines run in on a test bed before being released back to the user?
I wouldn't want to buy a knackered car which has been flogged and neglected just because the seller promised to change the oil and the filter first...
(I suppose what I am asking is if the damage caused by the recent poor maintenance will turn out to be irreparable and Scotrail will find they have been sold another turkey!)

 

[matchmaker]

That's Interesting. So people inside the industry have known about it for a wee while. When they do come into service do you think it will lead to higher line speed for shorter journeys?

I'm pretty certain that no part of the Scottish network which these trains will use has a line speed of over 100mph.

 

[p.d87]

Given they’ve never used the buffets in the HST’s I can’t see them having them in the 222’s.

I think the green band for the cycle storage is where the buffet currently is in the pictures. I may be wrong though. Taking out the buffet might be how they can fit 6 cycles in.

 

[thenorthern]

I foresee these being the last diesels ScotRail acquires - I do wonder about whether there's an opportunity to use them on other lines such as the West Highland in future, if and when non-diesel stock and electrification is rolled out on the routes they'll cover initially.

They won't be used on the WHL, not least because the heavy axle load restrictions on speed on the Mallaig extension would be prohibitive.

I can't see them being used on the West Highland Line, the dividing at Crianlarich would mean 2 relatively long trains for the journeys that they are doing.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

That's Interesting. So people inside the industry have known about it for a wee while. When they do come into service do you think it will lead to higher line speed for shorter journeys?

The rolling stock itself wouldn't be reason for line speed changes, and 222s can use the 'HST' speed differential so any performance gain/change would be from differences in acceleration.

 

[QSK19]

What’s the difference in the 222/1 subclass?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==

Hopefully someone can answer your question properly, but they're the former Hull Trains 'Pioneers', which they used for just 3 years from 2005 to 2009 for some reason.

Basically some interior/seating differences though from what I understand.

The 222/1s were, as you say, procured by HT. They were originally 4-car units and then, as already said, moved to East Midlands Trains (not Railway) once HT got the 180s.

They became 5-car units after EMR reconfigured the 222 fleet into 5 and 7 car units.

I would love it if they retained their Meridian name given that it’s been part of their identity for nearly 25 years (indeed, the name is used interchangeably with the number 222); but I recognise it wouldn’t have any meaning at SR.

 

[EMU303]

Exactly.

Diesel-mechanical (engine-gearbox) is classes 10x/11x/12x and [14x as built] for the old SCG 4-speed box, then 172, NI C4K and 195/196/197 use a modern ZF 6-speed box.

Diesel-hydraulic (engine-hydraulic transmission) is classes [14x re-engineered], 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 165, 166, 168, 170, 171, 175 and NI C3K for the 2-speed Voith hydraulic, and 180 and 185 for the 3-speed Voith hydraulic. Was unusually also used by locomotives of classes 35, 41/42/43 (Warship) and 52.

Diesel-electric (engine-generator-traction motors) is classes 20x and then 220, 221, 222, 230 (London Northwestern, as was) and 231. Also used by the vast majority of diesel locomotives (including the HST power cars), the "diesel mode" of bi/tri-mode locomotives, and the "diesel mode" of bi/tri-mode units (230 Transport for Wales, 755, 756, 769, 800, [801 "rescue engine"], 802, 805 and 810).

=========================

The acronyms for all three types are:

DMMU - Diesel-Mechanical Multiple Unit
DHMU - Diesel-Hydraulic Multiple Unit
DEMU - Diesel-Electric Multiple Unit

and then DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) includes all three.

=========================

Sometimes though, you'll hear/see (as indeed you did) DMU ("diesel") and DEMU ("diesel-electric").

In this case, DMU is [DMMU and/or DHMU] and DEMU is, well, DEMU.

This latter way does align with the TOPS class number ranges, as [DMMU and DHMU] ("DMU") are 1xx, then DEMU is 2xx.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==


I posted two images (that one and another one) in post #37

Thanks to all who replied to my question including this very detailed reply

Does the stop/start function mean (like a car) the diesel engines will only be engaged immediately before departure? The HSTs currently belch out diesel fumes at terminus stations well before departure.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Thanks to all who replied to my question including this very detailed reply

Does the stop/start function mean (like a car) the diesel engines will only be engaged immediately before departure? The HSTs currently belch out diesel fumes at terminus stations well before departure.

It would likely be used in two situations: First similar to as you say, but would keep some engines running for hotel power during a turnround. The second is where engine(s) are turned off when running to save fuel when the power is not required. If designed/implemented like the system on the Class 185s the deactivated engine(s) will vary to balance engine hours / maintenance windows.

Would be more likely to be a few minutes before departure rather than immediately before. This would both give engines time to reach operating temperatures, and provide an operating performance buffer in the case of an engine not starting (ie cycling its master power and trying again). Not sure will see any perfectly tuned pieces of timber and sledge hammers being used to convince a recalcitrant starter motor.

 

[aaronspence]

I would love it if they retained their Meridian name given that it’s been part of their identity for nearly 25 years (indeed, the name is used interchangeably with the number 222); but I recognise it wouldn’t have any meaning at SR.

The ScotRail twitter seem to be calling them 'Tripple 2's' wether thats official or not, Could be the branding name.

 

[dosxuk]

Doing this would have made extending the wires less, rather than more likely. 'Why spend on extending electrification if what has been built isn't used?' Plus it would prevent implementing improvements in the timetable from the substantially better acceleration of IETs on electric vs any 'express' multiple unit from a similar time as the 222s.

Well the argument for cancelling the electrification twice now has been "we've got these bi-mode trains, and them up north don't mind diesel fumes, so they're perfect for the job". If the bi-modes didn't exist, there was clear agreement that the MML needed wiring, and I believe we would be seeing it almost complete by now.

The 810's have been specced to match the 222 performance. While they may have slightly better acceleration under electric mode, evidence is suggesting they're slightly worse than the 222's on diesel - bye bye any chance of timetable improvements - even if you could fit a faster journey in on the bottom part of the MML.

 

[AndrewE]

Thanks to all who replied to my question including this very detailed reply

Does the stop/start function mean (like a car) the diesel engines will only be engaged immediately before departure? The HSTs currently belch out diesel fumes at terminus stations well before departure.

the trouble with this is that trains have a lot of auxiliary equipment. The most obvious (to me) is brake reservoir pressure, assuming these things have air-operated brakes, and I suspect that "older" rolling stock - or drivers trained on such - will need to do that preparation, which may take several minutes. One of my motorcycling friends insisted that he had to get the bike engine up to some specified temperature before putting it under load too...
First-generation DMUs had to have adequate air pressure to work the gearboxes anyway.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Well the argument for cancelling the electrification twice now has been "we've got these bi-mode trains, and them up north don't mind diesel fumes, so they're perfect for the job". If the bi-modes didn't exist, there was clear agreement that the MML needed wiring, and I believe we would be seeing it almost complete by now.

The 810's have been specced to match the 222 performance. While they may have slightly better acceleration under electric mode, evidence is suggesting they're slightly worse than the 222's on diesel - bye bye any chance of timetable improvements - even if you could fit a faster journey in on the bottom part of the MML.

Yup... this would have been great, along with the remuddling concepts between the Wigston and Syston areas... but is also entirely irrelevant to my point because it didn't happen like that, bi-modes do exist, and the wires have only been extended to Wigston.

So in the reality of today, keeping 222s in place of the 810s would mean the extension is not used, so it is 'wasted', resulting in it being harder to make the case for more electrification.

Much to my own frustration, this is a world where the wires have to be 'shown' to be used and useful, and where in the economic case for further extensions the cost of new rolling stock can be minimised due to 'the trains are already electric'.

Whilst the diesel performance always seemed optimistic to me, any improvements on the southern end of the MML will be very useful given that area is one of the largest constraints and performance challenge on the whole route.

 

[tfw756rider]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==


The 222/1s were, as you say, procured by HT. They were originally 4-car units and then, as already said, moved to East Midlands Trains (not Railway) once HT got the 180s.

They became 5-car units after EMR reconfigured the 222 fleet into 5 and 7 car units.

I would love it if they retained their Meridian name given that it’s been part of their identity for nearly 25 years (indeed, the name is used interchangeably with the number 222); but I recognise it wouldn’t have any meaning at SR.

Isn't there some difference with the seating though? I read something to that effect.