Railcards users to face additional checks when buying tickets

[yorksrob]

Why not give people entitled to a discount, a discount? My local pub doesn't require purchasing a Pensioners Discount Card to get a fiver off their Sunday lunch. It's hardly an unusual concept.

Because they're not entitled to a discount before they've bought a railcard. Why should the industry give away discounts for free

Like the same situation then, so it's not an argument in favour of keeping railcards.

How do you propose to implement a levy on "- rich people - who are wealthy enough not to be concerned by rail fares.", without means-testing wealth?

You don't. A lot of them won't want the hassle.

 

[styles]

Because they're not entitled to a discount before they've bought a railcard. Why should the industry give away discounts for free

They are though, they just don't know it. At the moment you get the discount if you happen to be "in the know". That's not good.

I'm surprised you're defending such anti-passenger measures to be honest.

You don't. A lot of them won't want the hassle.

So it's an irrelevant point then.

 

[xotGD]

Why should the industry give away discounts for free

Of course, Duo* tickets give you a Two Together discount without the need for a railcard.

*Other names are also used.

 

[yorksrob]

Well yes, they're entitled to it. Much like I would expect a wheelchair user rocking up to a ticket office to be given a disabled passenger discount, or an elderly person to be given a senior passenger discount.

Advocating for anything other than that I believe to be anti-passenger, which the railway often currently is.

If you rock up to Waverley ticket office and ask to go to London and they knowingly sell you a £65 more expensive ticket than you need I believe to be pretty poor and the sign of a totally broken system.

Well that just makes the whole situation of not having a national railcard available to all, even more absurd.

There are good reasons that disadvantaged groups should have access to a discount that are apart from commercial considerations, but seriously - you're saying that couples are disadvantaged just because they're shacked up ?

 

[styles]

Of course, Duo* tickets give you a Two Together discount without the need for a railcard.

*Other names are also used.

As do GroupSave, operator-specific group discounts like LNER offer, etc. Of course you need a PhD in rail ticketing to know all of these quirks.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course, Duo* tickets give you a Two Together discount without the need for a railcard.

*Other names are also used.

The same could be said for Groupsave. One can only assume that there's an overwhelming commercial reason for those to be available for free that doesn't exist for railcards.

 

[styles]

Well that just makes the whole situation of not having a national railcard available to all, even more absurd.

But you don't need a Railcard at all if you just apply the discounts to the tickets as they're used.

If you go to the cinema and buy discounted senior persons cinema ticket they don't make you buy a card first.

In fact the only group routinely made to buy cards is disabled people which is where I'd advocate for a national disability entitlement card to simplify things but that's a bit of a tangent.

There are good reasons that disadvantaged groups should have access to a discount that are apart from commercial considerations, but seriously - you're saying that couples are disadvantaged just because they're shacked up ?

You don't have to be shacked up together to get a Two Together Railcard.

Any two adults can get it. In the past I have concurrently held over a dozen Railcards, mainly Two Together. I've benefitted from happening to know about this quirk in the system while a lot of passengers going on weekend trips have looked at fares and gone nah I'll drive when had they been given the third off might've re-evaluated and taken the train instead. It's a frankly ridiculous system and relies too much on knowing niche products, whether it's Two Together Railcards, Friends and Family Railcards, GroupSave, LNER group discounts, Northern Duo, etc.

 

[yorksrob]

As do GroupSave, operator-specific group discounts like LNER offer, etc. Of course you need a PhD in rail ticketing to know all of these quirks.

Groupsave to be fair, targets those families who would struggle to get value against the car. I see less justification for the duo offer, but then it's availability is so limited, it doesn't really register with me at all.

For the record, I'd be in favour of groupsave being rolled out Nationwide - I don't see why just Southerners should get it.

Incidentally, when I were a lad, NSE had a family railcard, so this was another approach to achieving the same objective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2026 ==

But you don't need a Railcard at all if you just apply the discounts to the tickets as they're used.

If you go to the cinema and buy discounted senior persons cinema ticket they don't make you buy a card first.

In fact the only group routinely made to buy cards is disabled people which is where I'd advocate for a national disability entitlement card to simplify things but that's a bit of a tangent.

You don't have to be shacked up together to get a Two Together Railcard.

Any two adults can get it. In the past I have concurrently held over a dozen Railcards, mainly Two Together. I've benefitted from happening to know about this quirk in the system while a lot of passengers going on weekend trips have looked at fares and gone nah I'll drive when had they been given the third off might've re-evaluated and taken the train instead. It's a frankly ridiculous system and relies too much on knowing niche products, whether it's Two Together Railcards, Friends and Family Railcards, GroupSave, LNER group discounts, Northern Duo, etc.

If it is a frankly ridiculous system, it should be replaced by a national railcard available to all. That would sort it.

(Or maybe two - with a version available to very disadvantaged groups with peak validity).

 

[jfollows]

Of course, Duo* tickets give you a Two Together discount without the need for a railcard.

*Other names are also used.

Which is why I don’t renew my Two Together Railcard when it expires, because it’s not needed for Wilmslow-Manchester journeys, only for when I plan a longer trip together, eg to London. I do, however, have a senior railcard which I keep active for trips I make on my own.

 

[styles]

Groupsave to be fair, targets those families who would struggle to get value against the car. I see less justification for the duo offer, but then it's availability is so limited, it doesn't really register with me at all.

Except GroupSave is usually not worth it for families because it only discounts adult fares and only on groups of 3+ adults, whereas a Friends and Family Railcard discounts adult fares by the same amount and also discounts child fares by 50%. For a 2 adult 2 child typical family, GroupSave isn't even an option unless you intentionally buy a child and adult fare. For the F&F Railcard to make its money back the average fare saving needs to be a mere £8.75pp on average in this scenario, which is usually done on one trip. Guess how many parents take a look at rail fares without the F&F Railcard discount and think nah stuff that I'll drive though.

I doubt many groups of adults even know about GroupSave. In fact I've been on forum trips where we might've been able to save money with GroupSave but we haven't. It's a bit hard when so many forum members get staff travel etc though! I've certainly taken people on hiking trips and only remembered about GroupSave afterwards instead of buying a couple of Two Together Railcards. And I'm somebody who knows more than the average person about ticketing. Without me in that group they won't have even got the Two Together Railcard discount, and may even have just driven.

The added complication with GroupSave and the F&F Railcards is a lot of the operators also offer Kids for a Quid tickets, like EMR, Southeastern, and ScotRail. At which point you're probably best off getting a Two Together Railcard for the two adults then Kids for a Quid tickets for the children.

Southeastern even point this out on their GeoupSave page, except they fail to mention the Two Together Railcard:

If there are less than three adults in your group, however, it may work out cheaper to buy regular Off-Peak Tickets for the adults and Kids for a Quid Tickets for the children.

Doesn't it all just sound absurd when you start processing it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Apart from this being patently ludicrous in principle (let's apply it to all purchases and in the end the rich will have no money at all...) HMRC can't remotely do the job that they are asked to now, let alone create a joined up system for penalising richer travellers.

File with all the other batty ideas which we've seen over the decades

Note to other posters, the /s appendage to posts is lost on people of a certain generation

(It means the preceding prose was sarcasm)

 

[styles]

Note to other posters, the /s appendage to posts is lost on people of a certain generation

(It means the preceding prose was sarcasm)

I got the sarcasm but also wanted to insert a joke about Crapita

But seriously, don't give them ideas.

 

[yorksrob]

Except GroupSave is usually not worth it for families because it only discounts adult fares and only on groups of 3+ adults, whereas a Friends and Family Railcard discounts adult fares by the same amount and also discounts child fares by 50%. For a 2 adult 2 child typical family, GroupSave isn't even an option unless you intentionally buy a child and adult fare. For the F&F Railcard to make its money back the average fare saving needs to be a mere £8.75pp on average in this scenario, which is usually done on one trip. Guess how many parents take a look at rail fares without the F&F Railcard discount and think nah stuff that I'll drive though.

I doubt many groups of adults even know about GroupSave. In fact I've been on forum trips where we might've been able to save money with GroupSave but we haven't. It's a bit hard when so many forum members get staff travel etc though! I've certainly taken people on hiking trips and only remembered about GroupSave afterwards instead of buying a couple of Two Together Railcards. And I'm somebody who knows more than the average person about ticketing. Without me in that group they won't have even got the Two Together Railcard discount, and may even have just driven.

The added complication with GroupSave and the F&F Railcards is a lot of the operators also offer Kids for a Quid tickets, like EMR, Southeastern, and ScotRail. At which point you're probably best off getting a Two Together Railcard for the two adults then Kids for a Quid tickets for the children.

Southeastern even point this out on their GeoupSave page, except they fail to mention the Two Together Railcard:



Doesn't it all just sound absurd when you start processing it.

A national railcard available to all would be a lot more marketable than the current fragmented landscape of discounts.

 

[styles]

A national railcard available to all would be a lot more marketable than the current fragmented landscape of discounts.

Automatically applied discounts even more so.

 

[yorksrob]

Automatically applied discounts even more so.

Then you'd just discount everyone - nice but I don't see it happening.

 

[styles]

Then you'd just discount everyone - nice but I don't see it happening.

No you wouldn't, because there would still be criteria.

This has gone full circle now as that point's been made before so I think I'll leave it there.

 

[yorksrob]

No you wouldn't, because there would still be criteria.

This has gone full circle now as that point's been made before so I think I'll leave it there.

I think I've made the case why the discount should be available to all, so yes, let's wrap it up.

 

[Cell2025]

Note to other posters, the /s appendage to posts is lost on people of a certain generation

(It means the preceding prose was sarcasm)

Who can tell these days? There's a lot of daft ideas out there.

 

[jon0844]

No you wouldn't, because there would still be criteria.

Who checks this? Someone in a wheelchair gets a discount because they're obviously disabled? Fine. That is until TikTok is telling people to get a cheap wheelchair for cheaper travel.

And what happens to all the other people with a disability you can't see? Do you ask for proof? Do you just trust people so eventually everyone says they have a disability?

Remember Covid when everyone started to wear a sunflower lanyard to claim they couldn't wear a mask? That severely undermined the whole scheme that was intended to allow people to get some additional help without having to ask for it.

By all means make a disabled railcard cheaper, or free, but there has to be a criteria and that isn't decided at a gateline or onboard a train.

 

[styles]

Who checks this? Someone in a wheelchair gets a discount because they're obviously disabled? Fine. That is until TikTok is telling people to get a cheap wheelchair for cheaper travel.

And what happens to all the other people with a disability you can't see? Do you ask for proof? Do you just trust people so eventually everyone says they have a disability?

Remember Covid when everyone started to wear a sunflower lanyard to claim they couldn't wear a mask? That severely undermined the whole scheme that was intended to allow people to get some additional help without having to ask for it.

By all means make a disabled railcard cheaper, or free, but there has to be a criteria and that isn't decided at a gateline or onboard a train.

I addressed this in a previous comment but for the disabled Railcard, much like other disabled discount schemes, I think a national disability entitlement card is a better option.

At the moment if you want a rail discount you need a disabled Railcard, if you want a cinema discount you need a CEA card, if you want a music venue discount you often need an Access Card, if you want a National Trust discount you often want an Essential Companion card to speed things up, etc.

It would be a lot simpler if there was a national government-sponsored card for all of these things so that when I take my disabled relative out I don't have to dig for a few different bits of plastic depending on what we're doing.

That way there's no need for a Disabled Railcard or for rail staff to be able to recognise a legitimate looking PIP letter or comprehend an opticians' report etc.

I say that regardless of any changes to Railcards as it happens. I think we should've done it years ago.

 

[AlterEgo]

Who checks this? Someone in a wheelchair gets a discount because they're obviously disabled? Fine.

That is already the case!

Wheelchair user without a Railcard | National Rail

Special offer: Wheelchair user without a Railcard. The portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Krokodil]

Who checks this? Someone in a wheelchair gets a discount because they're obviously disabled?

Such a concession already exists, you don’t need a Disabled Persons' Railcard to be eligible for a discount.

 

[Haywain]

That way there's no need for a Disabled Railcard or for rail staff to be able to recognise a legitimate looking PIP letter or comprehend an opticians' report etc.

There's no need for that now, as the issue of Disabled Railcards is handled by a single office.

 

[blimmo]

I have noticed some other countries have disabled entitlements listed on their national IDs: often services will say anyone with F or whatever letter on their ID can get concessionary tickets. Obviously doesn't work as well for a country without a national ID though ofc we could issue the cards only to those with entitlement codes.

 

[styles]

There's no need for that now, as the issue of Disabled Railcards is handled by a single office.

An office operated by National Railcards, so rail staff?

We could cut that expense out of the rail system with a national entitlement card.

 

[Krokodil]

We could cut that expense out of the rail system with a national entitlement card.

Or just make ENCTS cards (and the equivalents in Wales/Scotland) the "Disabled Railcard", so long as they've got the yellow stripe (for disability) rather than the blue (old age). Bit more difficult with the Welsh ones though as those are the same whether you're disabled or a pensioner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or just make ENCTS cards (and the equivalents in Wales/Scotland) the "Disabled Railcard", so long as they've got the yellow stripe (for disability) rather than the blue (old age). Bit more difficult with the Welsh ones though as those are the same whether you're disabled or a pensioner.

I suspect that would cause uproar with some Railcard holders, as the Railcard is available to a far wider range of disabilities than ENCTS is, most notably anyone with any kind of hearing aid however minor the issue is. And it's just been widened yet further to boot.

 

[blimmo]

I suspect that would cause uproar with some Railcard holders, as the Railcard is available to a far wider range of disabilities than ENCTS is, most notably anyone with any kind of hearing aid however minor the issue is. And it's just been widened yet further to boot.

Expanding ENCTS to cover the wider range but showing the level of disability with some colour system would seem to be a pretty good system. Each service provider can choose what level they require for the discount (as councils already somewhat do for buses).

 

[styles]

Expanding ENCTS to cover the wider range but showing the level of disability with some colour system would seem to be a pretty good system. Each service provider can choose what level they require for the discount (as councils already somewhat do for buses).

Yes this is basically what I would propose. You have disability categories with coloured symbols or shapes on the card to make it easy to check.

 

[Haywain]

An office operated by National Railcards, so rail staff?

Maybe "rail staff" in the loosest sense (although I think that this may be outsourced), but specialised in what they do.